To the OP - Yes. Dwarves are terrible. Regardless of the mechanical advantages, the fact remains you need to be a dwarf to get them. 'Nuff said.
I can't favorite this enough!
"Bein' a dwarf is enaw ay an advantage in itself, 'at th' mechanical advantages almost make it shan."
Are dwarves terrible in PF?
Is there any RPG where dwarves are terrible? Or just one where they are not one of the best choices?
You get people who love dwarves, you get people who hate dwarves.
Originally I never even thought of playing a dwarf, but now they are basically my favourite race.
Currently I have a dwarven fighter and cleric in pfs. And I really enjoy playing them.
Just cannot pick between a barbarian or ranger for my 3rd.
Of course, Lineage II's depiction of female dwarves as cute girls does give them a little credit when needed, too. Not everyone's breakfast but serves well for me.
Are dwarves terrible in PF?Is there any RPG where dwarves are terrible? Or just one where they are not one of the best choices?
Melee/Wizard (predecessor to GURPS) is the only one I can think of. The chance to hit in that game was based on Dex, and Dwarves had a penalty to Dex in that game.
dwarven druids?
Feng Shui/Geomancy
by speaking to the earth, a dwarven druid, typically divines proper places underground for mining and construction among the dwarven community. spotting which veins are "cursed", spotting which veins produce "more ore" and which caves are "good for housing."
To be honest, my most memorable roleplaying moments were when I was playing a dwarf. Incidentally, dwarves are the race that have recieved the most attention lore-wise in my custom campaign world.
Norse dwarves? Check. Dino-riding wild dwarves? Check. Plus a few more clans I created.
I, personally, have always created and played my characters based on an idea, irregardless of the stats or combat ability.
I once played this dwarven fighter in the Sunless Citadel adventure. Even though he was the quintessential dwarven fighter (shield, dwarven waraxe, etc), he was FUN to play. His name was Sherman. Ended up fighting all those damned dire rats by himself, so he named his dwarven waraxe the dwarven name for "Vermin Bane." Snuck up on some goblins at the end of a hallway behind a barrier, so he THREW his waraxe and actually critically hit one...
Next time I play a dwarf, they will most likely be either a dwarven spell-less ranger from the north, or a stonelord paladin. SO much RP potential. Combat capability/stats/etc. be damned.
But as essentially said before... to each his own.
how often does the slow thing REALLY come into play anyway?
just build a dwarf for charging and take the racial feats from APG that support this and you will have one mean nasty charger.
Most of the time however, full bab's need to plant their feet to get the advantage of their class anyway... and everyone takes a 5 foot step the same way.
so in reality this is only an issue with out of combat, where the GM will likely just say, "you guys arrive in the mountain village of castle banana, sit down, have a nice meal and drink some ale, after you have finished your meal, the dwarf arrives"
Problem solved.
how often does the slow thing REALLY come into play anyway?
just build a dwarf for charging and take the racial feats from APG that support this and you will have one mean nasty charger.Most of the time however, full bab's need to plant their feet to get the advantage of their class anyway... and everyone takes a 5 foot step the same way.
so in reality this is only an issue with out of combat, where the GM will likely just say, "you guys arrive in the mountain village of castle banana, sit down, have a nice meal and drink some ale, after you have finished your meal, the dwarf arrives"
Problem solved.
not for their characters when the dwarf shows to find all the ale drank. Then they're gonna be thankful the dwarf has a 20 foot move.
not for their characters when the dwarf shows to find all the ale drank. Then they're gonna be thankful the dwarf has a 20 foot move.
They be foolish to think they could outrun the angry, sober dwarf. Best to leave a keg near the entrance with the dwarf's name on it so it will be a happy dwarf entering the festivities...
not for their characters when the dwarf shows to find all the ale drank. Then they're gonna be thankful the dwarf has a 20 foot move.They be foolish to think they could outrun the angry, sober dwarf. Best to leave a keg near the entrance with the dwarf's name on it so it will be a happy dwarf entering the festivities...
god help them if he has levels in barbarian.
how often does the slow thing REALLY come into play anyway?
just build a dwarf for charging and take the racial feats from APG that support this and you will have one mean nasty charger.Most of the time however, full bab's need to plant their feet to get the advantage of their class anyway... and everyone takes a 5 foot step the same way.
so in reality this is only an issue with out of combat, where the GM will likely just say, "you guys arrive in the mountain village of castle banana, sit down, have a nice meal and drink some ale, after you have finished your meal, the dwarf arrives"
Problem solved.
It is _really_ level and environment dependant. We play mostly low levels, and it's not rare for a combat to start say 200ft+. between party and closest opponents; there's a huge difference between running at 80ft and 120ft then (or, if they can have cover, between double moving 40 and 60). Of course, if comparing non-fighter characters in medium armor dwarves are as fast as the faster races, and a dwarf in heavy runs at 80 while a human in heavy (without armor training) runs at 60.
