Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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Wouldn't quite a lot of this be resolved by not requiring the GM to initial anything on the ITS, and only fill in the chronicle sheet as normal? The only thing remaining on the chronicle sheet are the numbers in Gold Spent (section S on p35, I believe).
The whole idea with the ITS was to make tracking item expenditure easier, which it seemed to do before this idea came up.
Go back to the very first post made in this thread that I typed up this morning. Please read the second bullet point.
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Go back to the very first post made in this thread that I typed up this morning. Please read the second bullet point.
I thought I read elsewhere that the Items Purchased section of the chronicle had been removed?
At this point I think I'll just to wait for the final 5.0 guide before trying to grok this.
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Go back to the very first post made in this thread that I typed up this morning. Please read the second bullet point.I thought I read elsewhere that the Items Purchased section of the chronicle had been removed?
At this point I think I'll just to wait for the final 5.0 guide before trying to grok this.
Year 5 chronicles have been changed some. Look at pg 35 of the 5.0 guide for an example.
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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Go back to the very first post made in this thread that I typed up this morning. Please read the second bullet point.I thought I read elsewhere that the Items Purchased section of the chronicle had been removed?
At this point I think I'll just to wait for the final 5.0 guide before trying to grok this.
Download Guide 5.0, look at the Chronicle sheet that is shown there, and you will see they have been removed.
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Mike, can you clarify? Do purchases need to be itemized on Chronicles, or just on the ITS?
My understanding is that I have to note every purchase twice. Kyle's is that I itemize on the ITS and just put the purchase amount on the Chronicle. The latter makes a lot more sense, but is not what I'm getting from the first post in this thread (or from the ongoing conversation up to this point).
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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You make a quick note on the Chronicle, in the Notes section about what you spend GPs on. Whether that be "Adventuring goods - 30 GP" or you list out all the chalk, twine, pins, and needles, is up to you. You list something similar on the ITS if you are a completist.
If you buy five different potions, you can list all five individually or you can write "5 potions - XXXX GP." On the ITS, you would list specifically what each of those 5 potions are.
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You make a quick note on the Chronicle, in the Notes section about what you spend GPs on. Whether that be "Adventuring goods - 30 GP" or you list out all the chalk, twine, pins, and needles, is up to you.
If you buy five different potions, you can list all five individually or you can write "5 potions - XXXX GP." On the ITS, you would list specifically what each of those 5 potions are.
Okay, but let's say I'm buying a Potion of Fly, a Headband of Charisma +2, and ... I don't know ... an Adamantine Weapon Blanche. Total is 4850 (I think). On the ITS, that three lines, no problem. Can I just write "new gear = 4850" on the Chronicle?
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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Okay, but let's say I'm buying a Potion of Fly, a Headband of Charisma +2, and ... I don't know ... an Adamantine Weapon Blanche. Total is 4850 (I think). On the ITS, that three lines, no problem. Can I just write "new gear = 4850" on the Chronicle?You make a quick note on the Chronicle, in the Notes section about what you spend GPs on. Whether that be "Adventuring goods - 30 GP" or you list out all the chalk, twine, pins, and needles, is up to you.
If you buy five different potions, you can list all five individually or you can write "5 potions - XXXX GP." On the ITS, you would list specifically what each of those 5 potions are.
As long as the Chronicle number is properly notated on the ITS sheet, then sure.
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As long as the Chronicle number is properly notated on the ITS sheet, then sure.Okay, but let's say I'm buying a Potion of Fly, a Headband of Charisma +2, and ... I don't know ... an Adamantine Weapon Blanche. Total is 4850 (I think). On the ITS, that three lines, no problem. Can I just write "new gear = 4850" on the Chronicle?You make a quick note on the Chronicle, in the Notes section about what you spend GPs on. Whether that be "Adventuring goods - 30 GP" or you list out all the chalk, twine, pins, and needles, is up to you.
If you buy five different potions, you can list all five individually or you can write "5 potions - XXXX GP." On the ITS, you would list specifically what each of those 5 potions are.
