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The difference in damage separating it from the 75% goal is manyshot.Let's get something straight here, since we're talking goalposts. If a slinger has to spend five feats to reach 75% of what a longbowman can with one feat -- that's not a fair comparison. So, prove to me the sling meets 75% with the following conditions:
1. Both characters focus on ranged combat, meaning you don't get bogged down in spending a lot of resources on making a bow or a sling into a viable melee weapon, and meaning the archer doesn't have a bunch of leftover feats to spend on being a melee expert or whatever.
2. Human only. I don't care who can do what with racial splatbook traits.
3. Equal expenditure of feats on ranged combat.
4. Heroic NPC stat array at start, none of this 25-point buy stuff.
5. The archer is relatively well-optimized primary damage-dealer. He doesn't do 25% of a like-CR monster's hp with a full attack -- he should be doing more like 75%. Neither character has feats to waste on stuff like basket weaving.So the slinger should be able to deal 75% of the archer's damage, or 56% of a same-CR monster's hp, in 1 round. And the two should be more or less equal outside of that.
So your goal post is 56% with a human? Correct?
If I reach that, you will concede? yes or no?
And this is me asking despite the posted Archer not reaching the 75% goalpost you are attributing.
Do all your games take place on a medieval battlefield and are all the opponents plate-armoured men-at-arms?
If the answer to this is 'yes', then the sling should be an unpopular choice even if properly modelled in Pathfinder.
If the answer is 'no', then the argument about it losing out on the medieval battlefield is irrelevant.
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The difference in damage separating it from the 75% goal is manyshot.Let's get something straight here, since we're talking goalposts. If a slinger has to spend five feats to reach 75% of what a longbowman can with one feat -- that's not a fair comparison. So, prove to me the sling meets 75% with the following conditions:
1. Both characters focus on ranged combat, meaning you don't get bogged down in spending a lot of resources on making a bow or a sling into a viable melee weapon, and meaning the archer doesn't have a bunch of leftover feats to spend on being a melee expert or whatever.
2. Human only. I don't care who can do what with racial splatbook traits.
3. Equal expenditure of feats on ranged combat.
4. Heroic NPC stat array at start, none of this 25-point buy stuff.
5. The archer is relatively well-optimized primary damage-dealer. He doesn't do 25% of a like-CR monster's hp with a full attack -- he should be doing more like 75%. Neither character has feats to waste on stuff like basket weaving.So the slinger should be able to deal 75% of the archer's damage, or 56% of a same-CR monster's hp, in 1 round. And the two should be more or less equal outside of that.
Can I toss one in?
I would like to see the differences in DPR at each of the slinger's range increments.....just to be fair.
We are going to need a baseline archer that I need to be 75% of then.
Same standards.
EDIT: Should I use Nicos?
So your goal post is 56% with a human? Correct?
If I reach that, you will concede? yes or no?
If you fulfull ALL the conditions listed. Post an archer that fulfills his requirements (mean 75% of same-CR enemy hp in one round) and a slinger for comparison, in accordance with the challenge. If you meet all 5 criteria, and the slinger meets 75% of the archer's ranged DPR (56% of the same-CR critter's hp), then I'll concede the sling is "viable but sub-optimal."
Cheat on or fail to fulfill any of the criteria, and you, in turn, stop saying they're fine.
Oh, and to put a kibish on some of your other usual shenanigans, you can't assume that unlikely events automatically happen. Hits are not automatic; they happen X% of the time. Crit threats are not automatic. Crit confirmation is not automatic. Etc.
You pick what level they are -- shall we say anything between 6th and 16th, inclusive? As long as they're both the same level.
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So your goal post is 56% with a human? Correct?
If I reach that, you will concede? yes or no?If you fulfull ALL the conditions listed. Post an archer that fulfills his requirements (mean 75% of same-CR enemy hp in one round) and a slinger for comparison, in accordance with the challenge. If you meet all 5 criteria, and the slinger meets 75% of the archer's ranged DPR (56% of the same-CR critter's hp), then I'll concede the sling is "viable but sub-optimal."
Cheat on or fail to fulfill any of the criteria, and you, in turn, stop saying they're fine.
Posting the archer isn't my job. You made the claim of the Archer getting to 75%, not me. That would be 97.5 at 10th.
I can also just go by the 56% which would be 72.8...higher than I believe Nico's archer got and higher than many DPR Olympians posted by Ilja by the way...
