Try to reconcile that with 'sling outranges bow
The comparison is with shortbows, not compound longbows. We are talking about Persian and Parthian bows. Pathfinder does not allow for the ancient longbows and normal bows of the pre-English longbow world, but we are charitably classing them as shortbows.
It is two feats to get to reloading as a free action that does not provoke, and the rest are feats taken by both.
And those other 3 feats are giving the longbow an even greater advantage, so it pulls even further ahead. I'm looking at what it takes to make a sling equal to a baseline composite longbow -- by just applying enough enhancements and/or feats to the former until it equals the latter as-bought.
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- The sling is a one handed weapon and gets the AC benefits of a buckler when fired.
It needs two hands to reload, though. If we assume that a Pathfinder sling-user will be firing and reloading in the same turn, using the shield-hand to reload probably negates the AC bonus of the buckler.
The wording for buckler mentions using a weapon in the off-hand negating the AC, which I would extrapolate to mean any activity with that hand that required movement and concentration, including loading. You can, of course, go strictly by the exact wording, but I can't see a buckler being very effective when the arm it is strapped to is being used to rummage in an ammunition pouch.
If that is the case, the slinger gets the buckler's AC when firing, but not reloading, hence for only half the turn! Work that one out, I bet there would be many an argument at table about the exact ruling.
Bows and crossbows, of course, are expressly mentioned as getting no penalty when using a buckler. Not so the poor old sling.
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I'd like to propose a poll:
If you are still reading this thread (my last post was about 600 posts back and the arguments seem to be no further forward):
1. Do you think a 'Slinger' archetype would ADD to the game of Pathfinder?
Yes: One vote (that's me).
No: Nil.
Yes
But it wouldn't add as much as PDT relooking at a couple of feats and racial abilities and expanding them through errata or FAQ to cover slings, and or sling like weapons.
Rapid Reload and Warslinger I am looking a you.
For posterity, you are missing some pros/cons in your analysis.
1. Weapon Focus (required for Weapon Specialization) needs to be taken by the bow to equate your comparison (for the +1 to hit it gives).
2. The sling is able to be easily hidden, so you need to add a Glamer effect to the longbow.
3. The range of the sling is half the longbow.
4. The sling is a one handed weapon and gets the AC benefits of a buckler when fired.
5. The sling can make use of slightly degraded ammunition, so can nearly be assumed to be unlimited ammo. This isn't big, but for posterity...
1. and 3. I covered together -- the sling's much lower range increment means it's less accurate over the same distance -- hence the bonus to attacks needed. One could alternatively give the sling the distance property or some kind of Far Shot feat, and also give the bow Weapon Focus, but the disparity is the same.
2. What is the DC difference for spotting a sling, vs. a bow? If there isn't one, it's fluff.4. Two hands to reload, as noted.
5. This is true. Then again, if my sword breaks I can use my fist, but that's not really much of a selling point for melee weapons in general.
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2. What is the DC difference for spotting a sling, vs. a bow? If there isn't one, it's fluff.
4. Two hands to reload, as noted.
2. If in your game a Bow (a solid object at least 3 feet long) is no easier to hide than a sling, that is fiat that defies logic and reason.
3. Arc Slinger, which actually increases the point blank range as well
4. Two hands to reload but no penalty to attack when doing so with a buckler.
5. Your fists are at a much higher penalty than improvised ammunition in the same weapon you have all your feats in, with the bonuses from the sling itself.
@Sadurian - Still waiting for your non-composite short bow build.
2. If in your game a Bow (a solid object at least 3 feet long) is no easier to hide than a sling, that is fiat that defies logic and reason.
I'm not talking about "my game." I'm talking about the RAW.
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2. If in your game a Bow (a solid object at least 3 feet long) is no easier to hide than a sling, that is fiat that defies logic and reason.I'm not talking about "my game." I'm talking about the RAW.
RAW is the fallback when your argument falls flat based on reason.
RAW is doesn't say I "can't" fold a 3 foot solid object...
RAW is the fallback when your argument falls flat based on reason.
So, you're saying we should all ignore RAW and make slings better, right?
RAW doesn't say you can disguise a sling as an eyepatch with a 100% chance of pulling it off against all observers. It doesn't say you can disguise an unstrung bow as a hocky stick or a rake handle or within a bouquet of roses, Terminator-style. Are any of these "more reasonable" than others? How much more?
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RAW doesn't say you can disguise a sling as an eyepatch with a 100% chance of pulling it off against all observers. It doesn't say you can disguise an unstrung bow as a hocky stick or a rake handle or within a bouquet of roses, Terminator-style. Are any of these "more reasonable" than others? How much more?
love that scene. Gonna watch it when I get home.
The DC was automatic failure hiding the bow and automatic success hiding the sling. It came up in PFS sessions more than once. There was a penalty for carrying a viewable weapon (and armor).
