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There's enough contradictory and vague language that I have to say at this point that I have no clear idea how to award prestige points to characters at the end of a scenario.
Questions include:
* Do faction missions matter at all for the awarding of PP? There is a bold statement that they do not, but then later statements that would seem to imply that that they do.
* What's the overview of the intent? Is the intent that GMs will be given two success conditions in Season 5+ modules, and players get 1PP for each success condition met? That's what I get reading between the lines. It would be nice to have a flat statement of this.
* For earlier seasons, it would be nice to have a section just about the awarding of prestige, all by itself, not mixed in with the awarding of gold and the figuring out of which faction mission is whose and so forth. For instance, if I got the intent right above, then perhaps this could be solved with the simple statement that "For earlier seasons scenarios, there aren't explicit 'success conditions'. However, the primary mission for the party is generally obvious, and players should receive 2PP for completing that mission."
But, really, I'm extremely confused at the moment... I can't tell if faction missions matter for PP or not any more. And, whether they do or they do not, I have no idea (or, more accurately, multiple contradictory ideas) how to figure out how many PP characters get at the end of a scenario.
Help? I'm looking for official rulings here, not speculation from others who are just as confused as I.
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My understanding, from having seen earlier drafts of the guide as it was being worked on, is that:
- 1 pp/fame for playing/attempting the scenario
- 1 pp/fame for accomplishing the scenario's goals (as presented in the VC briefing at the start of the scenario)
This is *not* an official ruling, but since Mike and John and Mark are on Pacific time, it might be awhile before something official gets posted.
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Mike Brock did say on the other thread that a clarification would be in place before the new guide takes effect. My guess is he didn't want to put something quick out tonight that might also be misinterpreted, and once they've had a chance to rephrase it, they'll let us know.
Mike Bramnik - What you posted here makes sense to me, but there's nothing in the language in the guide that sounds anything like that. At least not that I've found. If that is, indeed, the way it will work, I like it. It's simple and consistent for all of the seasons prior to 5, but it still gives the possibility of partial credit, as it was phrased in the other thread.
In the other thread you seemed to suggest that the faction mission was still required, which was not my understanding of things based on previous announcements (without any knowledge of discussions between venture officers), so my apologies if I misinterpreted your post there.
EDITED - Ah, wait, that wasn't you that suggested that in the other thread at all. It was Kyle responding to me responding to you. :) It's late, sorry.
Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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Personally, I believe that the rules are pretty clear. In Seasons 0-4, 2 prestige is awarded as long as the scenario is accomplished. In Season 5, one prestige is awarded for scenario completion and one is awarded for either completion of a faction mission, or if none is present, on the side quest. There will be no more faction mission handouts, but a GM may choose to hand out the ones in seasons 0-4 for flavor purposes.
Personally, I believe that the rules are pretty clear. In Seasons 0-4, 2 prestige is awarded as long as the scenario is accomplished. In Season 5, one prestige is awarded for scenario completion and one is awarded for either completion of a faction mission, or if none is present, on the side quest. There will be no more faction mission handouts, but a GM may choose to hand out the ones in seasons 0-4 for flavor purposes.
Ok, now this is what I heard before. But then I heard in a different thread you get 1 prestige for completion of scenario and one just for playing.
The issue I have with how you are saying is I’m concerned on how you gain information about your faction, or side, mission. I try to take as good of notes as I can, but a lot of times I can’t hear the GM due to noise or he might speak too softly. I don’t really want to rely on making sure I understood the GM correctly by hearing him, or if I did hear him, making sure I understood clearly what I need to do. I hope there is clear information on what the faction (side) mission is.
I agree, the faction missions were a little wonky sometimes on what you needed to do, but I liked them because they were (mostly) clear and had them in front of you whenever you needed to refer to them.
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Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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Personally, I believe that the rules are pretty clear. In Seasons 0-4, 2 prestige is awarded as long as the scenario is accomplished. In Season 5, one prestige is awarded for scenario completion and one is awarded for either completion of a faction mission, or if none is present, on the side quest. There will be no more faction mission handouts, but a GM may choose to hand out the ones in seasons 0-4 for flavor purposes.Ok, now this is what I heard before. But then I heard in a different thread you get 1 prestige for completion of scenario and one just for playing.
