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The Blade Sense ability from the Knife Master archetype states:
Blade Sense (Ex): At 3rd level, a knife master is so skilled in combat involving light blades that she gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made against her with light blades. This bonus increases by +1 for every three levels, to a maximum of +6 at 18th level. This ability replaces trap sense.
Question: what counts as a "light blade" for the purposes of this ability? Specifically: does a rapier count?
It's not clear to me whether the ability refers [1] to the "light blade" category from the Fighter's Weapon Training ability (in which case the rapier would count), or [2]to any light weapon with a blade (in which case the rapier would not count).
Blades, Light: dagger, kama, kukri, rapier, sickle, starknife, and short sword.
You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a rapier sized for you, even though it isn't a light weapon.
[EDIT: It looks like there's a third option for what "light blades" *might* refer to, [3] tothe following list of specific weapons from the archetype's sneak attack ability: "a dagger, kerambit, kukri, punching daggers, starknife, or swordbreaker dagger." See this post for elaboration.]
Very good question. For simplicity's sake, I'd probably go with the Fighter's Weapon Training list.
Good question. Personally, I would go with weapons listed as light on the weapons charts not the fighter weapon training list.
The Blade Sense ability from the Knife Master archetype states:
Blade Sense (Ex): At 3rd level, a knife master is so skilled in combat involving light blades that she gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made against her with light blades. This bonus increases by +1 for every three levels, to a maximum of +6 at 18th level. This ability replaces trap sense.Question: what counts as a "light blade" for the purposes of this ability? Specifically: does a rapier count?
It's not clear to me whether the ability refers to the "light blade" category from the Fighter's Weapon Training ability (in which case the rapier would count), or to any light weapon with a blade (in which case the rapier would not count).
Blades, Light: dagger, kama, kukri, rapier, sickle, starknife, and short sword.You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a rapier sized for you, even though it isn't a light weapon.
It seems pretty clear to me--it's referring to the fighter's weapon group.
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It seems pretty clear to me--it's referring to the fighter's weapon group.
I wouldn't be surprised if that were true.
But here's what causes me to hesitate: it seems strange to me that a Rogue archetype would refer to something internal to the Fighter class and not explicitly point out that that's what it was doing.
I can't think of any other instance in which the Weapon Training groups are used as mechanical reference by abilities external to the Fighter class. (But I only ever play casters, so probably just have missed it.)
Can you (or anyone else) point out a rule or two where this happens?
It seems pretty clear to me--it's referring to the fighter's weapon group.I wouldn't be surprised if that were true.
But here's what causes me to hesitate: it seems strange to me that a Rogue archetype would refer to something internal to the Fighter class and not explicitly point out that that's what it was doing.
I can't think of any other instance in which the Weapon Training groups are used as mechanical reference by abilities external to the Fighter class. (But I only ever play casters, so probably just have missed it.)
Can you (or anyone else) point out a rule or two where this happens?
I was fairly certain that the fighter weapon groups get referenced a lot in that way by different classes. Perhaps the Magus or an archetype thereof? I'll have to look into it more.
But even if it wasn't a thing that happened much, I'm pretty sure it was written by someone who did just that (or was used to 4e, where all weapons are categorized like that for feat/power purposes).
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It seems pretty clear to me--it's referring to the fighter's weapon group.I wouldn't be surprised if that were true.
But here's what causes me to hesitate: it seems strange to me that a Rogue archetype would refer to something internal to the Fighter class and not explicitly point out that that's what it was doing.
I can't think of any other instance in which the Weapon Training groups are used as mechanical reference by abilities external to the Fighter class. (But I only ever play casters, so probably just have missed it.)
Can you (or anyone else) point out a rule or two where this happens?
Why fret over it? Just go with the fighter weapon group. There is no where in the book that the term "light blades" is used other than the fighter weapon groups and that list is perfectly reasonable. There is no need to take up the Design Team's time by FAQing this one.
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[Quick post not fully elaborated. I'm sure you can fill in the blanks.]
(1) I'm asking the question because it came up at the table during last night's game. Our Knife Master was attacked with a rapier and we weren't sure whether he'd get the Blade Sense bonus. (2) Turns out that there is a place in the rulebook where "light blade" might be used for something other than the fighter weapons group–in the archetype itself. See below.