So, if I pretend my sling is an eyepatch, even though it's obviously not, I automatically pull it off, and obervers have a DC infinity chance of noticing. If I put my unstrung bow in among a large bundle of sticks and twigs, it's impossible to do so, and the chance for anyone to spot the bow in there is DC 0? And ciretose says that assigning relatively comparable DCs "defies logic and reason"? I feel like Alice.
I miss the weapons tables in the James Bond 007 game. In addition to weight and damage and so on, they had concealment DCs listed right there, so there was no confusion.
The DC was automatic failure hiding the bow and automatic success hiding the sling. It came up in PFS sessions more than once. There was a penalty for carrying a viewable weapon (and armor).So, if I pretend my sling is an eyepatch, even though it's obviously not, I automatically pull it off, and obervers have a DC infinity chance of noticing. If I put my unstrung bow in among a large bundle of sticks and twigs, it's impossible to do so, and the chance for anyone to spot the bow in there is DC 0? And ciretose says that assigning relatively comparable DCs "defies logic and reason"? I feel like Alice.
I miss the weapons tables in the James Bond 007 game. In addition to weight and damage and so on, they had concealment DCs listed right there, so there was no confusion.
hmmmm....
@Sadurian - Still waiting for your non-composite short bow build.
Why exactly?
Will that show that slings outdistance shortbows or do more damage? I think that very unlikely.
Did I say that I would make a shortbow build? No.
So why are you waiting for it? Do you have a new supply of straw that you are waiting to use?
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yes. But still the sling have to be better by itselfs.uments seem to be no further forward):
1. Do you think a 'Slinger' archetype would ADD to the game of Pathfinder?
Yes: One vote (that's me).
No: Nil.
Maybe, it depends on what you want from the game. If the lack of a realistic representation of the sling is the problem then the mechanics for the sling itself need changing.
If the problem is that the rules do not allow a player to build an 'heroic' slinger character that can hold his head up in the company of bowmen, then a new archetype might help.
Ideally, of course, both would be looked at.
[Don't shoot the messenger.
I'm not blaming you for that state of affairs; I'm just incredulous that this is what passes for "logic and reason" by people like ciretose.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Alright, I'm just gonna ask - WTF is being argued here? I keep trying to figure out what proposition ciretose is making that gets people hot and bothered, but all I see is stuff about killing horses with slings and using them as eyepatches.
Is the argument about whether a slinger is as effective as a bowman of some stripe?
It the argument that the sling, while worse than a bow, is still not horrible?
Is the argument that the sling, while worse than a bow, is still a viable choice for characters who don't have martial weapon proficiency?
Is the argument that the sling should be made better so that it doesn't suck as much as it currently does?
Help me out, people! I don't understand how we got 23+ pages out of the sling.
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Don't shoot the messenger.
Well, at least not with any kind of a bow anyway. Here, use this sling instead...
Is the argument that the sling should be made better so that it doesn't suck as much as it currently does?
That's my argument, but I can't speak for anyone else. I get tetchy when someone like SKR says "attacking someone with a sling is like attacking them with water baloons, so we make them really, really suck, because wanting them to be actual weapons is badwrongfun."
Alright, I'm just gonna ask - WTF is being argued here? I keep trying to figure out what proposition ciretose is making that gets people hot and bothered, but all I see is stuff about killing horses with slings and using them as eyepatches.
Is the argument about whether a slinger is as effective as a bowman of some stripe?
It the argument that the sling, while worse than a bow, is still not horrible?
Is the argument that the sling, while worse than a bow, is still a viable choice for characters who don't have martial weapon proficiency?
Is the argument that the sling should be made better so that it doesn't suck as much as it currently does?
Help me out, people! I don't understand how we got 23+ pages out of the sling.
I hate to say it but...yes. All of the above have been debated through the thread. My original intention was to have a discussion of what ELSE besides damage the slinger could do better than the archer, in order to move towards a cool niche build for the slinger but there's little that the sling does that the bow or archers don't already do, and in some cases better.
My hope is, as Nicos put it, that the slinger can do "cool things" that are unique to them.
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RAW is the fallback when your argument falls flat based on reason.So, you're saying we should all ignore RAW and make slings better, right?
I'm saying if you aren't willing to concede that a 3 to 6 foot stick is harder to conceal that a strap, you seemed to be more interested in "winning" than having a legitimate discussion.
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Remember, I posted the level by level comparison of the human slinger and human archer with equivalent build goals. The halfling slinger with free reload access was the comparable version. The human slinger was behind at every step and at the end state.I didn't. I also posted the human, remember.2. The sling was comparable when you remove manyshot.The sling was comparable if you removed Many Shot and it was free action reload. Don't forget that second part.
There were two goalposts set.
Mine and Nicos.
I made mine, I didn't make Nicos with manyshot, but did without manyshot.
If you are arguing for equality with the best possible ranged option in the game, I don't agree with the premise.