Hot damn, that makes so much more sense. I thought we had to itemize in both places! And I think that was the primary source of contention.
Thanks!
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I just has a scary thought.
I am going to have to start photo-copying my ITS - I can see handing it to some judge at a CON for him to sign - getting distracted and not getting it back. Or worse - getting the WRONG ONE. Putting it in my PC folder and in the rush, not discovering the error for days or weeks and then"... who the hecks ITS do I have here? And where's mine?"How the heck do I fix THAT?
Is it any worse, or any more likely, than the GM taking your Chronicles to do a quite audit and not giving them back?
Actually, it's better. If, as I think at the moment, ITSs don't need to be signed and mostly reflect information on the Chronicles, they could be recreated if necessary.
If this stuff can be found "on the Chronicle Sheet" then why do we have the ITS to begin with? If you lose Chronicle Sheets you can always go back to the Paizo website to see what you ran and when, and validate claims about level and what-not. Lose the ITS and you lost your gear purchases.
I don't know if it's worse or not.
I know you are long gone now Mike. But when you get back, can you let us know if Kyle's altered ITS sheets are ok to use.
I really like the layout of them better, and how he has sheets separated depending on the type of equipment.
Also, another question, and I'm sorry if this has been answered already, but how does the pricing work for crafted items in regards to the 25 GP cut off?
For example, I have an Alchemist, would the full price of an Antitoxin (50 GP) be counted for being above 25 GP and therefore listed on the ITS, or is it counted at the crafted 1/3 cost and then not be included on ITS?
The same question would apply with the ammo for guns.
But I'll be honest, the more I think about it, I feel the 25 GP is a bit high for a cut off, as there are quite a bit of Alchemical items below 25 gold that will add up and could make a good sized differential on your gold compared to items owned/expended.
I would probably actually move it more down to 10 GP.
Whatever you end up deciding, I plan to list everything on my ITS, with the exception of the very basic adventuring gear.
Developer
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So...is it too late to get the ITS split into two pages? One for normal items and an entire page for wands (which is basically any multi use items, from stacks of alchemist fire, potions and scrolls)? Seriously, with just 4 slots, I'm gonna run out of ink so fast that it's not even funny.
In the short-term (read: pre-Ge Con), I think it's fair to say it's too late; there's just a day left to get done everything else for the convention, and I still have a prestige point clarification on the to-do list for everyone's reading pleasure. In the mid-term (post-Gen Con), this is something we can look into.
So in the short-term, then, let's see how the present model works out, and in those weeks, we can incorporate whatever changes seem appropriate. Trust me--we're discussing this as much as you are.
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I'd rather see the minimum related to the PC level... something like PC level Squared... so 5th level guys report 25 gp items. but 11th level don't even bother with something 100 gp.
but that's just me...
It might be useful to say that a PC spends level * 10 GPs on non-trackable items per scenario as standard.
As long as the Chronicle number is properly notated on the ITS sheet, then sure.Okay, but let's say I'm buying a Potion of Fly, a Headband of Charisma +2, and ... I don't know ... an Adamantine Weapon Blanche. Total is 4850 (I think). On the ITS, that three lines, no problem. Can I just write "new gear = 4850" on the Chronicle?You make a quick note on the Chronicle, in the Notes section about what you spend GPs on. Whether that be "Adventuring goods - 30 GP" or you list out all the chalk, twine, pins, and needles, is up to you.
If you buy five different potions, you can list all five individually or you can write "5 potions - XXXX GP." On the ITS, you would list specifically what each of those 5 potions are.
The only problem that I can see with having a single notation for all gear bought that scenario is that it will require players to drag along all of their old ITSs, and it wouldn't really make it convenient to consolidate items onto one sheet.
One way to possibly alleviate that is to have all major purchases listed on the chronicle sheet, with a separate line for miscellaneous adventuring gear. Example:
MW Scimitar upgraded to +1: 2000 gp
Potion of Fly: 750 gp
Misc adventuring gear: 152 gp
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As long as the Chronicle number is properly notated on the ITS sheet, then sure.Okay, but let's say I'm buying a Potion of Fly, a Headband of Charisma +2, and ... I don't know ... an Adamantine Weapon Blanche. Total is 4850 (I think). On the ITS, that three lines, no problem. Can I just write "new gear = 4850" on the Chronicle?You make a quick note on the Chronicle, in the Notes section about what you spend GPs on. Whether that be "Adventuring goods - 30 GP" or you list out all the chalk, twine, pins, and needles, is up to you.