(3) "The same choices can be selected/divined by considering the weapon charts, finding which ones are both on the 'Light' weapon lists, and yet have blades." – The rapier is the exception here, and a couple of the weapons listed in the archetype (see next point) might also be exceptions.
(4) Check out the archetype itself. See how unclear it is. Also notice that we now have a third option: the specific list of weapons here. All this "light blades" talk isn't really specified.
The knife master is a trained killer who specializes in close-up combat and the wave and weave of knife fighting. In her hands, daggers and other similar light blades become truly deadly instruments..
Hidden Blade: A knife master adds 1/2 her level on Sleight of Hand checks made to conceal a light blade. This ability replaces trapfinding.
Sneak Stab (Ex): A knife master focuses her ability to deal sneak attack damage with daggers and similar weapons to such a degree that she can deal more sneak attack damage with those weapons at the expense of sneak attacks with other weapons. When she makes a sneak attack with a dagger, kerambit, kukri, punching daggers, starknife, or swordbreaker dagger (Advanced Player's Guide 178), she uses d8s to roll sneak attack damage instead of d6s. For sneak attacks with all other weapons, she uses d4s instead of d6s. This ability is identical in all other ways to sneak attack, and supplements that ability.
Blade Sense (Ex): At 3rd level, a knife master is so skilled in combat involving light blades that she gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made against her with light blades. This bonus increases by +1 for every three levels, to a maximum of +6 at 18th level. This ability replaces trap sense.
Rogue Talents [...]
Advanced Talents [...]
(5) But the reference to Sleight of Hand pushes us back toward "light weapon with a blade."
You can hide a small object (including a light weapon or an easily concealed ranged weapon, such as a dart, sling, or hand crossbow) on your body [...] A dagger is easier to hide than most light weapons [...]
So: (A) light weapon with a blade; (B) fighter light blades group; (C) the specific weapons listed here (dagger, kerambit, kukri, punching daggers, starknife, or swordbreaker dagger).
Yes... Except, one thing commonly overlooked, is that a rapier is not a light weapon. It can be treated like one for the purpose of weapon finesse, in that it is specific additional option for Finesse, but it is listed separate from the generic category of 'light weapons', both under the Finesse feat on on weapon charts, and fighter weapon groups.
So, no, I'd have to say that a Knife Master does not get the bonus against a rapier.
I'd have to disagree here. If there weren't already a rules term of "light blade", I might agree with you that light blade means a bladed light-weapon, but if the term already exists, no sense interpreting that term to mean something else.
The equipment section of the rules spells out what are considered light weapons. As the dagger master isn't a fighter, this is the list I'd go with. No rapier, but a lot more than the few items listed under sneak attack.
Look at the question another way. If something is too good to be true, then it is like not true. If you were to get the bonus to AC against a rapier, then a rapier would also qualify to be used by the knife master as a weapon of choice. Many players would then opt to play that guy.
There something else about light weapons that is never boldly stated. They are all short. The are up close and personal weapons, or thrown. A rapier doesn't really fit in with them.
If you were to get the bonus to AC against a rapier, then a rapier would also qualify to be used by the knife master as a weapon of choice. Many players would then opt to play that guy.
No, because the Sneak Attack buff (the only buff anyone cares about at all in the archetype) has a specific list of weapons. The rest is just crappy nonsense to balance out the awesome d8 sneak attack dice.
Daggers are awesome weapons. The River Rat trait makes them better than shortswords, and their ability to be thrown I think easily equals the slightly wider critical threat range of the rapier, especially since Rogues don't care a lot about crits, since their main source of damage (sneak attack) doesn't multiply on a crit.
I am 100% confident that the light blades mentioned refers to the only place in the rules that defines the term "light blades," rather than any other kind of arbitrary definition you or I might come up with.
The equipment section of the rules spells out what are considered light weapons. As the dagger master isn't a fighter, this is the list I'd go with. No rapier, but a lot more than the few items listed under sneak attack.
Look carefully, the term isn't 'light weapon' it's 'light blade'.
Light blade is also a defined game term, and it's defined differently as mentioned a few times above.
The equipment section of the rules spells out what are considered light weapons. As the dagger master isn't a fighter, this is the list I'd go with. No rapier, but a lot more than the few items listed under sneak attack.Look carefully, the term isn't 'light weapon' it's 'light blade'.
