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Then good thing that we will have GMs looking over it, because as soon as they see cloak of resistance +1 for 500g then they should correct him.But what if the GM doesn't know that a cloak of resistance is 1,000 gp? That'll take like 30 minutes to figure out and what if they're too late, busy or harried to do it?! RAAAAGE!
Isn't that why the player should have all the relevant pages ready (or bookmarked) so that the GM can quickly check them over?
GM: Can you show me where the cost of the Cloak of Resistance is?
Player: Nope. Can't make me.
GM: Then I won't sign off on it, and you cannot use it this scenario.
Player: RAAAAAGE!!!
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Ok, Last night I copied over some of my characters, and timed myself doing so:
5th level magus - 10 minutes
5th level gunslinger - 10 minutes
8th level barbarian/fighter/alchemist/cavalier - 20 minutes
3rd level oracle of life - 3 minutesI'll do one of my level 11+ tonight and see
My level 11 wizard/bloatmage, accounting for all scribed spells and scrolls purchased (before the change to scribing), took me 34 minutes total to transfer everything to inventory sheets. With wand charges too.
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On the Inventory sheets there should be one column for Magic items and on column for mundane items. Prices on the Magic items should be manditory
Mundane items are less important as even on my 11th level characters mundane items total nor more than 500 to 1000 gp.
Mike I am some what confused do you want a Inventory sheet for each chronicle or just a master Inventory list?
I must be a lazy GM I have never really audited my players characters as I do not go to conventions mainly due to finances. I play all my games at the same store with the same group of people and show them a fair level of trust. IF I thought someone was far off in the how many magic items they had I would audit their character but so far I have not had to do this.
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I'm thinking repellant, but I'm also not the one who originally said that.Is that like Deer Antler Spray or more like Vermin Repellent?alchemical items (mostly Baird Spray, at this point)
It was Zandari. I'm pretty sure he uses it to improve the aroma of his baird. Sometimes I can't tell if he's in character or out.
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It seems that a spreadsheet that showed every adventure, with its gp and PP gained, running totals of both, and every expenditure is needed to make an audit easy. If the spreadsheet also showed the purchase limit by Fame that would verify that the items were purchasable. The player could also sort it to group all the unexpended items together for their current inventory. It could also have a column for weight so your inventory would also show the total.
I'm working this weekend, but I might have time to make a prototype soon.Yeah, I'm probably going overboard. :-)
This spreadsheet method is exactly what I have, I do not track weight on it, but gold, PP, etc. I have a line for each chronicle gained by my PCs. For any purchase or sale that I make, I make a separate line, with the scenario name replaced by "Purchase", so that I can easily sort those out (they are also a different color).
I do know this. That spreadsheet has saved my bacon on several occasions while going through Hero Lab. The buy/sell system in Hero Lab is prone, in my experience, to errors, and I have had to make adjustments to my gold in Hero Lab in a few instances where the gold on my chronicles and in my spreadsheet simply didn't match what HL said I should have.
I should also note that I have made simple errors in writing things on my chronicles that have been illuminated by the spreadsheet, as well as plain old dumb errors that I later discovered and rectified by adjusting gold upward or downward.
For instance, on my current PC, I swapped her scimitar out for an adamantine version. Fiddling around in HL to see how much that cost, I made the changes using the upgrade weapon feature in HL, recorded the price difference, and moved on. A few weeks later, I was looking at my gold totals, and they seemed to high. Well, I neglected to SELL my old scimitar and buy a whole new one. Obviously, you can't UPGRADE to adamantine. It's a full replacement, but HL made it too easy, and I didn't think about it at the time. So now I have about 3400 gold too much on my chronicles. Time to look stupid in front of my GM!