The issue I have with how you are saying is I’m concerned on how you gain information about your faction, or side, mission. I try to take as good of notes as I can, but a lot of times I can’t hear the GM due to noise or he might speak too softly. I don’t really want to rely on making sure I understood the GM correctly by hearing him, or if I did hear him, making sure I understood clearly what I need to do. I hope there is clear information on what the faction (side) mission is.
I agree, the faction missions were a little wonky sometimes on what you needed to do, but I liked them because they were (mostly) clear and had them in front of you whenever you needed to refer to them.
Well, that's frankly a concern that I have as well. I am a bit concerned that newbie GMs or those who have not had much time to prepare may accidentally gloss over the hook to a faction mission or side quest - but, that's the way the rules are written now, and I guess we'll see how it plays out.
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Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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Hobun: The simple solution to what you are describing is for GMs to print out the faction briefing for the players. Many already do this and it is always appreciated.
There will be no printed factions in the new season. Do you mean the Venture-Captain briefing?
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I will also say that I personally hope that GMs for the most part will continue to give out the faction missions for older scenarios, with the option for players to complete them or not as they see fit. In some scenarios (such as Murder on the Throaty Mermaid) they provide clues that will help with the overall mission. In others they provide useful flavour and hints that may help with the scenario. I imagine it will be a case by case situation though.
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Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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Personally, I don't print out the mission briefing, and I don't answer questions about that briefing unless the party absolutely hits a brick wall. Why? Two reasons.
1) Players need to learn to listen to the GM.
2) It replicates an effect that usually requires an expenditure of 10 PP - the Chronicler.
As for the old faction missions, I think that I will likely pick and choose. I will select the interesting ones, but the more boring ones will probably not be given out unless requested.
Yep, exactly.
At our local store there are only a 3-4 tables and I sometimes have trouble hearing.
At conventions it can sometimes be downright impossible.
And I actually have good hearing, it's just so loud.
Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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Hey folks. John and I are going to discuss the language in the Guide at length today, reword and rework some things, update the Guide, and then re release it. Please give us some time to clarify wording.
This is one of the key reasons we release it 10 days before the season starts. It allows us to rework anything that needs to be reworked before the season starts.
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Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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In a convention setting, sure, I'll repeat then. If the problem is one of ability to hear, not one of attention to detail, I'll repeat. In a quiet room, though, where everybody is too focused on looking over some details of their character sheets or chatting about Game of Thrones while I'm trying to brief...yeah.
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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This is one of the key reasons we release it 10 days before the season starts. It allows us to rework anything that needs to be reworked before the season starts.And a very good reason, it is; you'll always find more things to clear up when you get a large group to look over a document, so this will help clear up potential points of confusion before they happen at the table.
Personally, I hope you do this with all future versions of the Guide from here on out.
That has been the plan since Guide 4.2 last Gen Con.
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Can you clarify additional item purchases from your factions maybe something like.
"You can purchase any PFS legal item from your faction up to the price indicated on table 5-3(?) at the end of any adventure."
What's the problem now? And actually, you can purchase items from your faction at any settlement of sufficient size, not just at the end of any adventure.
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Personally, I believe that the rules are pretty clear. In Seasons 0-4, 2 prestige is awarded as long as the scenario is accomplished. In Season 5, one prestige is awarded for scenario completion and one is awarded for either completion of a faction mission, or if none is present, on the side quest. There will be no more faction mission handouts, but a GM may choose to hand out the ones in seasons 0-4 for flavor purposes.
I might be misreading it, but this isn't actually what the guide appears to me to say. It says what you said for seasons 0-2 and for season 5, but seasons 3 and 4 appear to still use faction missions according to my reading of the guide. Note that I understand that that's not the intention of the PFS team, but it does seem to be what it says.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I think it is more:
Completing the main objective will earn 1 PP. Clues will be given along the way that lead to a side mission that will earn a second PP.