Light blade is also a defined game term, and it's defined differently as mentioned a few times above.
You are absolutely right, I missed that distinction. I FAQ'd the OP. If it were my game I think I'd rule that it would be the subset of "Light Weapons" that are bladed, as opposed to maces, etc.
If it were my game I think I'd rule that it would be the subset of "Light Weapons" that are bladed, as opposed to maces, etc.
Let me push this to its logical conclusion. I think we can all agree that swords and normal daggers count, but where do we draw the line on this? These are all light weapons--tell me which of these, if any, you'd consider to be a "light blade" and why:
Barbazu Beard (literally described as a blade)
Bladed Boot (it's called a blade, but would it really translate?)
Boarding axe/throwing axe/handaxe (are axes "blades?" why or why not?)
Cestus (it has spikes and blades on the knuckles, does that count?)
Hook Hand (shaped very similarly to a sickle)
Kama (blade, but attached at an unusual angle)
Knuckle Axe (combined punching dagger/axe issues)
Punching Dagger (it's a dagger, but it's not used like a normal blade)
Razored Kobold Tail Attachment/Ratfolk Tailblade/Sea-Knife (all blades, but wielded on odd body parts)
Sickle (it's a blade, but it's not shaped right)
Spiked Armor/Spiked Gauntlet/Spiked Shield (do spikes count? why not?)
Tekko-Gaki (literally described as a fan of blades, and it is light)
Barbazu Beard (literally described as a blade)I'm not familiar with this weapon, but if it has a blade, sure.
Bladed Boot (it's called a blade, but would it really translate?) Not a light blade. My interpretation, reading the ability, is that we're talking about held weapons. The boot may have a blade, but it feels more like armor spikes.
Boarding axe/throwing axe/handaxe (are axes "blades?" why or why not?) Going to go with no. I have never encountered an axe being referred to as a blade in literature, etc.
Cestus (it has spikes and blades on the knuckles, does that count?) No it does not.
Hook Hand (shaped very similarly to a sickle) Yes to this one. You're wielding it with your hand, and its got a blade.
Kama (blade, but attached at an unusual angle) Yes.
Knuckle Axe (combined punching dagger/axe issues) Not sure, but I'd probably err on the side of 'yes' to favor the player in this case.
Punching Dagger (it's a dagger, but it's not used like a normal blade) Definitely a light blade.
Razored Kobold Tail Attachment/Ratfolk Tailblade/Sea-Knife (all blades, but wielded on odd body parts) Hrm. As I mentioned with the bladed boot, I feel like a "light blade" needs to be wielded in a hand but...I suppose if its wielded with a tail but similar to the way you'd wield it in the hand, I could go with it.
Sickle (it's a blade, but it's not shaped right) I'm not a stickler for shape, it's a light blade.
Spiked Armor/Spiked Gauntlet/Spiked Shield (do spikes count? why not?) No. These aren't blades. They aren't held weapons and spikes definitely aren't blades.
Tekko-Gaki (literally described as a fan of blades, and it is light) I'm completely unfamiliar with what this weapon is supposed to look like or how it's wielded, so no comment. :)
Looking over my responses and then rereading the OP, I think for me the issues are such:
This is a knife master ability. So the light blade familiarity of the Blade Sense ability comes from the PC's knowledge/experience with knives. The "light blades" being referenced, then, should be held weapons with blades, wielded something like knives are (though there's a bit of leeway here).
Barbazu Beard (literally described as a blade)I'm not familiar with this weapon, but if it has a blade, sure.
It is a blade that hangs from your chin--it's a beard blade. If you don't think a boot blade counts, why would this?
Boarding axe/throwing axe/handaxe (are axes "blades?" why or why not?) Going to go with no. I have never encountered an axe being referred to as a blade in literature, etc.
What does an axe have on it, if not a blade? What makes a Kukri different from an axe? Both are wielded with the same motion.
Hook Hand (shaped very similarly to a sickle) Yes to this one. You're wielding it with your hand, and its got a blade.
You're not wielding it in a hand at all, it's replacing a hand. Why is this ok, but blades attached to your hands (like a spiked gauntlet) are not?
Kama (blade, but attached at an unusual angle) Yes.
