Racial Heritage(Human)

[blackbloodtroll]

When you take the Racial Heritage feat, is Human a valid choice?

[SlimGauge]

No.

Racial Heritage Feat wrote:

Choose ANOTHER humanoid race. (emphasis mine)

You're already human, so human is not another humanoid race.

[blackbloodtroll]

What if you are an Aasimar, with the Scion of Humanity alternate racial trait.

They can take the Racial Heritage feat.

[SlimGauge]

What would the point be ? Scion of Humanity says "An aasimar with this racial trait counts as an outsider (native) and a humanoid (human) for any effect related to race, including feat prerequisites and spells that affect humanoids." Racial Heritage says "You count as both human and that race for any effects related to race."

You've just duplicated counting as human and outsider(native).

[Aioran]

But then you still count as human.

[MrSin]

But... why? Is there a reason you would want to? I mean, I don't see why not, but I don't see why you would want to either.

[Ventnor]

MrSin wrote:

But... why? Is there a reason you would want to? I mean, I don't see why not, but I don't see why you would want to either.

Are you saying that legitimately being doublehuman isn't a good enough reason?

'Cause you're right. It's not.

[blackbloodtroll]

I understand that I would still count as Human.

[blackbloodtroll]

Is it possible to choose another ethnicity of Human?

[MrSin]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Is it possible to choose another ethnicity of Human?

If child of two people is any indication its worth a trait, rather than a feat.

[Finlanderboy]

You should pick adpoted by humans too.

[blackbloodtroll]

Well, if I become reincarnated, or become undead, I will still count as Human.

[mplindustries]

I've learned from watching your threads that the real question that needs to be answered is, "What do you expect to gain from doing this?"

[blackbloodtroll]

To remain counting as Human, no matter what happens.

That is the sum of it.

[MrSin]

Well, if you can't take the feat that means humans aren't allowed to have human heritage. That's something to think about.

[blackbloodtroll]

There are actual mechanical effects when choosing ethnicity.

So, there are Human(Chelaxian), and Human(Varisian).

Traits and starting languages reflect this.

So, if you were a Human(Chelaxian), taking the Racial Heritage feat, and choosing Human(Varisian) seems not a far stretch.

They are different races.

[Kazaan]

Is ethnicity considered different actual race for the purpose of Racial Heritage? I think it's more like the "planar ties" for Native Outsiders. Both Aasimar and Tieflings are Outsider(Native), but Aasimar have ties to the Good planes while Tieflings have ties to the Evil planes; still the same type and subtype, but a different slant. Likewise, both Chelaxians Humans and Varisians Humans are Humanoid(Human) but have a different slant so a Chelaxian Human can't take Racial Heritage(Human(Varisian)) because that's not actually a race; the race is Human, full stop.

[blackbloodtroll]

It should still be fine for an Aasimar to choose Human.

[mplindustries]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

There are actual mechanical effects when choosing ethnicity.

So, there are Human(Chelaxian), and Human(Varisian)

I would think choosing ethnicity has no mechanical effect, but choosing culture does. Being ethnically Varisian is less relevant than growing up in Varisia is.

I also can't believe that counting as human after being reincarnated or becoming undead is worth a feat--are those things really common enough to bother?

That said, you don't have to choose Human for the feat in order to count as Human in those circumstances. I'm glad I cut to the chase and asked. ;)

The feat reads:

"Choose another humanoid race. You count as both human and that race for any effects related to race." (emphasis mine)

You can choose dwarf and, despite changing type, you will still count as both human and dwarf.

[blackbloodtroll]

Well, if you are playing a Reincarnated Druid, or plan on becoming Lich, then continuing to count as Human may be a concern.

[Aioran]

Lich is a template, it doesn't stop you being human.

[blackbloodtroll]

Lich changes your type.

This comes up any time you change type, like when becoming undead.

If it doesn't say you keep it from your old type, then you don't keep it.

You no longer count as your previous race.

