Design Manager
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Sooo..... Any thoughts on the updates to the Archer Lord, Chris?
I should note, I ran it tonight in our Rise of the Runelords campaign with the proposed adjustments, and it was super fun. Of course, most people like their own ideas.... But the party seemed to have fun with it, and alternating between ranged dpr and tanking was a blast. I've honestly never played a class where I took Shield Focus and Manyshot on the same character. Opened up a lot of interesting dynamics, even with burning a feat on Shield Proficiency since I wasn't sure if proficiency with the buckler would count to qualify you for the shield feats.
Yes, lots of thoughts on it and on the Warder in general. I'll get back to you on it a little later though. Lots of work on the base warder to do tonight!
A good friend of mine is helping me iron out some of the CoC issues and thematic elements with the class right now and once I've gotten those iron out (basically a toss up between CoC and really, just making a class that's designed to tank actually be able to do it right and do it well), I'll release a new version of Warder as well as a Final Alpha of Stalker.
-X
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So yesterday was a mess and I got next to nothing done. So, yeah.
But I did run into a little something interesting and perhaps unintended. The way Stance of the Turtle Knight is currently worded is confusing and probably broken. You can adopt a stance at any time in your turn with a swift action so You could be in this stance. End it by moving and then adopt it again at the end of your movement and regain the benefit.
It should probably be reworded to something like, "you cannot gain the benefit of this stance on any turn in which you have voluntarily moved, even with a 5' step."
That way it doesn't end, allowing you to just readopt it and you can't change to it for a benefit after moving.
Edit: Also a Tiger just grappled my Warder. Can I use maneuvers in a grapple? I assume so. How does being in a grapple affect something like Iron Monger's Throw or Shell Shock?
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Dang, can't edit anymore.
Does Iron Axe Kick actually use the damage from my kick, making it an unarmed attack and thus non-lethal without Improved Unarmed? Abilities like this are always confusing. If it's unarmed it should say so. Maybe it should just be Iron Axe Strike and let initiators use any weapon from the available discipline groups.
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Summary of the level 10 Warlord in the Arena.
The Gargoyle wasn't much of a threat. Tossing away enemies is a really awesome and fun way to reduce or eliminate their attack potential. Shell Shock and Iron Monger's Throw are among my most favorite maneuvers for any class.
The stupid Crusaders actually managed to stun a PC for once but it was the one least affected by it since he was unable to drop his shield or cestus.
The big cats grappled the Warder but a quick change to Stance of the Turtle Knight meant that the tiger couldn't hold on. Which led to one of the questions above about the feasibility of even doing that.
The General also got tossed about so he was barely fighting. Totally awesome.
Thoughts:
1. Stance of the Turtle Knight is really awesome, though it needs a bit of a wording change (see above). It does lead me to wonder when initiators can change stances or use maneuvers. The rules state that the PC must be "able to move." Does that mean not paralyzed or does it include entangled, grappled and so forth?
2. I really like the maneuvers that throw oppoennts but I do wonder about them in a grapple, too. Do they break the grapple? Can they be used at all? What about flying enemies?
3. Extended Defense in confusingly worded. Against the big cats I used it with Snapping Riposte and it worked amazingly because they each missed three times. But then I re-read Extended Defense and it says something about using the encounter to "repel" the attack. Can you only use it with counters that cancel attacks? If so, it's pretty poop because those are definitely the worst counters for a PC meant to have a through the roof AC.
4. Clad in Steel is such a weak bonus that I consistently forgot to use it. I'd rather see an ability that let him move faster in heavy armor. Or anything that I'd actually find wort remembering, I guess.
Edit: Scratch the moving faster thing. I forgot about the Mithral Turtle Stance of whatever that's called. But something here. Or change the stance to allow a free shield bash when you use a full attack or maneuver (or something offensive like that) and allow Warders to ignore the movement penalty as a passive ability.
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... I'll release a new version of Warder as well as a Final Alpha of Stalker.
Is there a time table for this, you think? I'm wondering whether I should hold off a couple days before doing the level 15 Warder.
Just as an attention thing, I've got another writer that Andreas and I have brought in to assist with the Warder's thematic elements, specifically on Code of Conducts. Mr. J. Ripley, better known as Lord_Gareth on the GitP forums, will be assisting me there, as well as providing a hard-line mechanical view point to assist on some of the balance elements and mechanics for the Warder as well as the Stalker and Warlord base classes.