EDIT: In other words, you have to prove your claim of 75% as well.
Does anyone want to step in and post a viable archer for ciretose, so we can get rolling?
That can do 92.7 DPR...Kirth's standard.
That assumes you want a 10th level comparison, which is fine with me.
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EDIT: Should I use Nicos?My archer did not dump stat cause your halfing did not either, the archer should use more or less the same DPR optimization (in case you are now dumping a stat). I would post an archer but my personal Pc is broken (I am posting from my job) s
Kirth has put the bar at 92.7 DPR for an archer. I'd like to see that actually happen before I try and meet his 75% of that criteria.
I think Ilja is much more reasonable at 40 to 45%, but I haven't heard back agreement on those goal posts.
I also will be taking another shot at 80% of Nicos last archer, or whatever archer he posts next.
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If you are going to pick a DPR target of 75% or higher, keep in mind that those numbers are significantly more difficult to reach at low levels due to the way AC scales. The target AC for a CR 5 creature is 18, and that only goes up by 6 for a CR 10 creature, and the creature's expected health barely doubles. It is MUCH easier to achieve the 75% measure at high levels.
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Why not just agree that the Core and Ultimate Equipment version of the "Shepherd's Sling" just sucks for combat beyond a secondary use, and work out what we would like to see in a Paizo released "War Sling" that could be a viable option for those that want it as their weapon of choice?
Edited my Ultimate reference.
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we're better off with 1d4+ strength... which actually isn't that bad.1d4+Str, with no crit multiplier, with half the range, and with no iterative attacks possible unless you burn two extra feats on that alone? That's stupefyingly bad.
Doing any one of those things would make the sling less effective than the composite bow. Doing all of them is, as Raymond Chandler said, like knocking in someone's teeth and then shooting him for mumbling.
Its a simple weapon.. .its supposed to be worse.
It has the advantages of weight, cost, and ease of acquiring ammoall weapons are not supposed to be equal
it really does have a lower rate of fire than a bow.
It really isn't an ideal weapon against a dragon or an armored warrior.
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If you are going to pick a DPR target of 75% or higher, keep in mind that those numbers are significantly more difficult to reach at low levels due to the way AC scales. The target AC for a CR 5 creature is 18, and that only goes up by 6 for a CR 10 creature, and the creature's expected health barely doubles. It is MUCH easier to achieve the 75% measure at high levels.
Yes and no. It really can vary a lot from level to level depending on what you can pick up and what bonuses are added.
But like I said, I would like to see the 97.5 archer (I said 92 earlier, but 75% of 130 is actually 97.5)
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Both weapons have ubiquitous ammunition and an archer has an easier time crafting new arrows than you do casting new metal bullets.
Yes, but the slinger can fire river stones or broken bits of dungeon flooring in a pinch. The archer can't fire twigs.
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Putting it aside that that'll almost NEVER happen, except if the situation is engineered to (remember that episode where Aquaman got to shine? Yeah, it's like that).
If he has to do that, he has to pick them up with a move action.
At which point, he'd deal more damage if he grabbed a rock and then started bashing people with it.
I get the vision in my head of a dude picking up a rock, getting ready to load up his sling and saying "Ah screw it" and charging into battle swinging frantically with his newly acquired bludgeon. That's a funny visual.
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Putting it aside that that'll almost NEVER happen, except if the situation is engineered to (remember that episode where Aquaman got to shine? Yeah, it's like that).
Its a simple weapon.
It is aquaman.
If you want it to be superman... play superman.
WHY do you want the sling to be better?
Putting it aside that that'll almost NEVER happen, except if the situation is engineered to (remember that episode where Aquaman got to shine? Yeah, it's like that).
Its a simple weapon.
It is aquaman.
If you want it to be superman... play superman.
WHY do you want the sling to be better?
No, I want the SLINGER to be better. So do many in this thread. Not all, but some.
And by better, I mean have fun, useful and unique options that don't equate to simply enhancing DPR and allow the slinger to be useful to the party w/out being damage guy. THAT would make taking the sling fun.
"So, as I'm making my character, I could focus on the sling and be ranged CMB guy, or I could take the bow and become DPR guy. Hmm..."
Right now my options are "I could take the bow and do all the damage, I could take the crossbow and do most of the damage, or I could take the sling and do some of the damage..."