How is this wielded differently from an axe? Or, more relevantly, a light pick? Is a light pick a "light blade?"
Knuckle Axe (combined punching dagger/axe issues) Not sure, but I'd probably err on the side of 'yes' to favor the player in this case.
So, an axe is not a light blade, and a blade on my fist (Cestus) is not a light blade, but an axe blade on my fist is?
Punching Dagger (it's a dagger, but it's not used like a normal blade) Definitely a light blade.
Why do you treat this differently from a spiked gauntlet or bladed cestus? A punching dagger is just a big spike. It's not as if you ever slash with it, and you literally wield it by punching. Is it just the word "dagger"?
Sickle (it's a blade, but it's not shaped right) I'm not a stickler for shape, it's a light blade.
You are a stickler for blade shape, though, because axe blades don't count (unless they're on your knuckles).
Spiked Armor/Spiked Gauntlet/Spiked Shield (do spikes count? why not?) No. These aren't blades. They aren't held weapons and spikes definitely aren't blades.
I definitely hold a spiked shield, and I see no reason a spike isn't a blade. It's sharp--you stab people with it. A punching dagger is just a huge spike and that counts.
Tekko-Gaki (literally described as a fan of blades, and it is light) I'm completely unfamiliar with what this weapon is supposed to look like or how it's wielded, so no comment. :)
One might think google (or more relevantly, the d20pfsrd) is broken from your comments ;)
Tekko-Gaki are claws, essentially. They are blades strapped to your wrist and worn over your knuckles, like someone wearing a Wolverine costume.
Looking over my responses and then rereading the OP, I think for me the issues are such:
This is a knife master ability. So the light blade familiarity of the Blade Sense ability comes from the PC's knowledge/experience with This is a knife master ability. So the light blade familiarity of the Blade Sense ability comes from the PC's knowledge/experience with knives. The "light blades" being referenced, then, should be held weapons with blades, wielded something like knives are (though there's a bit of leeway here).
How are knives wielded, then? The Kukri counts, but it's wielded like an axe. The punching dagger counts to you, but it's wielded like, well, a punch, and it's just barely "held" as much as it is "worn." A hook hand isn't held and isn't wielded anything like a dagger is (and while we're on the subject, neither is a starknife, but I bet you think that counts).
I mean no disrespect, I promise you, but looking over your responses, I think the issues for you are arbitrary and based almost entirely on taste and "feel."
And the point of all this is--if you try to make "light blade" mean anything other than the fighter weapon's group or maybe the weapons listed for Sneak Stab, you're just asking for problems. It's not worth the aggravation, and there's no way the game was written with this kind of a guessing game in mind. We have a definition, why not use it?
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I mean no disrespect, I promise you, but looking over your responses, I think the issues for you are arbitrary and based almost entirely on taste and "feel."
It's funny you should say that. I mostly responded the way I did because you wanted me to go through each and every one of that long list, so I figured I shouldn't be lazy and give you what you were asking for. In actual play I'd be more likely to simply rule light blades as any "light weapon" that doesn't do bludgeoning damage. That seems the simplest, least arbitrary ruling that is also (mostly) consistent with the "feel" you mentioned. In that case things like axes are in! :)
And the point of all this is--if you try to make "light blade" mean anything other than the fighter weapon's group or maybe the weapons listed for Sneak Stab, you're just asking for problems. It's not worth the aggravation, and there's no way the game was written with this kind of a guessing game in mind. We have a definition, why not use it?
I think if they meant to use the fighter list, they'd have either reprinted it under knife master, or at the very least referenced it in the description. I find it hard to believe they meant us to use the fighter weapon group list without any indication of such. The "light weapon" categories in the equipment section, however, are far more common.
Of course there are--as you've worked hard to point out--issues with using that list as well. :)
Hopefully the question gets FAQ'd.