If you're unfamiliar with his work, here's a couple of links [link1] [link2] to a few things he's written. Just wanted to keep people abreast of what's going on!
-X
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So I'm looking over the Dragoon to maybe playtest because I'm secretly a total geek for mounted combat. But I'm not sure how balanced the template adding bit is. Cavaliers don't get anything that awesome and I'm not sure how much the Dragoon really needs it compared tohow much we don't need cries of" cheese!"
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Alright, so the Dragoon just did his thing. He's pretty damanably strong. Action Economy is a powerful thing and the extra 3 attacks from El Horso (That's his name; I don't know why) were welcome.
The gutslug died to one big charge.
I missed the charge against the Bucs but the horse and Heavy Handed Blow won the fight. By the way, the flavor text for Heavy Handed Blow is ridiculous. I have no idea what it's trying to say. Stuff about being mounted or not and such.
One Huecuva died to a charge and the other to Heavy Handed Blow.
The General landed a couple lucky hits but died to death.
Some notes:
1. I think he's probably going to be more powerful than the base Warder. Action economy is king. The archetype might need to give up some other warder features.
2. There is no such thing a light lance as it is called in Dragoon training. I assume you mean regular lance. Hardly mattered to me since I needed to use a spear so I could TWF with my shield but still.
Edit: I'm rethinking the TWF, though. I didn't really use it and it's a huge feat sink. I'll probably just use a long sword and save my feats for things that will benefit my maneuvers.
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One Huecuva died to a charge and the other to Heavy Handed Blow.I guess you could say that that was one Huecuva fight.
But is the Dragoon strong because of the mount, or because of mounted combat in general being super strong, and adding a discipline to it makes it ridiculous? If it's the latter, something else is going to need to be changed, because anyone can buy a mount if it's not a class feature for them.
Well we could certainly test it but I think it's in large part down to class features. Not any character can use Piercing Lance and any old nag you buy isn't going to progress as an animal companion.
I'd also like to note that because of the total +4 to AC from the Advanced Template the level 10 Dragoon has a lower AC than his horse. Damn thing doesn't even have magic armor.
Also 7 intelligence. So about as smart as a barbarian.
Edit: That much int allows serious cheese. The horse can now make a charging overrun and with Elephant Stomp still get a hoof attack in and stop in front of the enemy so the Dragoon can lay into his prone AC. Just killed the Gargoyle with a big charge and the AoOs for standing up.
So yesterday was a mess and I got next to nothing done. So, yeah.
But I did run into a little something interesting and perhaps unintended. The way Stance of the Turtle Knight is currently worded is confusing and probably broken. You can adopt a stance at any time in your turn with a swift action so You could be in this stance. End it by moving and then adopt it again at the end of your movement and regain the benefit.
It should probably be reworded to something like, "you cannot gain the benefit of this stance on any turn in which you have voluntarily moved, even with a 5' step."
That way it doesn't end, allowing you to just readopt it and you can't change to it for a benefit after moving.
Edit: Also a Tiger just grappled my Warder. Can I use maneuvers in a grapple? I assume so. How does being in a grapple affect something like Iron Monger's Throw or Shell Shock?
Does Iron Axe Kick actually use the damage from my kick, making it an unarmed attack and thus non-lethal without Improved Unarmed? Abilities like this are always confusing. If it's unarmed it should say so. Maybe it should just be Iron Axe Strike and let initiators use any weapon from the available discipline groups.
I will look into Turtle Knight's stance on fixing the wording.
That's a good question. Maneuvers don't need concentration, so I would say yes, if you have an appropriate maneuver, go for it.
Yes, it uses your unarmed for Iron Axe Kick. I'll fix that.
Archer Lord is pretty sweet, but any chance whatsoever of seeing a discipline or archetype, or even just plain equipment, that would actually make crossbows or slings a viable choice for martial characters?
I mean, while you're in the business of fixing huge swaths of martial-vs-caster disparity and all.
I can't fix what's broken in the core system, but I can try to provide options to improve that situation if the context is correct. I.e. some Solar Wind love for example that might help those. It's possible.