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As a player, the inability to take my paper, pencil, hardcopy PF books and make a legal PFS character with equipment on the fly for me or a new person to the group is something I can't plan around as easily. I don't know in advance when I will need or want to do that. I could even be put in a situation where I wouldn't feel comfortable purchasing flavorful and occasionally useful adventuring gear because it would take the remaining slots on my sheet and I don't know when I will get a chance to procure a new one. That doesn't make PFS unplayable or anything, but it does make it a little less accessible.I don't know of any library that doesn't have a copy machine. They shouldn't be that expensive to get copies made. My local library charges I think $.25 for print outs, I'm not sure if it is the same price for copies or not. Also, if you play with others, I'm sure you could ask nicely, and they'll print extra copies that you can have on hand. Generally the people I've met that play PFS are generous, and willing to help if they can, all you need to do is ask.
Kinkos charges like 7 cents per page for standard black and white.
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My apologies. I generally think most people read through the thread and will see where it is edited in. I thought anyone who had already posted would know my initial post was only fou ror five threads before there. For convenience, HERE you go.See my edit...it's impossible for somebody coming to this thread to know what you're talking about if you don't also include a link to the post that you've edited.
That's all well and good if it's your first time through.
When you come back and there have been a whole bunch of other posts from a lot of people, including a whole bunch of other posts with "Mike Brock" at the top, it becomes much more difficult to figure out what you're talking about without a quote or a link. At the very least, it becomes labor intensive to reread through everything to try to figure out what's going on. At worst, though, it's not clear just which post you're talking about when we're this many posts in to a long thread.
But, thanks for the link. I hope you'll realize that in the mess that is a web forum, context is not always obvious when not explicit, and that it's not just me being stupid here.
Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
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Kinkos charges like 7 cents per page for standard black and white.
I thought about looking up some of the office stores to see what their prices are, but wasn't sure who provides those services. I don't use them myself, and only know about the library because I occasionally have to do some last minute printing.
I personally have a deal where I'm providing computer support, and in return I can do all my printing on a color copier/printer. For color copies/printouts it is only $.10 per sheet. B&W is less than a tenth of a penny, so we don't have to track that. :)
Well, Mike said he was working with Joe on a solution for the online peeps, and that is good, but what to do with the underlying problem, that almost none of online GMs list buys and sold/used etc on the chronicles?
The GMs on FantasyGrounds filled out everything properly. Other then those, I have never seen a single GM fill out anything, other then the one time I needed Restoration after a stat-drain, and the ones I have begged to include spells scribed etc from scrolls found, as is noted in the FAQ the GMs have to sign for each one.
As of now, I have about 40 chronicles worth of blank bought and sold/used. Ive kept good track of all my inventory (down to every charge of wands, and every acid flask used), so I can fill out stuff, but I wonder how the GM will treat it if I ever go to a F2F-game and have to go through everything from scratch.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I wil say, with the tracking system, the replay options, and the vitriol and insults coming from some people, I'm sorely tempted to say 'frak it' and just play Ksenia (who I kept extra careful accounting of) GRizzly Adams and Mayim (since the later two are blobs of GM credit, and can be started 'from scratch').
Heck, I've had scenarios where I spent gold on non-faction, non-scenario related 'fluff' and I kept track but the VL/GM didn't sign off on it.* I tracked it because I'm honest.
I understand the concept of the tracking sheet. I approve it having more room than the chronicle sheets. I *don't* like the implication that the concerns raised about it are just because GM's are lazy and frazzled.
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This spreadsheet method is exactly what I have, I do not track weight on it, but gold, PP, etc. I have a line for each chronicle gained by my PCs. For any purchase or sale that I make, I make a separate line, with the scenario name replaced by "Purchase", so that I can easily sort those out (they are also a different color).
...
This brings to mind a different sort of audit. I don't recall weight or location on the sheet
Next time you edit the inventory sheet thing about adding a little room for weight and location.
I know there are a lot of low strength (or even not so low) that have far more weight of equipment on them than is claimed for the speed of movement. And probably more objects in a haversack than it could carry. An inventory sheet could help with those numbers as well.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Wait, we're supposed to track our purchases? Uh-oh....