If you buy five different potions, you can list all five individually or you can write "5 potions - XXXX GP." On the ITS, you would list specifically what each of those 5 potions are.
The only problem that I can see with having a single notation for all gear bought that scenario is that it will require players to drag along all of their old ITSs, and it wouldn't really make it convenient to consolidate items onto one sheet.
One way to possibly alleviate that is to have all major purchases listed on the chronicle sheet, with a separate line for miscellaneous adventuring gear. Example:
MW Scimitar upgraded to +1: 2000 gp
Potion of Fly: 750 gp
Misc adventuring gear: 152 gp
But now we're documenting everything twice, which is a lot of extra work for no real benefit.
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Important info for everyone that:
- wants a form fillable ITS
- wants specific cosmetic changes done to the ITS
- wants to have a condensed, expanded, etc ITS
You are now free to customize your ITS as you see fit.
The use of an ITS will become mandatory in Season 5, but the use of the Paizo designed and released ITS will not be mandatory. You are free to design and use your own ITS provided they list the same information in relatively the same format/layout.
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Please reconsider making ITS a mandatory requirement. I would like to think that most PFS players keep track of their inventory in some fashion already. Imposing an additional obligation to maintain an additional ITS (or multiple ITSs) for each PC is an added obligation on each player.
I can appreciate that some players do not keep track of their inventory in a fashion which is clearly and easily audited, and the new ITS requirement is aimed at these folks. But why impose an additional requirement on all the other folks who already maintain healthy records?
Would a requirement in the Guide to have "all players maintain clear and organised inventory records in a manner which is easily audited" suffice?
Some have commented that it doesn't take very much time to fill out an ITS "X minutes for a level Y PC" etc. But this is an ongoing mandatory requirement per PC, per scenario/module. All that additional time adds up to hours, and to save, what? 4 minutes during an audit that may not happen all?
Please ask yourself these questions before making the ITS requirement "live"
How does this additional ITS requirement make the game more fun?
And why does the solution for what should be a little problem lead to increasing the workload on ALL the players?
Is PFS about having fun or filling out forms forms and more forms? If not, why add one more now?
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The main point is that the ITS isn't really supposed to add more work. Instead of writing your purchases on your chronicles, you'll now write them on the ITS. The additional paperwork shouldn't be more than 10 seconds per session per player.
And yes, I know that some people aren't tracking purchases on their chronicles now. Unlike the requirement to always make purchases in front of the GM, which is currently ignored by a vast majority of the player base, the requirement to track purchases on the chronicles is one that I'd assume at least half of players actually do. And because it serves a good purpose (once again, unlike the rule to make purchases in front of a GM), it's one that everyone should do.
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Not2Fear, I do not believe it adds more reporting...or not much more. Players are already supposed to be doing this bookeeping, just on their character sheets. This moves that tracking to one, uniform formet. It makes it easier to track, and easier for GMs to double check. This, in turn, means that people are more likely to follow the rules regarding proper tracking of consumables and other bought items.
This, in turn, makes the game more fair. For many people, that means more fun, as NN959 states after your post.
N N 959, regarding honesty, I have GM'd 57 tables of PFS, and many more that were not PFS. I've only had 2...maybe 3 cheaters. The vast majority ARE honest. The challenge is that a lot of them are not accurate, or have misunderstanding of rules. That is why I am one of the ones backing better and more consistent tracking, GM review of sheets, etc. I do 10-15 minute spot checks at the beginning of each session, and I generally only sign chronicles where the math and the such are completely filled out. In any given day, I find at least one error such as illegal point buys on attributes, illegal feats, missed items, etc. One time I found a player who was missing thousands of gold from one of their chronicle sheets!