Small thing but Mirror Shield isn't much of a mirror if it can't reflect the spell back. Maybe it should be Deflecting Shield and a higher level Mirror Shield could be added. Veiled Moon has something similar.
So I'm looking over the Dragoon to maybe playtest because I'm secretly a total geek for mounted combat. But I'm not sure how balanced the template adding bit is. Cavaliers don't get anything that awesome and I'm not sure how much the Dragoon really needs it compared tohow much we don't need cries of" cheese!"
If nobody mentioned it yet, Hastened Burst from Piercing Lance doesn't specify to whaty the +20 circumstance bonus applies, though we can assume it is speed.
Are we all under the impression that combat trained horses have primary hoof attacks? Statting up a horse is stupid confusing.
Noted on Mirror Shield.
I wasn't sure either, so I wanted to see if it was too much on the templates. I'll also remove Mighty, I could have -sworn- that wasn't 3rd party.
I didn't want to do what Cavaliers did and just static improve the mount and mostly improve themselves, I wanted to make the horse awesome. But I don't think it's panning out. Too much. I will fix Hastened Burst.
Alright, so the Dragoon just did his thing. He's pretty damanably strong. Action Economy is a powerful thing and the extra 3 attacks from El Horso (That's his name; I don't know why) were welcome.
The gutslug died to one big charge.
I missed the charge against the Bucs but the horse and Heavy Handed Blow won the fight. By the way, the flavor text for Heavy Handed Blow is ridiculous. I have no idea what it's trying to say. Stuff about being mounted or not and such.
One Huecuva died to a charge and the other to Heavy Handed Blow.
The General landed a couple lucky hits but died to death.
Some notes:
1. I think he's probably going to be more powerful than the base Warder. Action economy is king. The archetype might need to give up some other warder features.
2. There is no such thing a light lance as it is called in Dragoon training. I assume you mean regular lance. Hardly mattered to me since I needed to use a spear so I could TWF with my shield but still.
Edit: I'm rethinking the TWF, though. I didn't really use it and it's a huge feat sink. I'll probably just use a long sword and save my feats for things that will benefit my maneuvers.
Thanks for the feedback! I'll put it to good use while I'm updating the Sects. I got a green light on the base warder changes :)
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I will get to questions slowly and when I can over the next week. My other job is keeping me really busy so please be patient with me as I won't be able to post during my work hours much for the next week or so.
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You know I actually really liked that you used a 3pp template. You'll have to probably reprint it but the awesome thing about open content is that you can.
And the templates don't necessarily need to go but they do need some cost associated with them. See what they can replace from the standard Warder. Bonus feats or something. Alternatively, there are other ways to improve the mount. Bonus feats or bonuses to some stats.
It costs two feats for ranger animal progression, if that helps with the balancing calculations.
I was referencing the relative cost of so called powerful horse companions. You stated that the action economy benefit was too much, I was simply specifying what the exact cost of a powerful animal companion would be.
Two feats.
Edit: The two feats in question are from the faiths and philosophies book that was recently released if your wondering.
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That helps, thanks.
But it doesn't really address the issue because two feats for an animal companion seemed overpowered as all hell. I can't think of two feats that offer anything like that kind of DPR, much less all the other good stuff.
And I'm not saying a horse is so powerful, it's the combination of a horse, the discipline, and the class abilities. Getting rid of the advanced template will help because it was slightly insane. I could make a ranger with a horse companion and see if it compares but it might be a hard sell. Sure, anyone can do a mounted charge but tacking on an extra six d8s is something else.
Getting a mount with a bonus feat that you don't take armor check penalties to ride while you're on at the price of Adaptive Tactics which I never used in my playtest and never wanted to is cheap considering the benefits. Really cheap. Getting two templates for free after that is crazyballs.
Finally, I'm also not saying that we need to burn the archetype at the stake as a heretic. I'm just reporting that in my playtest it performed better than the base Warder and probably a bit better than the Warlord, Stalker, or Magus. But I still have more tests to do so we'll see what I think at the end.
Yeah, doing my own examination, either I'd need to tick down most of the maneuvers for PL damage wise, or I'd need to specifically state that when using using PL maneuvers you don't double/triple/murderwithfire with a lance on a mounted charge.
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I wasn't even multiplying the maneuver damage with Spirited Charge. I assumed it was like a crit and wouldn't multiply.