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I mean no disrespect, I promise you, but looking over your responses, I think the issues for you are arbitrary and based almost entirely on taste and "feel."It's funny you should say that. I mostly responded the way I did because you wanted me to go through each and every one of that long list, so I figured I shouldn't be lazy and give you what you were asking for. In actual play I'd be more likely to simply rule light blades as any "light weapon" that doesn't do bludgeoning damage. That seems the simplest, least arbitrary ruling that is also (mostly) consistent with the "feel" you mentioned. In that case things like axes are in! :)
And the point of all this is--if you try to make "light blade" mean anything other than the fighter weapon's group or maybe the weapons listed for Sneak Stab, you're just asking for problems. It's not worth the aggravation, and there's no way the game was written with this kind of a guessing game in mind. We have a definition, why not use it?I think if they meant to use the fighter list, they'd have either reprinted it under knife master, or at the very least referenced it in the description. I find it hard to believe they meant us to use the fighter weapon group list without any indication of such. The "light weapon" categories in the equipment section, however, are far more common.
Of course there are--as you've worked hard to point out--issues with using that list as well. :)
Hopefully the question gets FAQ'd.
^ This is basically my position at the moment.
If anyone can think of a place in the rules (external to fighter) that the fighter weapon groups are used as a mechanical reference it might incline me more in that direction. But if someone's pointed this out I missed it.
I'm curious what answer we'll get if they pick it up for FAQ.
@mplindustries
In answer to which of the light weapons I would call bladed, the answer is simple. All light weapons that are slashing.
@mplindustries
In answer to which of the light weapons I would call bladed, the answer is simple. All light weapons that are slashing.
Ok, so Punching Daggers, Switchblades, and Short Swords are not light blades, but a Barbazu Beard and a Scorpion Whip are?
Every possible ruling on this is going to be inconsistent and problematic, unless you:
1) Create a full list of weapons that count (rather than a general rule).
2) Use the full list called "light blades" that we already have.
I concede the point. Also, I prefer your option 1. I am prejudiced against the rapier being on the light blade list.
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tl;dr: bump! :-P
Alright. Looking at those feats I'm still going to hold to my opinion that the ability refers to or should refer to "light weapons with a blade" (to answer your questions, mplindustries, I'd go with "light weapons that deal piercing and/or slashing damage") rather than the fighter weapons group or the specific list of weapons given in the archetype's sneak attack ability.
But that's really just what feels right to me. Going with the fighter weapon group is a reasonable ruling. Insofar as I'm really resisting it (recognizing that any one of these answers is defensible in the absence of an FAQ answer), I think it's just out of orneriness: it irritates me to think that the archetype might be so poorly written as to refer to something internal to an entirely different class, something not generally used as a point of reference, without specifying what it's doing. But I guess the archetype is awful unclear any way you take it, so this isn't a real reason to hold onto the answer I want to hold onto.
But since I *do* feel like holding onto it (acknowledging that it's hardly an ironclad, irrefutable, you're-a-fool-if-you-think-otherwise position), let's play the game of rationalizing my gut this-is-how-it-ought-to-be feeling. So here's how I look at the examples Kazaan has provided (thanks again for those, by the way).
I've been asking for examples that satisfy two criteria, to support the "fighter weapon group" answer: (1) that the example not explicitly call out that it's referring to fighter weapon groups; (2) that the example be external to the fighter class. The point of asking for examples that meet these two criteria is that only such examples can give strong support to the idea that the fighter weapon groups are a general point of mechanical reference, such that the Knife Master archetype can drop talk of "light blades" and that be considered clear or acceptable rules-text. I am resisting or rejecting the thought that fighter weapon groups are this sort of general point of mechanical reference, and asking for evidence to the contrary.
I don't take the suggested feats as sufficient evidence to push me from the position I want to hold. Because:
(A) The two feats that do satisfy the not-explicit criterion, Martial Versatility and Martial Mastery, don't satisfy the external criterion. They both have fighter levels as a prerequisite, so reference to "weapon groups" can easily be understood to be "fighter weapon groups."
([A.i] Also, "weapon group" is not quite strong enough anyway, since I don't know that that language shows up anywhere else, or of anything else in the rules it could conceivably refer to–not the case with "light blades," as is drawn out in this thread. What is really needed is reference to something like "close weapons" or "heavy blades.")
(B) The two feats that do satisfy the external criterion, Defensive Training and Demoralizing Lash, don't satisfy the not-explicit criterion. They're very clear about what they're doing! That's what I'm requiring of the Knife Master archetype, if it intends to refer to the fighter weapons group. All it would have taken would be a quick parenthesis: "... she gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made against her with light blades (as specified in the fighter weapons group)."