But once flight and other means of fast transportation are available, or if making a ranged build out of it, it matters less.
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As far as core races go, Dwarves are actually really good. I mean, it's REALLY hard to beat the human's bonus feet. But, well, let's break it down cause I'm bored and why not.
Darkvision is simply beautiful, and only dwarves and half-orcs of the core get it. A bonus to saves against magic is amazing, since spellcasters and monsters with spell-like abilities become much easier to resist. Especially since Dwarves get bonuses to Con and Wis, which boosts Fortitude and Will, so Dwarves get really good saves to begin with. Poison is a nice touch.
Bonuses against trip attacks is situation-based, but a +4 bonus is substantial nonetheless. The hatred and dodge bonuses are also heavily dependent on the campaign, but it does make fighting certain common low-level enemies easier to fight. Appraise and Stonecunning are equally rare, but still, +2 to Perception for stone-based traps is good for rogues, +2 to Appraise for gemstones is pretty good for hoards. Finally, Slow and Steady is unfortunate, but, ah well.
All in all, dwarves are based on the campaign, but they have a smattering of interesting bonuses. And their penalty stat is to Charisma. Compared to the benefit from the bonus to Con and Wis, they make great melee characters. And they make amazing druids too.
Dwarves have the highest number of Race Build Points of any Core Race, per the ARG Race Designer rules,
in fact putting them beyond the 'Standard' power level which all other Core Races conform to.
So by Paizo's own official metric, they are the most powerful Core Race.
Tengu, Tieflings, Aasimar, and Suli outdo them though (in Race Build Points).
Dwarves have the highest number of Race Build Points of any Core Race, per the ARG Race Designer rules,
in fact putting them beyond the 'Standard' power level which all other Core Races conform to.
Race points mean nothing when you can through strategically placed flaws and careful ability choice, build a 10 point race that outshines a 25 point race.
Design Manager
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As far as core races go, Dwarves are actually really good. I mean, it's REALLY hard to beat the human's bonus feet. But, well, let's break it down cause I'm bored and why not.
Darkvision is simply beautiful, and only dwarves and half-orcs of the core get it. A bonus to saves against magic is amazing, since spellcasters and monsters with spell-like abilities become much easier to resist. Especially since Dwarves get bonuses to Con and Wis, which boosts Fortitude and Will, so Dwarves get really good saves to begin with. Poison is a nice touch.
Bonuses against trip attacks is situation-based, but a +4 bonus is substantial nonetheless. The hatred and dodge bonuses are also heavily dependent on the campaign, but it does make fighting certain common low-level enemies easier to fight. Appraise and Stonecunning are equally rare, but still, +2 to Perception for stone-based traps is good for rogues, +2 to Appraise for gemstones is pretty good for hoards. Finally, Slow and Steady is unfortunate, but, ah well.
All in all, dwarves are based on the campaign, but they have a smattering of interesting bonuses. And their penalty stat is to Charisma. Compared to the benefit from the bonus to Con and Wis, they make great melee characters. And they make amazing druids too.
Don't forget the free martial/exotic weapon profiencies! Classes that don't have martial weapons get a selection of martial weapons added to their possible arsenal, and classes that do get martial weapons get a surprisingly large selection of exotice weapons that they don't have to spend feats on, like the Dwarven Waraxe, Dwarven Longhammer, Dwarven Urgrosh, Dwarven Boulder Helmet, etc.
The proficiencies usually amount to +1 damage, which is of course useful but IMO not that big of a deal (elven proficiency with longbow is far more useful, especially for for example clerics). The dwarven longhammer is the exception, it's a really cool weapon in that it's the only bludgeoning reach weapon.
I wonder how a dwarven rogue with a splash of fighter, with a dwarven longhammer, bludgeoner and the stuff that buffs nonlethal damage would do.
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It may be my play group and luck, but in my experiences, dwarves are very much a PITA to kill. I've played as one a few times, played in a group with a dwarven sorcerer, and GMed for a party with two dwarves. So.... Avoiding a particularly long series of anecdotes, mainly due to too much time passing since my last game with a dwarf to recall fine details, I'll just say that dwarves are, in play, some of the toughest, meanest, most terrifying SOBs in the core races... and quite a bit of the ARG too.