No, I was just using Bronze Lancet Charge and Bronze Lancer's Edge together for a combined total of 2d8+d8+d6+Str for an average damage of 21 on a charge. And you can basically do that at level 1. A level 3 bad guy with a d10 hit die and 12 Con will die to that. If he's got toughness or favored class bonus he'd be down to 1.
Edit: Also, one idea I had for making the mount better without using a template is something like this:
Shared Prowess (Ex): At 8th level and every 4 levels thereafter, the Warder chooses one feat that he has. As long as he is riding his mount, the mount may also use those feats. For feats that select a specific weapon like Weapon Focus or Improved Critical, the Warder may choose one of his mount's natural attacks to benefit from the feat. This replaces the Warder's Bonus feats at 8th, 13th, and 18th level.
A lance should double/triple the base weapon damage, not any other forms of damage, such as precision damage.
Careful! It'll double/triple the non-bonus damage dice damage. The 'base weapon damage' is the 1d8 only (see Vital Strike), not the 1d8+strength mod + others.
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I think the issue may be one of synergy. Other characters don't have the ability to so easily multiply damage. They can't even use vital strike which is less strong with a maneuver. Maybe the Dragoon needs some more penalties like 1 less maneuver readied in the same way that some magus archetypes lose a spell.
That helps, thanks.
But it doesn't really address the issue because two feats for an animal companion seemed overpowered as all hell. I can't think of two feats that offer anything like that kind of DPR, much less all the other good stuff.
And I'm not saying a horse is so powerful, it's the combination of a horse, the discipline, and the class abilities. Getting rid of the advanced template will help because it was slightly insane. I could make a ranger with a horse companion and see if it compares but it might be a hard sell. Sure, anyone can do a mounted charge but tacking on an extra six d8s is something else.
Getting a mount with a bonus feat that you don't take armor check penalties to ride while you're on at the price of Adaptive Tactics which I never used in my playtest and never wanted to is cheap considering the benefits. Really cheap. Getting two templates for free after that is crazyballs.
Finally, I'm also not saying that we need to burn the archetype at the stake as a heretic. I'm just reporting that in my playtest it performed better than the base Warder and probably a bit better than the Warlord, Stalker, or Magus. But I still have more tests to do so we'll see what I think at the end.
I'm not sure your being at all objective when you state things like two feats for an animal companion are overpowered as hell. If an animal companion is too much for the relative cost, then the ranger would be far too powerful. we know that is not the case because we have thousands of hours of empirical data that refutes the claim.
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You must be quite the fisherman because that is a whopping red herring.
Animal companions are powerful additions to a character but the top tier classes are top tier because of full casting. An animal companion is just what lifts the Ranger out of the low tier doldrums where the fighter and monk live. That and some more skills and limited casting. But granting that to something that already is in tier three may get it close to two.
You've failed to address my actual claim which was that there are probably not two other feats that offer the DPR and other benefits of an animal companion.
leadership (obviously)
power attack (effectively improves DPR in a comparable way and only costs one feat)
style feats (specifically crane style, but others can be competitive)
Celestial Obedience
The list could go on, but I think if you sit down and think about it you will agree that there are quite a few options.
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Leadership is a good example. I didn't think of it because it's banned in my games.
Power attack does not generally match the DPR of a companion except in the case of really bad companions. Do the math.
I am not aware of any style feats which grant you a bonus to hit(high ground or flanking), scent, extra squares in which you threaten, and extra damage. I mean that's at least 4 feats worth of stuff and I haven't even listed every benefit of an animal companion.
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Currently re-writing Iron Tortoise and finishing sect rewrites between OT shifts and family time. Sleep is for the weak.
-X
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Design Manager
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So, little nit-picky things first:
Defender of the Realm replaces Greater Aegis twice (Mount, and Shared Prowess).
You took away my Archer Lord, and I am displeased.
Defensive is good, but almost holy-crap-too-good unless the idea was that no one, ever, is supposed to make an Acrobatics to avoid an AoO around him.
Armiger's Mark- Was this bit necessary? "The target thus marked remains marked for a number of rounds equal to the warder's
Intelligence modifier." Given that he also has limited uses per day this seems unnecessary and somewhat limiting. You could conceivably have a scenario where a Warder burns all of his Marks against a single opponent. Would it be possible to change the duration to something more along the lines of "The Mark remains in effect until the enemy is defeated or the Warder fails to make an attack against the target during that round"?