The value add of these sheets, IMHO, is that they encourage better tracking and easier reviews, which will help us things to be a bit more consistent.
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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Please reconsider making ITS a mandatory requirement. I would like to think that most PFS players keep track of their inventory in some fashion already. Imposing an additional obligation to maintain an additional ITS (or multiple ITSs) for each PC is an added obligation on each player.
I can appreciate that some players do not keep track of their inventory in a fashion which is clearly and easily audited, and the new ITS requirement is aimed at these folks. But why impose an additional requirement on all the other folks who already maintain healthy records?
Would a requirement in the Guide to have "all players maintain clear and organised inventory records in a manner which is easily audited" suffice?
Some have commented that it doesn't take very much time to fill out an ITS "X minutes for a level Y PC" etc. But this is an ongoing mandatory requirement per PC, per scenario/module. All that additional time adds up to hours, and to save, what? 4 minutes during an audit that may not happen all?
Please ask yourself these questions before making the ITS requirement "live"
How does this additional ITS requirement make the game more fun?
And why does the solution for what should be a little problem lead to increasing the workload on ALL the players?
Is PFS about having fun or filling out forms forms and more forms? If not, why add one more now?
Adds up to hours? Really? What experiences do you have or have witnessed that writing a one sentence note on one sheet, and a list of items purchased (which is already in place) on another, add up to hours of work?
Please advise me of how great this extra workload is for ALL players. I'm curious what your actual experience is and what you have observed in all of these hours of extra workload.
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Remember that you're supposed to have been doing that all along, minus the ITS.
This is the point.
It's not that what's new is particularly onerous. It's that: why do we think that this new thing is suddenly going to make people do all the things that they were already supposed to be doing? When GMs are already handing out pre-signed chronicle sheets without looking at anything on them, how does any new set of procedures (simplified or otherwise) address that they aren't supposed to be doing that?
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I'll come out and say that, with the changes, I like ITS a lot. It makes a lot of sense. I just don't see any reason to muck up the notes section - I'm really looking forward to using that area to write fun notes to my players.
Despite all my complaining, I too like the ITS. I think it makes much more sense as a record of purchases and such than having it on the chronicle sheets. I'm not complaining about it. I'm complaining that we haven't gone far enough....
The one additional change I'd like to see is to remove any vestige of GMs having to sign off on purchases. Last I read, it was still there, and even if as just a one-line bulk list of items purchased, it will clutter chronicle sheets a bit add gratuitous redundancy, and be a rule that most players and GMs don't follow potentially causing problems if a character eventually hits a GM who wants to see all those signatures. Codify the standard practice that it's OK for GMs to hand out pre-signed chronicle sheets that have the boons, gold, PP, and xp earned on them, and remove all player accounting from those chronicle sheets.
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The one additional change I'd like to see is to remove any vestige of GMs having to sign off on purchases. Last I read, it was still there, and even if as just a one-line bulk list of items purchased, it will clutter chronicle sheets a bit add gratuitous redundancy, and be a rule that most players and GMs don't follow potentially causing problems if a character eventually hits a GM who wants to see all those signatures. Codify the standard practice that it's OK for GMs to hand out pre-signed chronicle sheets that have the boons, gold, PP, and xp earned on them, and remove all player accounting from those chronicle sheets.
This....exactly! Have the chronicle sheet list simply what the player has earned and be filled out exclusively by the GM. The player keeps track of his or her purchases on the ITS. If the goal truly is for ease of audits this solution makes the most sense.
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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I had no trouble copying things from my chronicles onto my ITS. I do not expect to have any trouble moving forward with the ITS. The only problem I had was with things a character was built with, as they don't appear on chronicles. (Someone mentioned the idea of a starting character / level 0 chronicle once. I like this idea.) And even then, it was by my choice, as it was mostly the cheap gear that shouldn't be tracked anyways.
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I'll come out and say that, with the changes, I like ITS a lot. It makes a lot of sense. I just don't see any reason to muck up the notes section - I'm really looking forward to using that area to write fun notes to my players.Despite all my complaining, I too like the ITS. I think it makes much more sense as a record of purchases and such than having it on the chronicle sheets. I'm not complaining about it. I'm complaining that we haven't gone far enough....