Calybos,
Ths issue isn't tracking purchases (and expenditures), I do that now, using Heorlab. I can track every GP Ksenia spent, and most* that Talyn, Dex, and Rey have spent. The issue is that the GM (almost) never signs off on purchases. I've been lax on doing that as well. In part because of the time constraints, and in part because of my understanding that the purchases/conditions accumulated in the scenario need to be tracked (I'd notate prestige spent on raise dead or restoration for example.)
Now going forward I'm going to lead by example, as a GM and a player. What that is going to do is slow down the game/shorten time. THe proof as it were is in the pudding. If I'm asked to not GM, because I'm following the rules, then clearly something's wrong.
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1) By RAW in the guide since February of 2011, at least, there was no such thing as the honor system in PFS. Audits were supposed to be happening for every character at every game session.
2) I think the larger sheet just for tracking item purchases will actually make it easier for players to track their purchases as those tiny stupid lines on the chronicle sheets were way too small to write on legibly. Does it increase fun? Probably not, but it certainly won’t decrease it.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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@Andrew,
Which goes back to time constraints. If GM at table A doesn't have time to shop and initial at the end, and GM B doesn't have time at the beginning to review and sign off, then the player's caught in the middle.
I agree, allowing me, at the begining to sign off, is a good thing, just saying we'll see how actually enforcing the rule affects things.
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A GM should have the roughly 30 seconds per player to sign off on ITS sheets.
Lets not get silly about time constraints here.
I guess I don't understand
I thought it was already established from a post by Mr. Brock that ITS are never signed since Caron's are signed
Assuming Caron=Chronicle, you are correct.
(I'm not being nitpicky; I don't know if that's a typo or a translation issue.)
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A GM should have the roughly 30 seconds per player to sign off on ITS sheets.
Lets not get silly about time constraints here.
I guess I don't understand
I thought it was already established from a post by Mr. Brock that ITS are never signed since Caron's are signed
<sigh> Why is this so difficult?
If a GM has to look over the ITS to start a scenario (assuming you actually purchased anything), then essentially signing the chronicle is signing off on the ITS, right?
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That's all well and good, except that since many (most?) GMs don't look at character sheets or chronicles at all before a game right now, why do we believe that they're going to start looking at the ITS sheet?
In practice, this is what will happen. GMs will hand out signed chronicle sheets with just the player name, character name, PFS number, and "GM only" boxes filled out, but everything else blank, as has always been the case. It's the current practice, even though it's not the current written rule.
Some players will keep track of all their accounting and all their ITS sheets. Most won't. Some players will even be surprised to find out they were supposed to be using an ITS sheet.
Then, the occasional GM that wants to look over things is going to have to spend WAY more than 30 seconds looking over all the paperwork. If they're lucky, they will have anal players who've kept everything right. More likely, there will be at least one, probably multiple, players whose records are a mess. The right-side accounting of every chronicle sheet will be blank (just like most of them for most players are now), and the ITS sheet, even if it exists, will be woefully incomplete, and it will be unclear how to match it to various chornicle sheets. Many players will have purchases on the ITS sheet and/or character sheet that show up on no chronicle sheet. And, yet, every chronicle sheet will have a signature.
Those GMs that decide to look at these are going to have to spend WAY more than 30 seconds, unless they're lucky and the players have thus far only played with anal GMs who've looked at it so far.
As designed, the system is fine. It really won't take the GM that long to look over it. The problem is that we already know that most GMs and players aren't using the system as designed, and aren't doing the accounting that they're supposed to do now. Adding a new sheet to do accounting on isn't going to help that! Why would anybody think that adding a new sheet is somehow going to get people to do paperwork when they're not even doing the paperwork that's required right now?
Yes, it WOULD make things easier for players to keep track of and GMs to audit if people really used it. But the real problem, the problem that's not being addressed, is that people already aren't doing the checking they're supposed to be doing before signing off, and there's nothing that will change that. As such, while the system as *designed* as fine, the system in practice will in many cases just add more things that aren't done right and that will be mess for the rare GM that wants to do it right, unless that GM is lucky enough to have been GMing those players since level 1 and has kept them up to date.