Things I like- Pretty much everything else. This is a way more polished and cohesive class than the one we saw the last time around, and the mechanics have a much finer edge on them.
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I need to get some real work done but I'm hoping this afternoon I'll find some time to review the new document. There are a few misused words I've already spotted and the short description of Flurry Strikes says unarmed attacks but the full entry does not. Which is in error?
I'm going to remake my Warder and redo his fights. I'll also remake the Dragoon (now a Defender of the Realm).
I'm sad to see that the Empyrean still can't use a shield but I've resigned myself to it and am somewhat appeased by Shield of Blades.
I'll have more later. Probably a lot more. Essay length.
So, little nit-picky things first:
Defender of the Realm replaces Greater Aegis twice (Mount, and Shared Prowess).
You took away my Archer Lord, and I am displeased.
Defensive is good, but almost holy-crap-too-good unless the idea was that no one, ever, is supposed to make an Acrobatics to avoid an AoO around him.
Armiger's Mark- Was this bit necessary? "The target thus marked remains marked for a number of rounds equal to the warder's
Intelligence modifier." Given that he also has limited uses per day this seems unnecessary and somewhat limiting. You could conceivably have a scenario where a Warder burns all of his Marks against a single opponent. Would it be possible to change the duration to something more along the lines of "The Mark remains in effect until the enemy is defeated or the Warder fails to make an attack against the target during that round"?Things I like- Pretty much everything else. This is a way more polished and cohesive class than the one we saw the last time around, and the mechanics have a much finer edge on them.
I just kept having the same issue of trying to make murdering people from afar defensive. Sorry! But they'll turn up again with the Warlord, as well as the Dragoons renamed as Lancers for them as well to give mounted options to the warlord.
Armiger's mark is going to be book keeping regardless. I might take a page from Iron Guard's Glare and just make it actively used all the time or something, but that's kinda strong.
-X
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Warder
Defensive Focus: Might be worth adding an "if higher" as regards replacing his Int mod with Dex mod. Empyreans will suffer from this. Adding Class level and Int to CMD is to much, I think. I'd say half level should be fine. I'd be happy with just Int. Any bonus is a bonus.
Aegis: I like the change here. This is the kind of stuff I expect to see from a guardian class.
Armiger's Mark: I don't have a problem with the duration. If Armiger's Mark is being used, there are probably several allies in reach also beating the bejesus out of the enemy. It might not last as many rounds as my Int mod. Besides, even when it turns off, they're probably still benefiting from Aegis.
Clad in Steel: Well, it's better than the poopy DR. It's just half of Armor Training now. Which is definitely better if not terribly innovative.
Adaptive Tactics: Awesome. Just awesome. So much more interesting than feat swapping. However, it is markedly better than the similar Stalker ability. That's not necessarily a bad thing but it is a thing.
Extended Defense: Much better wording, more polished.
Steel Defense: Another cool and flavorful ability. I'm totally investing in an Adamantine Shield.
Born of Steel: Another good and flavorful ability. However, I'd like to see it swap positions with Stalwart. Many games don't get to 19 and I'd rather have a new ability than one I could get on another class.
Deathless Defense: Awesome. Exactly the kind of capstone you expect to see from a protector.
Empyreal Guardian
Weapon Proficiency: The bastard sword is a martial weapon. Is the intention to let them use it 1-handed? Is there better wording for that?
Empyrean Training: This is kind of lackluster. Just a boring bonus to attack and damage. I feel like there has to be something cooler. I'll think on it.
Shared Counter: Awesome. If used with Extended Defense, can you counter an attack against yourself and any and all adjacent enemies?
Shield of Blades: This mostly appeases me as regards the lack of a shield on this Warder.
Grace of Blades: I would be tempted to switch to TWF with two Bastard Swords when I got this ability. I'm fairly certain he'd be more dangerous to himself at that point, though...
Defenders of the Realm
Mount: Good changes here with the loss of features to compensate.
Shared Prowess: Whoever came up with this is a genius! It does replace a feature that's already been replaced, though. It should probably replace Adaptive Tactics and Tactical Acumen.
Mounted Partnership: Good ability.