My dwarf, specced for background and plotline (primarily centered around defense, base fighter -> Stalwart (Dwarven!) Defender), not only outlasted but out-obliterated most encounters. Above and beyond our human barbarian, aasimar sorcerer, tiefling oracle, and ifrit gunslinger (total initiative fiend). Most of them were optimized to the point of near munchkinism. Now, perhaps that was just my (potentially) superior knowledge of battlefield tactics (and what kinds of combat tactics our GM ran (total IRL war fanatic)), perhaps the other players weren't that great at prioritizing what's what in combat (despite the fact that all of them besides me and one other were only really playing for the combat), but the results were the same. Arngier Blackstone trounced encounters through sheer survivability when most fell.
As an aside, this was in a home game. I have yet to manage to drag my sorry rump over to a PFS game, as much as I would like to.
I always found dwarves bland but filling - their racial traits are excellent, but they're kind of boring. I guess I haven't seen the right player play the right dwarf character yet.
I always found dwarves bland but filling - their racial traits are excellent, but they're kind of boring. I guess I haven't seen the right player play the right dwarf character yet.
Sadly, all dwarves are the same.
Yes, I know monks suck
Zen Archers don't really, but they're barely even monks anymore though.
Yes, I know monks suck
They don't. A few things have been fixed, but essentially the Monk gives up some DPR for better mobility and defenses. It's a trade off. Of course at the very highest levles all martial fall behind full spellcasters.
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The dwarven longhammer is the exception, it's a really cool weapon in that it's the only bludgeoning reach weapon.
There's also the lucerne hammer.
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I'm playing a dwarf fighter/ranger in a game where we rolled our ability scores.
We were given a generous score generation system -- roll 7 stats, keep best 6, do that a second time, then keep the best set you like.
Everyone else in the group rolled average to above average stats (equivalent to about 20 point buy or a little higher).
My best set was equivalent to 15 point buy... AFTER I added my ability score bonuses. (Folks who play PBPs with me will not be surprised by this sort of die roll luck.)
But I am quite holding my own, regardless. The high Constitution is definitely worth it -- Con is NEVER useless. The Wis bonus helps with saves typically weak for my fighter class.
And the bonus to saves versus spells... has saved my skin many, many, many, many times.
The skill bonuses have actually come in useful many times as well, and the bonus to CMD versus trip and bull rush saved me from a VERY nasty trap.
And yes, the 20 foot movement is not great, but the fact that I can wear whatever and carry whatever and still have that speed is nice.
Don't care about the proficiencies, my dwarf's weapons are a pick (she's an ex miner) and whatever she can use with Catch Off Guard.
And if she hears anyone badmouth dwarves again, Hratha Aleslinger will shove a bar stool so far up your... well, let's just say, she'll be sure you'll never be without a place to sit. Which is good, given how your ability to walk will be compromised. ;)
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Dwarves are strong enough that a dwarf sorcerer doesn't sound insane to me.
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Dwarves are strong enough that a dwarf sorcerer doesn't sound insane to me.
Assuming CRB only, this can be done. There are many spells where saving throws do not matter. As a Dwarf, you would be best going after these kind of spells.
SMI-IX
Black Tentacles
Hand of X
X Wall and Wall of X
Magic Missile
Touch rays
You could even pick a favorite school and take Spell Focus and I think you'd still be in the game.
Dwarves make Good Empyreal Sorcerers too. which was the bloodline tax for dwarves.
Dwarves have massive bonuses to Fortitude and Will Saves 85% of the time, and even without the glory of old trait, if you take Steel Soul. you have +5/+4/+5 which is equivalent to the favored class bonus of a 15th level human barbarian, 18th level if they take glory of old. at least if they take the saves that matter.
in fact, Dwarven Barbarians are Saving Throw Kings
the classes a Dwarf is a little weakened at are
Sorcerer (Except Empyreal Sorcerers)
Oracle
Summoner
Bard
Paladin (Steel Soul Cancels out Cha Penalty for saves, being behind 2
LOH uses hurts though)
Ninja (without a rogue talent tax or 4 monk levels)
Classes the Dwarf Truly Excels at
Druid; (Screw Talking to Animals, you are either a caster or a pouncer. make up some stuff about Feng Shui or Geomancers and you are golden)
Empyreal Sorcerer; (High Will Save, Decent Fort; not as squishy as most Sorcs, you miss the favored class bonus and paragon surge, but you have surviveability)
Inquisitor; (Inquisitors don't need charisma. they do just fine without it. conversion inquisition turns dwarves into amazing inquisitors.)
other classes the dwarf does well at
anything without a charisma focus that benefits from the save boost and extra hit points.
The Pit-Touched Sorcerer looks like a promising, if unconventional, approach to the dwarf sorcerer as well. You would definitely have plenty of hit points.
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I wouldn't say Dwarven Paladins are behind 2 uses of LoH, unless you compare them to some Race with +2 STR/DEX and CHA, like some Aasimar and Nagaji, compared to most Paladins they are only 1 use down.