I'd like to ask for a consensus on, as our best guess on the historical use of weapons:
longbow > crossbow > sling > shortbow (classical bow)
while allowing that in each case, there are situations where a weapon beats the one directly above it. The longbow is powerful and long-ranged; the crossbow could with mechanical aids approach the power of the longbow and perhaps exceed it; slings were devastating at delivering forceful hits but had trouble defeating heavier armors; shortbows provided a tremendous advancement in range and penetrating power over simple thrown weapons.
Oh, I got another one.
I would like the sling to be a better ranged weapon than a melee weapon.
I believe that a melee slinger could currently take the feat sling flail, power attack, etc, and come really close if not beat the dps of ranged human slingers.
Level 10 fighter with 22 str.
wf sling, sling flail, power attack, ws sling.
1d4+9(str)+9(pa)+2(figher)+2(ws)= 1d4+22 before any magical items other than a str belt are added in.
No, I want the SLINGER to be better. So do many in this thread. Not all, but some.
And by better, I mean have fun, useful and unique options that don't equate to simply enhancing DPR and allow the slinger to be useful to the party w/out being damage guy. THAT would make taking the sling fun.
Sounds like a good niche for an archetype. I'd be all for that.
Right now my options are "I could take the bow and do all the damage, I could take the crossbow and do most of the damage, or I could take the sling and do some of the damage..."
Without an archetype for combat maneuvers or the like I don't see much difference in game play between "stand here and fire shots that do damage" between different weapons.
Putting it aside that that'll almost NEVER happen, except if the situation is engineered to (remember that episode where Aquaman got to shine? Yeah, it's like that).
Its a simple weapon.
It is aquaman.
If you want it to be superman... play superman.
WHY do you want the sling to be better?
Don't confuse "better than it is now" with "best" or even "equal to the rest." Although it's easy to miss in this 1000+ count thread, everyone is pretty much arguing for the "better than it is now" or for things to stay the same.
Also, we originally included the halfling sling staff, which is exotic, but it's worse than the sling after all but the lowest levels of the game. So we reverted to comparing things with the sling.
OK, ciretose, I just quick threw together a 10th level archer doing 74.9 mean DPR, with 14K gp of wealth not spent, and I got tired of fiddling with it to wring out more damage. To be generous, I'm willing to set the archer's DPR at 50% of enemy health (65 hp), which means the slinger's goal should be 48.75 hp/rd. (That also means that an archer is killing a monster in 2 rounds, and it's taking the slinger 3 rounds to do the same, so in a real sense the slinger would be only 67% as effective, not 75%.)
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Oh, I got another one.
I would like the sling to be a better ranged weapon than a melee weapon.
I believe that a melee slinger could currently take the feat sling flail, power attack, etc, and come really close if not beat the dps of ranged human slingers.
Level 10 fighter with 22 str.
wf sling, sling flail, power attack, ws sling.1d4+9(str)+9(pa)+2(figher)+2(ws)= 1d4+22 before any magical items other than a str belt are added in.
I was actually going to do this as an alternate build.
Still working on the human slinger. Got all the basics by 6th level (except GWF at 8th), now I'm looking for specifics to boost with the last 4 feats...
Without an archetype for combat maneuvers or the like I don't see much difference in game play between "stand here and fire shots that do damage" between different weapons.
Yes, but the sling is horrible at even that. Plus, the sling has no other special thing, other than being usable as a melee weapon with a feat.
I'd like to see something like
Richocet Shot
Prerequisites: BAB+6, point blank shot, precise shot
Effect: When attacking an enemy within 30 feet, if you beat the enemy's AC by 5 or more or confirm a critical, repeat the attack against a different enemy within 15 feet of the original enemy.
That would roughly equal manyshot in power and make slings fun to use.
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It has no advantage in ease of acquiring ammo. Both weapons have ubiquitous ammunition and an archer has an easier time crafting new arrows than you do casting new metal bullets.
BOWS really have a lower rate of fire than a fantasy 'bow' as well, but no one's holding that against them - instead the lack of cost or drawbacks on the bows are used as the new floor beneath-which the 'lesser' weapons must be dragged under and beaten.
SIMPLE weapons are a half-feat behind at worst. If you can't be proficient with a martial weapon right out of the box at character creation, you actively, specifically chose to be not a physical combatant at every step.