[Rynjin]

Ventnor wrote:

MrSin wrote:

But... why? Is there a reason you would want to? I mean, I don't see why not, but I don't see why you would want to either.

Are you saying that legitimately being doublehuman isn't a good enough reason?

'Cause you're right. It's not.

There is actually a Devil Fruit in One Piece that does this.

But it was eaten by a reindeer so it made a Reindeer-Human instead of a Human-Human (Human).

[blackbloodtroll]

Indeed, for most, it would be useless.

When you are gambling with every death as a Reincarnated Druid, it works as some insurance.

[blackbloodtroll]

Rynjin wrote:

Ventnor wrote:

MrSin wrote:

But... why? Is there a reason you would want to? I mean, I don't see why not, but I don't see why you would want to either.

Are you saying that legitimately being doublehuman isn't a good enough reason?

'Cause you're right. It's not.

There is actually a Devil Fruit in One Piece that does this.

But it was eaten by a reindeer so it made a Reindeer-Human instead of a Human-Human (Human).

You mean Super Devil Fruit!

Super Devil Fruit?

Yeah! Super Devil Fruit!

[Isil-zha]

Why do you care about still counting as human? it's not like any feat or class feature suddenly gets lost when you reincarnate. You are still (mentally) a human in whatever new body you got through the spell.

[blackbloodtroll]

Well, if you have a Human only feat, it will not function any more.

[Isil-zha]

Says who? Feats are usually considered mental abilities (even the ones with physical consequences like Aspect of the Beast) and you keep all those abilities.

edit: if your GM really denies you the use of those feats (s)he must really like you ;)

[blackbloodtroll]

Just like if you reincarnate, and your strength goes below 13, you won't meet the prerequisites for Power Attack.

Same deal.

[Isil-zha]

but you are still human... just in a different body... at least that's how I read it. Not saying that is the only way, but I think the most important premiss should be that the players still have fun playing. And ruining the character concept with something like this usually isn't much fun.

The ability score thing is usually an "easy" (meaning 4000gp) fix

[blackbloodtroll]

It still loses all racial abilities, including the racial ability, to count as said race.

[Isil-zha]

You do not lose ALL racial abilities. Only the physical ones. And now we can argue whether the requirement for the feats is actually a physical one or more one upbringing or whatnot.

[Aioran]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Lich changes your type.

This comes up any time you change type, like when becoming undead.

If it doesn't say you keep it from your old type, then you don't keep it.

You no longer count as your previous race.

Oh, right it's just a reference/placeholder. Nvm.

[blackbloodtroll]

Some are physical, and some are mental.

You are not the race in question.

Reincarnate leaves no special caveat that allows you to still count as your previous race.

You count as the race you currently are, and nothing else, unless you have some special ability to do otherwise.

[Isil-zha]

I think you should sit down with your GM to clear those things up before you plan your character. It's not so much about finding loopholes in the rules but about finding a compromise at the table that works for everyone involved without killing the fun.

edit: I'm speaking from a perspective of having three recently reincarnated players in the group (funnily the human with racial heritage[orc] came back as a half-orc, though). The reincarnation rules are vague by design.

[blackbloodtroll]

I still cannot see how counting as a race is not a physical racial ability of said race.

By any other understanding, you would not count as the race you reincarnated into.

You are not polymorphing, but are actually becoming said race.

[Isil-zha]

So instead of talking to your GM about how (s)he sees this you try to find loopholes?

As I said the reincarnation rules are vague by design so you can figure that stuff out at your table and be flexible enough to make it fit for your situation.

If you know beforehand that it'll come up you should lay out the ground rules of how reincarnation works at your table before you even start playing. So you can actually plan out your character (and maybe stay away from such feats if your GM shares your view)

edit: and racial heritage has human as requirement, so if you reincarnate into something else you don't meet those requirements anymore following your own reasoning. (or your character will go insane from this weird recursion)

[Starglim]

If you're reincarnated as a human, you count as human without this alleged feat.

If you're reincarnated as a half-elf or a half-orc, you count as human.

edit: If you're reincarnated as an aasimar .. your GM is already making stuff up, so ask her if your new body can have alternate racial traits.