The one additional change I'd like to see is to remove any vestige of GMs having to sign off on purchases. Last I read, it was still there, and even if as just a one-line bulk list of items purchased, it will clutter chronicle sheets a bit add gratuitous redundancy, and be a rule that most players and GMs don't follow potentially causing problems if a character eventually hits a GM who wants to see all those signatures. Codify the standard practice that it's OK for GMs to hand out pre-signed chronicle sheets that have the boons, gold, PP, and xp earned on them, and remove all player accounting from those chronicle sheets.
Agree completely.
I really like the ITS -- I think it will simplify the bookkeeping I've been doing for my inventory, and make it much easier for a GM to follow what I've done.
But there is no way we'll be able to do purchases in front of a GM -- we usually run past store closing time as it is. I *can* see a GM signing off on purchases before game (which is what I think would be SOP) but they'll be too hurried to be a real review -- it will end up being a rubber stamp signoff without much meaning.
I certainly understand the desire for having a GM signoff for these purchases, I just don't think the signoff will end up having any value.
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Just my two cents: I actually like the GM signing off on purchases part. As a GM that has had players in the past that have had all sorts of things they purchased that didn't make it on a chronicle, or didn't get charged the right price, or didn't get marked off as used, I had already started a more focused effort to help my players stay on top of their inventory. I'll happily do this at the stores I GM at, and at conventions because I do think in the long run, it will make for a better, more fun game for almost everyone involved.
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Well, Mr Brock, it was not my intention to delve into the minutiae, and it is certainly not my intention to impose my book keeping system to anyone else's. I speak from my personal experience after completing the ITS for 3 of my PCs. For each PC I maintain:
1) Character Sheet
2) Expenses spreadsheet
3) Scenario GP reward and dayjob income (tracked in the same sheet as the Expenses)
4) Spellbook
5) Chronicle Sheet
I'll grant you that writing one sentence onto one ITS sheet may not seem to take more than a minute. However, I take some pride in being organized and I do make it a point to cross check that entry against the Expenses Spreadsheet, the Chronicle Sheet and possibly the Spellbook as well, just to be sure that if/when I am audited, records are consistent and in order. And that's for one item. I took an average of about 60-90 seconds to check all that for one item.
My PCs are at L8x2 and L9 and each has some 60-80 entries in the "above 25gp" range (yes, I love masterwork tools, scrolls and all manner of alchemical power components and consumables). Going through those 3 PCs took me 4 hours plus today, and I have quite a few more to go (granted that these are not as advanced, but there are a few in the level 3 to 5 range).
Based on past experience, I do occasionally spot calculation or recording errors in my records and I will spend some time to rectify these records. This can take anywhere between 15 minutes to about an hour to rectify and to check the records again for consistency.
Perhaps I'll grant you that the average player may not be as prone to OCD as myself, perhaps requiring half the time. That is still easily 2 hours or more per player. Multiplied against all the PFS players, current and future, I'd think that this amounts to a significant chunk of man hours.
I personally did not derive any pleasure from the time spent and I'd be curious to hear if anyone actually found the task enjoyable.
Personally I wondered why PFS would impose this unpleasant task on everyone just to make it easier to catch the minority of the players who fail to keep proper records? Why punish all of us for the mistakes of the few?
And personally I wonder if further forms will be foisted on us in the future if some other form of information needs to be tracked more accurately in the future.
If the problem is that the minority of the players are not keeping proper records, let's think of a way to manage the situation without imposing an additional tax on everyone's time. Perhaps some players need help keeping proper records. Perhaps experienced players/GMs can volunteer to look check on newer players. Perhaps a system for voluntary audits by players can be set up.
If the players with poor records had a problem keeping records currently, I would imagine requiring them to fill out an additional form may not be the best way to help them. For the majority of us who already make the effort to maintain proper records, perhaps we can spend the time which would have been spent filling out the ITS to help the minority. Now THAT would be something worth doing.