If I recall correctly, the "clues" schtick was tried on a couple scenarios during Season 0. It didn't work well at all. Some GMs gave players very strong hints ("Did you want to, maybe, take some of the magical vine back with you? A cutting, perhaps?") and other GMs expected players to test and poke at everything along the way, with very little guidance.
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Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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Personally, I believe that the rules are pretty clear. In Seasons 0-4, 2 prestige is awarded as long as the scenario is accomplished. In Season 5, one prestige is awarded for scenario completion and one is awarded for either completion of a faction mission, or if none is present, on the side quest. There will be no more faction mission handouts, but a GM may choose to hand out the ones in seasons 0-4 for flavor purposes.I might be misreading it, but this isn't actually what the guide appears to me to say. It says what you said for seasons 0-2 and for season 5, but seasons 3 and 4 appear to still use faction missions according to my reading of the guide. Note that I understand that that's not the intention of the PFS team, but it does seem to be what it says.
While the same language isn't there and probably should be if they're going to split it up like this, I feel that it is clear enough that the rules play out as I described.
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If anything is clear from this discussion, it's that the rules right now are completely unclear.
People have listed at least three different (and contradictory) interpretations of what you're supposed to do based on reading of the guide.
That, alone, should make it obvious that those who say it's clear are wrong.... Maybe it's clear to you, but it's also possible that what you're doing isn't right. It it really were clear, then the majority of people who read it and come to the same conclusion.
I hope it turns out to be what Mike Brammik says here (which, notably, is different from what Netopalis says he thinks is clear in the guide).
I look forward to seeing the updated guide in the next 10 days and finding out what the real ruling is. Sadly, this means that I have to delay starting a PbP game I was planning to start this week for another 10 days, because I don't want to tell the players the wrong thing about faction missions (and, at the moment, it's impossible for me to know what the right thing to tell them is).
I hope it turns out to be what Mike Brammik says here
This is what I hope as well.
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Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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If anything is clear from this discussion, it's that the rules right now are completely unclear.
People have listed at least three different (and contradictory) interpretations of what you're supposed to do based on reading of the guide.
That, alone, should make it obvious that those who say it's clear are wrong.... Maybe it's clear to you, but it's also possible that what you're doing isn't right. It it really were clear, then the majority of people who read it and come to the same conclusion.
I hope it turns out to be what Mike Brammik says here (which, notably, is different from what Netopalis says he thinks is clear in the guide).
I look forward to seeing the updated guide in the next 10 days and finding out what the real ruling is. Sadly, this means that I have to delay starting a PbP game I was planning to start this week for another 10 days, because I don't want to tell the players the wrong thing about faction missions (and, at the moment, it's impossible for me to know what the right thing to tell them is).
I honestly don't see all the confusion. I agree with what Mike says - what I was posting was a shortened take on it for the quick and dirty question of whether or not faction missions still need to be given out.
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Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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If the two prestige is automatic now for older senarios, are we going to get 6 PP for completing a module or sanction AP? I am pretty much down to just a handfull of modules and AP I can still play and there is a huge difference between 66 pp you get from senarios and 48 pp you get from modules and AP. The value of items more then doubles in this narrow band.
I do hope that this is revisited as well, since there is no longer an expectation of completing only 2/3rds of faction missions. This makes playing modules a much less attractive prospect.
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I honestly don't see all the confusion. I agree with what Mike says - what I was posting was a shortened take on it for the quick and dirty question of whether or not faction missions still need to be given out.
...! You posted something different from what Mike posted!
As for where the confusion comes from, if somebody can point me to where in the guide it says what Mike says, I would be grateful. As far as I can tell, that's either what people want, what people (like Mike) know from prior discussion before the Guide came out, or reading between the lines and trying to figure out what must be underneath the obfuscation that is in the actual text of the Guide. I haven't found where in the Guide it says "1 prestige point for playing the scenario, 1 prestige point for completing the overall mission".
I can find things in the Guide that contradict that, and that contradict each other. The gold mine for this is page 32, the section entitled "Adapting Seasons 0-4". This seems to say that you have to complete the mission in seasons 1-2 to get any prestige. Because it mixes together talking about retired factions and which faction missions use other missions, it sounds like for other seasons maybe you still need faction missions for prestige (f'rinstance, Season 0 very strongly implies you have to complete faction missions), even though there's another bold statement that says something else. The result is that there's no clear statement for awarding prestige for seasons 0, 3, or 4, and what unclear statements there are contradict each other.