Putting build points into CHA for Saves just isn't actually that efficient compared to what Dwarves get for free/really cheap, it's not really worthwhile for the few Spells with Save DCs... Dumping CHA to just enough to cast (if you retain Paladin spells) and benefitting from Steel Soul/Glory/+2WIS/CON is practically as good as a 22 CHA, while letting you put build points into stats that actually matter every round of every combat, and if you are 2-handing your weapon you get 50% more damage on top. That realistically compensates for the lower boost from CHA to-hit for the very few Smites/day you get, the +Level damage is the same, and you can wear Heavy Armor with less penalty (and get a +4 AC bonus vs. Crit Confirmation via Dwarven Gear) also all day long vs. the Smite AC boost.
Likewise for Ninja, it's only losing 1 Ki vs. most classes that don't have a Racial CHA bonus,
and Dwarven Save bonuses are VERY nice on a Class with poor Fort and Will Saves.
I don't really see Bard or Summoner as being a problem for Dwarves, although there's some Save or Suck, there's alot more that aren't and the core schticks of the classes don't really depend on it, so not having an uber-amped CHA is not as significant penalty, in fact, as they don't really fully leverage CHA as much as say, a Sorceror or Oracle, characters that max out CHA to get a 20 CHA will just be weaker in other areas than a Dwarven Bard/Summoner, while those other areas are just as relevant and competitive with the few spells with Save DCs. And as RJ said, even Sorcerors and Oracles are not impossibly gimped for Dwarfs, the Save bonus is just as relevant, and they can choose to focus on specific schools and non-Save or Suck spells.
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Oracle
Though you might think that a Dwarf Oracle might be bad, consider Dwarven Spellscar Oracle.
Take Glory of Old Trait, Steel Soul Feat, and the Mysitc Null Revalation
This is base +7/+7/+7 vs Spell and Spell-like Abilities, before Ability score Modifiers. That is a LOT, at level 1.
Continuing with the revelations of the Spellscar, you have Eldritch Resistance, giving your dwarf Acid/Cold/Fire/Electricity/Sonic Reisitance (2/5/10/20 at Level 1/5/11/17). Spell Reisitance Revelation gives you SR+CL at level 11. Magic Penetration increses your caster level dispel magic effects by 2, 4 at level 9.
Overall if you are a Dwarven Spellscar Oracle, you are somewhat of the "Caster-Bane" of the party. Hard to hurt with spells, hard to hit with spells, forceful debuffer.
Race points mean nothing when you can through strategically placed flaws and careful ability choice, build a 10 point race that outshines a 25 point race.Dwarves have the highest number of Race Build Points of any Core Race, per the ARG Race Designer rules,
in fact putting them beyond the 'Standard' power level which all other Core Races conform to.
This is all that's needed to be said when people bring up the ARG Race Design "rules". ^^
Just throwing in to praise Dwarven Druids-- I love my dwarven Cave Druid, yes I do.
Played her in PFS and her very first game was played up, thankfully she survived, and with the big chunk of change from that first encounter bought stoneplate, next feat choice was heavy armor, and she spent the next 4, 5 levels consistently having the highest AC in the party by a huge margin. She's at 8 now and holding around a 28 AC which is still usually highest or second highest.
I'm a rock wall of you-can't-hit-this, usually, and with a 20 Wis I'm cranking out druid spells for fun and profit. Oh do I ever love dwarves.
This is all that's needed to be said when people bring up the ARG Race Design "rules". ^^Race points mean nothing when you can through strategically placed flaws and careful ability choice, build a 10 point race that outshines a 25 point race.Dwarves have the highest number of Race Build Points of any Core Race, per the ARG Race Designer rules,
in fact putting them beyond the 'Standard' power level which all other Core Races conform to.
i don't use Race Points; i eyeball everything and see whether or not it looks good, takes about 5 minutes, i make a rough comparison to something as powerful as dwarves or whatever.
I'm making a dwarven Inquisitor for an upcoming Runelord group:
Darkvision + Slow and Steady + Rock Stepper + Mountaineer + Stubborn
and against giants: Defensive Training + Giant Hunter
All of that with the travel domain for +10ft speed, means medium/heavy armor at a speed of 30ft and little trouble in ruins/stony terrain:
"ignore difficult terrain created by rubble, broken ground, or steep stairs when taking a 5-foot step"
stony terrain includes pretty much all dungeons... that pretty much only leaves forests as a source of trouble.
Dwarves are awesome for many divine-based melee characters... inquisitor, cleric or ranger with big twohanded weapon? heck, yes!
Not to forget the racial favored class bonus to inquisitors:
Dwarf Favored Class: Add +1/2 to the inquisitor's level for the purpose of determining the effects of one type of judgment.
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