As long as the feat is a half-feat worse than the bow, fine.
But right now it's nowhere NEAR that, and you know it as well as I.
Casting lead is SO much easier. i pour lead balls of muzzleloading rifles, all you need is a pot to melt in, a heat source, a ladle and a mold. I also have some knowledge of fletching arrows after you find the right wood, straighten it, set the head, make the head. Nah buddy bullets are far easier and faster.
In fact, early riflemen were often expected to recover spent ammunition and recast it themselves.
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Here is what I got so far. Still have 8k in WBL, focusing purely on damage at this point and open to suggestion.
Remember this is an optimization build to meet the goalpost, as always check my work.
Human Slinger
Str 20 (17+ 1 +2 belt)
Dex 20 (17+ 1 +2 Belt)
Con 12
Int 7
Wis 10
Cha 7
Weapon Training +4 (Gloves of Dualing)
Traits: Racial Heritage (Halfling)
Will +1
Feats:
Human Racial Heritage
Weapon Focus
1 Point Blank
Fighter 1 Precise
Fighter 2 Ammo Drop
3 Rapid Shot
Fighter 4 WS
5 Deadly Aim
Fighter 6 Arc Slinger
7 PB Master
Fighter 8 Greater WF
9 Halfling Slinger
Fighter 10
Point Blank/DA/Rapid shot/Boots of speed +22/+22/+22/+17 1d4 +22
So for 10 rounds a day (Boots of Haste) the formula I believe would be
.90(24.5)+.05*24.5*.90 = 22.1 per full attack (X3)
.65(25.5)+.05*24.5*.60 = 15.96 per full attack
DPR = 82.41 in the with point blank and haste 10 rounds a day.
Yes it is incomplete, but I want feedback before I go on as it was higher than I expected so I figure I messed up somewhere.
EDITED: CWheezy's catch. Let me know what else you catch
Yes, but the sling is horrible at even that. Plus, the sling has no other special thing, other than being usable as a melee weapon with a feat.
And gives you a ranged weapon with your strength mod before you can afford the strength bow: its why most of my low level characters start with one.
I like the feat.
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Yes, but the sling is horrible at even that. Plus, the sling has no other special thing, other than being usable as a melee weapon with a feat.
And gives you a ranged weapon with your strength mod before you can afford the strength bow: its why most of my low level characters start with one.
I like the feat.
Which I would use the fighter bonus feat replacement for Point Blank Mastery.
Anyone can meet a high DPR if they cheat. In your case, Ciretose, you violated 3 terms:
1. Stats too high
2. No racial traits
3. Mean DPR as listed, meaning that pretending 10 rounds/day of haste is permanent is a no-go.
If you want the higher stats, fine, but I'll rebuild the archer and you'll STILL have to do 75% of his DPR. If you want a couple or rounds a day of haste to count, I'll give it to the archer, too, and you'll STILL have to match 75% of his DPR. And, again, no racial traits, so halfling slinger is specifically out -- it was at the start, and remains so.
Sorry, dude, you can't do it without cheating.
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Anyone can meet a high DPR if they cheat. In your case, Ciretose, you violated 3 terms:
1. Stats too high
2. No racial traits
3. Mean DPR as listed, meaning that pretending 10 rounds/day of haste is permanent is a no-go.If you want the higher stats, fine, but I'll rebuild the archer and you'll STILL have to do 75% of his DPR. If you want a couple or rounds a day of haste to count, I'll give it to the archer, too, and you'll STILL have to match 75% of his DPR. And, again, no racial traits, so halfling slinger is specifically out -- it was at the start, and remains so.
Sorry, dude, you can't do it without cheating.
I didn't agree to your terms. I asked what your goalposts were.
I set terms by asking for a number. You counter offered and I didn't accept.
Anyone can limit if they set arbitrary restrictions...
Anyone can limit if they set arbitrary restrictions...
And anyone can meet any DPR if they don't accept any limits.
Like I said -- you want higher stats? Fine, take them, and I'll rebuild the archer.
You want haste to count -- use it, and I'll give it to the archer, too.
And you still won't make 75% of his DPR without using racial traits, and probably not with them, either. And if we're shooting at a target at some distance, you'll fail miserably.
Face it, a slinger will never be 75% as good as an archer under the RAW, all other things being equal.
I asked what your goalposts were.
I told you: 75% of what an equal archer can do. You failed to meet them.