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I don’t know that modules need to be revisited.
The intention has always been that you get 4 or 4.5 PP per 3 Scenarios on average.
You can’t fail to get PP for a module, unless you don’t show up to one of the sessions. So you automatically get 2/3rds PP, so to speak. And you got it without doing a faction mission.
And in the season 5 scenarios, my impression of what they said on the Podcast, was that you won’t automatically get 2, and that the 2nd will be a secondary mission that may require you to be vigilant and a good explorer/adventurer to succeed at even finding out what it is. Therefore, the chance that you might not get both PP in a season 5 scenario may actually more reflect that 2/3rds PP paradigm than what we currently experience where almost everyone gets all the PP.
So still, Modules don’t need to change.
If the two prestige is automatic now for older senarios, are we going to get 6 PP for completing a module or sanction AP? I am pretty much down to just a handfull of modules and AP I can still play and there is a huge difference between 66 pp you get from senarios and 48 pp you get from modules and AP. The value of items more then doubles in this narrow band.I do hope that this is revisited as well, since there is no longer an expectation of completing only 2/3rds of faction missions. This makes playing modules a much less attractive prospect.
Modules have never been that much of an attractive prospect to me, at least in regards to gaining PP.
But then I’ve never liked the 2/3 PP expectation in the first place. However, that discussion is for another thread.
(And no, neither of my characters have max PP/Fame)
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Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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I honestly don't see all the confusion. I agree with what Mike says - what I was posting was a shortened take on it for the quick and dirty question of whether or not faction missions still need to be given out....! You posted something different from what Mike posted!
I said that as long as the scenario is accomplished, 2 prestige is awarded. I did not say anything about failing the scenario. The point of my post was that factions don't come into it.
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If anything is clear from this discussion, it's that the rules right now are completely unclear.
People have listed at least three different (and contradictory) interpretations of what you're supposed to do based on reading of the guide.
That, alone, should make it obvious that those who say it's clear are wrong.... Maybe it's clear to you, but it's also possible that what you're doing isn't right. It it really were clear, then the majority of people who read it and come to the same conclusion.
I hope it turns out to be what Mike Brammik says here (which, notably, is different from what Netopalis says he thinks is clear in the guide).
I look forward to seeing the updated guide in the next 10 days and finding out what the real ruling is. Sadly, this means that I have to delay starting a PbP game I was planning to start this week for another 10 days, because I don't want to tell the players the wrong thing about faction missions (and, at the moment, it's impossible for me to know what the right thing to tell them is).
The new rules in the guide don't go into effect until August 15th anyway. So we would have to wait to implement for another week and a half anyway.
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I said that as long as the scenario is accomplished, 2 prestige is awarded. I did not say anything about failing the scenario. The point of my post was that factions don't come into it.
Now you're falling back on semantics to argue you said something that was very different from what people would naturally think you said in the first place.
"As long as the scenario is accomplished, 2 prestige is awarded" would seem to say "Scenario not completed, 0 prestige; scenario completed, 2 prestige."
While strictly semantically speaking what you said is not inconsistent with "1 prestige for trying, 1 prestige for completing the scenario", what we don't need here are people who can argue why things are semantically correct. What we need are rules that say what you're supposed to do when. When you argue that things are clear, and then say things that are unclear, it doesn't do much to support your argument that things are clear....
That there are multiple different interpretations people have posted in this thread make it obvious that things are not clear, even if you have decided for yourself what you think the rules say.
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The new rules in the guide don't go into effect until August 15th anyway. So we would have to wait to implement for another week and a half anyway.
Not for PbP. Joseph Caubo says here that a PbP game must report by September 30 to be able to use version 4.3 of the Guide. A PbP game that started today would spend most of its running time after August 14, when the new Guide is the rule. What's more, it would only be a fairly fast PbP game that would be able to start today and complete by the end of September. (That's not out of the bound of reason, but my experience is that most PbP PFS scenarios take more than two months to complete.)