If you're reincarnated or otherwise permanently altered in type and/or subtype to anything else, you don't meet the prerequisite for Racial Heritage, so it doesn't help you.

[blackbloodtroll]

You would meet the prerequisite of the feat, by the feat itself.

[Isil-zha]

Quote:

To understand recursion you have to understand recursion.

Self-referencing statements can drive you mad if you think about them for too long.

edit: Little PHIL101, is the following statement true or false?

Quote:

This statement is false.

Don't take me too seriously, but I think you see what I am aiming at.

[Icyshadow]

I wish this feat didn't exist. Humans have more than enough toys to play with.

We should give something this versatile to the other races as well, if you ask me.

[Kazaan]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

You would meet the prerequisite of the feat, by the feat itself.

That raises the whole new question; can the benefit gained by a particular feat be used to satisfy that feat's prerequisite?

For example, say you have a hypothetical feat that increases your Str by 2 and has 15 Str as a prereq. You have 13 Str but slap on a Belt of +2 Str for 24 hours so you count as having 15 Str, take the feat, then remove the belt. Do you still qualify for the feat, or is this a clear example of pulling oneself up by one's own bootstraps? Logic would seem to dictate the latter, that this is circular logic at its finest and one would question how and why someone would readily accept such a position. But then, one remembers that certain people think it's fine for Racial Heritage to qualify one for racial archetypes of a second race but not for a Half-Orc, despite Racial Heritage and "Orc Blood" (a vestigial racial trait) being worded functionally identical. Then one understands why one is dealing such a ridiculous possibility as using Racial Heritage (Human) to qualify as Human after becoming non-Human because Racial Heritage (Human) allows you to qualify as human to meat the prerequisite for Racial Heritage (Human). *head...hit...keyboard*

[blackbloodtroll]

You ask: Can the benefit gained by a particular feat be used to satisfy that feat's prerequisite?

Yes, but you must be able to meet the prerequisite prior to taking the feat.

This means that before, when you don't have the feat, you need to meet the prerequisites to take the feat.

After, if something changes, but the feat, that you now have, is what allows you to meet the prerequisites for the feat itself, then you are fine, as you already have the feat.

[Isil-zha]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Yes

Do you have any reference for that? Because the way I see it there is nothing in the rules to support this (even though I cannot claim that there is anything to support the opposite, mostly because you cannot account for every sort of possible abuse players may come up with).

[blackbloodtroll]

You can use items to meet prerequisites, and even have items give you feats that you don't meet the prerequisites for, but the idea of a feat, that allows you to qualify for itself seems to far fetched?

Seems fine to me.

[Isil-zha]

Yes

[Umbranus]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

Well, if you have a Human only feat, it will not function any more.

Isn't racial heritage a human only feat, too? So if you get reincarnated you loose access to it and thus don't count as human anymore.

Edit: Yes the idea of a feat that fulfils its own prereq. is far fetched if you ask me.

[Kazaan]

Bootstrapping is always far-fetched. There's a drastic difference between using a permanent str bonus to meet the str prereq of a completely different, unrelated ability. It's something entirely different to use a permanent str bonus to meet the prereq of the ability granting that str bonus.

[blackbloodtroll]

In this case, it doesn't start out as "boot-strapping".

The PC has to die, to ever take advantage of it, and it is not exactly a huge advantage.

[Jeff Clem]

blackbloodtroll wrote:

When you take the Racial Heritage feat, is Human a valid choice?

You can only be human to take this feat. Racial Heritage feat(Human). You pick an other humanoid race (ex: Dwarf),this feat allows you to take, use any feats, magic items, traits, classes, weapons that have dwarven as a prerequisites. You cannot be another race and get this feat!

If you get reincarnated into another race other than human you lose all the advantages this feat grants. You roll the dice ya take your chances.

I'm playing a human with the heritage feat(catfolk)
My class is Nimble Guardian (Monk; Catfolk) Only catfolk can play this class.