Now that the Warder doesn't get an initiative boost, this guy could really use one. He doesn't need Clad in Steel as much since he already ignores armor check on ride.
Next giant post will be for maneuvers.
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Design Manager
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I just kept having the same issue of trying to make murdering people from afar defensive. Sorry! But they'll turn up again with the Warlord, as well as the Dragoons renamed as Lancers for them as well to give mounted options to the warlord.
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-X
I just feel like bringing the Archer Lords over to the Warlord is... redudant. I can already make an archer character with the Warlord exactly as he is. I really liked having a ranged defender option. You know who normally needs defending? Casters. You know where you normally don't find them? In melee. A class archetype that actually provided bonuses to the people who need them was cool. Enough so that we're probably going to just keep pretending that Archer Lord is a Warder archetype. Every archer in every class basically does the same thing. They all have some combination of Precise Shot, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Deadly Aim, and Clustered Shots, probably Snap Shot as well. Playtest it a little. There is amazing synergy between the Warder's primary abilities and ranged combat, and you'll discover in play that a ranged Warder actually has more opportunities to do defender-y things when he doesn't have to be on the front line. For a real world equivalent, let em put it to you this way: I've been in the military, and have friends in the police force. Having someone covering your back with 10 to 30 feet of perspective on a situation and a ranged weapon is infinitely preferable to having a guy with a melee weapon and the same field of vision as you by your side for keeping you alive and well. Translating fantasy elements and themes into that reality is something that the Archer Lord does very well when paired with the Warder.
I really have zero interest in an Archer Lord archetype for the Warlord. I can already do all the archery stuff you could ask for with that base class. He's got Solar Wind and ranged Gambits, I mean what value are you really going to be able to add to the class with an Archer archetype when it already is an extremely effective archer as is? Sub out a few abilities that I'd rather keep for a bonus feat? Take away its ability to switch hit by dumbing down and refocusing its proficiencies?
The Archer Lord on a Warder chassis actually brought something to the game that wasn't there before, and that there was a desire for. An Archer Lord Archetype on a Warlord chassis lets a class do something it was already perfectly capable of doing, so why bother?
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Broken Blade
Flurry Strike: As mentioned above, the short description says unarmed but the full entry does not.
Iron Axe Kick: This still doesn't specify that it is an unarmed attack.
Iron Monger's Throw: This is still substantially weaker than Flying Shield Bash.
Steel Axe Kick: This should also clarify that it is an unarmed strike. Or I'm just going to make a cestus for my foot.
Spinning Frenzy Rush: you could save some word count by just saying that each successful attack deals an additional 4d6 damage.
Iron Palisade
I liked it better when it was a turtle. Turtles are cool. Palisades are dumb. All sawn logs and crap.
Iron Shield: Can I just say again how much I hate counters in this discipline that negate attacks. You know what also negates attacks? Super, stupid high AC.
Tactical Trip: This is just a better version of Leg Sweeping Hilt. I have trouble seeing why, like Iron Monger's Throw and Flying Shield Bash, Iron Pallisade keeps having better versions of essentially the same maneuver at the same level.
Snapping Riposte: More counters like this one, please.
Defensive Palisade Stance is still broken. The way it is currently worded, I can move and then adopt the stance again in the same turn as long as I still have a swift action. That's dumb.
I'll get to Piercing Lance tonight or tomorrow. Then we test!
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I really have to back Ssalarn's comments, my favorite aspect of the Archer of the White Steppes is it did something no other archer class or archetype has in the game.
As he says, take away the class abilities and all that's left is the same handful of feats and options. Very rarely does an archer branch off and if it does its really only at post 12 levels when there is more options for branching out.
The archer of the white steppes brought in a mechanic that allowed the archer to defend those closest to him which usually meant protecting the Wizard or cleric or bard which often times can be one of the squishiest members of the party. I thought it was an interesting and unique take and really made an archer option that was a little more fresh. All archers are gonna get over-powered at a certain level, even a small amount of system mastery the path to dealing mass amounts of damage with a bow is pretty easy to follow, I liked seeing that more defensive nature to one. It also helps because one of the weaknesses of the archer is someone getting up close and inside their range, that is until they get snapshot and combat reflexes but the Warder defenses really helped make for a tankier archer.
+1 to Sslarn.
What did the Archer of the White Steppes do that no one else could do?