If you are arguing for viability, I think we are there. (My goalpost)
If you are arguing for competitive with optimal, manyshot is the difference (Nico's goalpost)
Manyshot is the difference. Remove manyshot, or make deadly aim precision damage, and the human reaches both mine and Nico's goalpost.
I'm saying if you aren't willing to concede that a 3 to 6 foot stick is harder to conceal that a strap, you seemed to be more interested in "winning" than having a legitimate discussion.
If you aren't willing to concede that trying to use a sling as an "eyepatch" is way more obvious than carrying a 3-6 foot stick inside a bundle of other sticks of similar size, I don't know what to say.
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Not to mention that the builds showed the arcehr outdamaging the slinger by 50+ point in melee range. So ciretoce argument is pointless.the bow is ranged only, while the sling can dual purpose.This is a non-sequitor. Have each guy carry a short sword and drop their ranged weapon when people close. Having the sling or bow be able to double as a half-ass melee weapon isn't really all that much to write home about, and certainly isn't worth basing your character on.
Unless of course you use the fighter ability to retrain sling flail to point blank mastery, meaning I get the melee attack sooner and have access at the the exact same level the Archer gets it. So I can then I switch to point blank master.
Which means same numbers for both.
One thing I'll say in the defense of sling concealability: if all else fails it can be balled up and stuffed inside of something else. You'd need a folding bow for that level of concealment. I'm not saying this is good or bad, just pointing out the obvious.
A sling would make a pretty convincing jock strap...
Now I'm totally going to make a character like the guys in Clockwork Orange.
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I'm saying if you aren't willing to concede that a 3 to 6 foot stick is harder to conceal that a strap, you seemed to be more interested in "winning" than having a legitimate discussion.If you aren't willing to concede that trying to use a sling as an "eyepatch" is way more obvious than carrying a 3-6 foot stick inside a bundle of other sticks of similar size, I don't know what to say.
Why eyepatch? I can put it in my pocket. I can wear it under my clothes, in my pants, etc...
Can you put a 3 to 6 foot stick in your pocket? Wear it under your clothes? Stuff in in your underwear...
You really want to keep arguing hiding a bow is the same as hiding a sling? Really?
You really want to keep arguing hiding a bow is the same as hiding a sling? Really?
My argument, if you read it, was that auto-success for any half-ass sling concealment, vs. auto-failure for any kind of bow concealment, no matter how elaborate, is not what I'd call "reasonable."
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ciretose - is your basic position that the sling is fine as is? Is there more to it than that?
To sum up
- The sling is viable as is, you can do what would be your share of damage if you invest in sling as your primary weapon (1/4 Hit Points of DPR)
- The Sling was largely obsolete as a ranged weapon during the period the setting mimics, so having it be sub-optimal as a ranged weapon makes perfect sense.
- The sling has some advantages relative to the longbow that shouldn't be discounted. It is smaller, easier to conceal, can double as a melee weapon, can dual melee wield, etc...
- The damage difference is primarily one feat: Manyshot. If there is an issue, that is it. Personally I think making deadly aim precision damage "fixes" the discrepancy. But bumping up slings because Bows are really good is like giving all the skinny kids cake so the fat kid doesn't feel bad.
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You really want to keep arguing hiding a bow is the same as hiding a sling? Really?My argument, if you read it, was that auto-success for any half-ass sling concealment, vs. auto-failure for any kind of bow concealment, no matter how elaborate, is not what I'd call "reasonable."
But then will you concede the hiding a 3 to 6 foot long bow is significantly more difficult than hiding what is basically a strap of fabric or leather.
Because that was the point being stated.
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ciretose - is your basic position that the sling is fine as is? Is there more to it than that?To sum up
- The sling is viable as is, you can do what would be your share of damage if you invest in sling as your primary weapon (1/4 Hit Points of DPR)
- The Sling was largely obsolete as a ranged weapon during the period the setting mimics, so having it be sub-optimal as a ranged weapon makes perfect sense.
- The sling has some advantages relative to the longbow that shouldn't be discounted. It is smaller, easier to conceal, can double as a melee weapon, can improvise armor, etc...
- The damage difference is primarily one feat: Manyshot. If there is an issue, that is it. Personally I think making deadly aim precision damage "fixes" the discrepancy. But bumping up slings because Bows are really good is like giving all the skinny kids cake so the fat kid doesn't feel bad.
So a 50' range increment on a weapon that IRL had a range at least equal to an english longbow is ignored.
Needing 2 feats from a fairly obscure book just to have a similar firing rate to a bow when they had nearly identical firing rates IRL is ignored.I don't really care about Manyshot, viability comparisons or whether or not I can use a sling as a belt and walk around with it. I would like a weapon to at least in some form mimic the real life version of itself. The sling in no way does this. The sling as presented in Pathfinder and 3.5 should be renamed into the slingshot since that is more in line with what it emulates.
I guess we should all just ignore everything everybody else puts forth in this thread and keep restating our own positions with no change for another 18 pages. Seems like that is what you are doing here Ciretose.