So, yes, to start a PbP game today, I need to understand the version 5 rules so that I can tell my players the right things about the rules for faction missions and prestige will be when I'm handing out their chronicle sheets 2-3 months down the line.
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If I am reading things right on page 31, for Season 0, you earn 1 for completing your faction mission and 1 for completing the overall scenario. Nothing has changed there.
The issue rises when explaining prestige for Season 1 and 2. It actually says you earn 2 prestige points for completing the overall scenario goal and doesn't say anything about faction missions, so it gives the impression that faction missions are ignored.
For Season 3 and 4 it talks of nothing about earning prestige. It does specify that you ignore the faction missions for Lantern and Shadow lodge because those lodges have been retired. This leaves the impression that the other faction missions are still valid.
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Though I am confused, I'm certain there is meant to be consistency about how faction missions are handled for seasons 0-4. Whether that's 1 prestige for trying and 1 for succeeding, or 0 if you fail and 2 if you succeed, or something else, I don't know. Mike has asked for time to work on the wording, so we should give him some.
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I'm quite confused as well. If, apparently, faction missions are going away... then why do factions still exist?
Personally, I'd say that this change only makes the campaign easier, because there's no more incentive to complete faction missions. Given, there was the Easy Mode Crusade, but without faction missions, there is really very little incentive to create a robust Pathfinder.
In other words, min-max even harder, because it's all about killing monsters now!
-Matt
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I'm quite confused as well. If, apparently, faction missions are going away... then why do factions still exist?
I would reserve that judgement until after some Season 5 scenarios come out. If you notice in the 5.0 guide, there are faction goals for season 5 as well. As was mentioned before, Factions will still have a prominent role, but be more full-scenario focused. As an example, see the Dissapeared from Season 4 for Cheliax. I expect others like these to follow for other factions.
Plus, they are still flavor. I have THREE characters whose backstory only work thanks to the factions. Factions are what you make of them. Why even have 30+ nations in the Inner Sea? There is no incentive to be from Mendev over the Land of the Linnorm kings. Why bother then? It just becomes another option for players. And they even have vanities and traits!
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I'm quite confused as well. If, apparently, faction missions are going away... then why do factions still exist?
Personally, I'd say that this change only makes the campaign easier, because there's no more incentive to complete faction missions. Given, there was the Easy Mode Crusade, but without faction missions, there is really very little incentive to create a robust Pathfinder.
In other words, min-max even harder, because it's all about killing monsters now!
-Matt
Play certain Season 4 scenarios with a character with no skills and see if you still say that. I think Paizo has done an excellent job over the last season making the scenarios themselves better and having more scenarios that require things other than killing monsters to succeed. That's a much better direction to go than the sometimes random faction missions, in my opinion.
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I'm quite confused as well. If, apparently, faction missions are going away... then why do factions still exist?
Personally, I'd say that this change only makes the campaign easier, because there's no more incentive to complete faction missions. Given, there was the Easy Mode Crusade, but without faction missions, there is really very little incentive to create a robust Pathfinder.
In other words, min-max even harder, because it's all about killing monsters now!
-Matt
Play certain Season 4 scenarios with a character with no skills and see if you still say that. I think Paizo has done an excellent job over the last season making the scenarios themselves better and having more scenarios that require things other than killing monsters to succeed. That's a much better direction to go than the sometimes random faction missions, in my opinion.
Right, but it seems now like only one person in the party will need one skill to go for the extra credit, if that, and your party can't succeed without making you succeed too (as it should be in a team).
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Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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There's nothing yet to indicate the extra prestige point will come down to a single skill roll. That's possible, of course, but other more creative options at certainly possible, too. We won't really know until we see the first season 5 scenario.
I'm just hoping that this won't result in more people neglecting key skills.
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There's nothing yet to indicate the extra prestige point will come down to a single skill roll. That's possible, of course, but other more creative options at certainly possible, too. We won't really know until we see the first season 5 scenario.I'm just hoping that this won't result in more people neglecting key skills.
And blaming everybody else when the faction mission fails.