What is the DEAL with slings?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

701 to 750 of 1,399 << first < prev | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | next > last >>
Dark Archive

3 people marked this as a favorite.

Here's something to consider. When only looking at the Core Rulebook, the sling is absolutely horrible. Only with an alternate racial trait or two feats from a splatbook can a character reload a sling as a free action. That feat that ciretose keeps citing for using a sling in melee came out in Ultimate Combat.

What that means is that the sling as written is broken. I think it is a major problem when a book comes out with weapons that don't work, and both the sling and the sling staff are like that in the CRB. Paizo has released some material that makes the sling slightly better, but nothing has changed the sling staff from being essentially a waste of a feat.

Does anyone else think it's a problem? If a character needed a feat from the APG to make a full attack with a greatsword, that would be an issue, right? Or would people say "pfft, you should just use greataxes!"

I really must state that the ability to use it in melee does not make up for the inability to full attack. A longbowman can pick up Improved Unarmed Strike and be many times more effective than someone who has wasted a feat on Exotic Weapon Proficiency: sling staff.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

It is weird that the orc double axe do works. It is a totally unrealistic weapon, but we do not see anyone asking to nerf it cause it breaks world verosimilutude or something.

Dark Archive

Actually, I would find it really weird if the orc double axe didn't work in Pathfinder, because it was released in the Core Rulebook, and I expect the things in the Core Rulebook to work.

If they don't work, I expect that they will eventually be fixed. The sling and the sling staff are both things that could actually use some errata, because they don't work looking only at the book in which they were written.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Also, we don't care when unrealism works in something's favor.

No, scratch that. We actually prefer it when it does.

The issue here is that the Sling is unfairly nerfed because somebody six or thirty-six years ago said that slings should suck for no good reason. We don't mind the unrealistic buffing or workaround of a chosen ite, just when it comes to the detriment of other weapons.

Though it does slightly bug me that a Greatsword does more base damage than a Greataxe.


I do sort of care when unrealism boosts a weapon to the point of being a 'must have'. I agree with Sama about the greatsword/greataxe, for example. The 'longsword' (which left realism when it was named) is a good example - it has become the standard sidearm of the FRPG warrior since the game began yet was never the primary killing choice for a man-at-arms going into battle. It is good against unarmoured foes, of course, but most PCs don't swap weapons according to their opponent.

I get just as annoyed with weapon systems that leave perfectly good weapons unnaturally weakened. The sling is just one example but the warhammer and some polearms are another. The old AD&D weapons were worse, it must be said (who can forget the totally useless battleaxe in its AD&D persona?), but Pathfinder has inherited a number of faults from that system.

My view is that player choice is a good reflection of the mechanical advantages or otherwise of a weapon. If a weapon was given mechanical qualities that properly reflected its real-life qualities, then this should be reflected in how players use them. Nearly every weapon had an advantage that made it the best choice in a given situation. The mace or warhammer crushed armour, the spear gave reach, deadly wounds and accuracy, the dagger was fast and handy in close quarters. Yet very few of these weapons see extensive use in Pathfinder (or D&D), which leads me to the conclusion that they are mechanically misrepresented.


Ilja wrote:
Rory wrote:

Technically, the feats Ammo Drop and Juggle Load could still apply to the halfling sling staff.

Not really. The argument FOR warslinger affecting the sling staff was that "sling" would be used in a general sense, much like how "sword" or "axe" can be used to refer to anything named sword/axe. However, AD/JL state "a sling or double sling", clearly indicating sling as not being in the general but specific sense.

That is a potential interpretation, I agree.

However, "a sling" is singular and "double sling" can be confused with plural. The wording in AD/JL could be to clarify this and not to specifically exclude the racial sling. This is also a potential interpretation.

So, technically, AD/JL still could apply to the halfling sling staff.

Now for the hilarious conundrum...

A double sling is two slings on a stick. A halfling sling staff is one sling on a stick. Ammo Drop and Juggle Load can free action load a double sling but don't work on a halfling sling staff?

That's funny!

Liberty's Edge

Kirth Gersen wrote:
ciretose wrote:
You seem bothered that a club isn't as good as a sword. I'm not. I would be bothered if the guy with the club is the same the guy with the sword, all other things being equal.
It's when all other things aren't equal is my concern. If the club guy spends feats on it, it should be better in his hands than a sword. Yes, it bothers me that it's not.

But not better than the sword user who also spends feats on swords, because swords are better than clubs. So equal investment does not mean equal outcome.

This is the disconnect.

Liberty's Edge

Nicos wrote:

Oh come on, you ca nnot really use a slig as a melee weapon unless you spend another feat on it..

At what level does a human slinger becomes good? at what level can he attack in melee, reload as free action and actually be good at killing things at distance.

The slinger will suck ate melee and will suck at ranged combat.

Which is why you invest the feat. For the same cost involved in going from simple to martial I have a weapon that is both ranged, melee and adds strength.

We have started from the assumption that slings suck. I've ask several times to set a level and see what can be made at that level.

But at first level a fighter or a martial class human can have the sling be a flail with weapon focus that works both ranged and melee. A first level fighter then still has a feat to spend depending on how they plan on using the sling most (or if they want to use the disarm or trip qualities of the flail aspect)

So my answer is to "At what level does a human slinger becomes good?" is 1st level.


ciretose wrote:

So equal investment does not mean equal outcome.

This is the disconnect.

I'm talking about "greater investment leads to a lesser outcome," not equal investment, so let's keep the goalposts and the discussion on that track.

Dark Archive

1 person marked this as a favorite.

At what level does a human slinger stop being good? At second level.


Ooor they could simply have a spear which is also both melee, ranged and adds strength. Which costs exactly 0 feats.

And the question isnt "at what level does a slinger become good" - at first level warriorwith rich parents, a splintmail, composite longbow, heavy shield and battleaxe is fantastic. That does not mean the warrior is an even decent class.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

If Vital Strike gave extra bonus damage for single-shot weapons (instead of being based on your weapon damage dice), then it could be really good for crossbows and slings. You'd take a bow if you wanted to shoot a bunch of arrows, and you'd take a crossbow or sling if you wanted to make the extra investment (greater, not equal, ciretose) and be able to deal massive damage with one hit.

Unfortunately, a bow is currently better for that, too.


The single shot weapons should probably have way higher damage dice to begin with, but no Rapid Reload and similar feats. At least that's how I'd do it.

Or Vital Strike could be an "auto crit", and have bows with low crit numbers and single shot weapons with a high one.

Like this:

Quote:

Vital Strike:

When you make a single attack action with a weapon, you can instead make a Vital Strike. If you hit, you deal damage equal to the base damage of the weapon, multiplied by its critical multiplier. Add your damage bonuses from strength, enhancements, precision, etc. on top of that damage.

Or something like that.

Bonus: it'd scale if you got some feat or class abilities that improve the crit multiplier, so you wouldn't need the feat-chain for it.


ciretose wrote:
So my answer is to "At what level does a human slinger becomes good?" is 1st level.

The definition of a slinger is "a person who uses a sling to throw something".

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Slinger

Assume: STR 14, Weapon Focus Sling, Sling Flail, Point Blank Shot

This is a level 1 human slinger:

one attack of 1d4+2 at range (using a sling)
one attack of 1d8+3 in melee (using a sling-flail)

This is a level 1 human slinger on other weapons:

one attack of 1d8+2 at range (using a composite long bow)
one attack of 2d6+3 in melee (using a great sword)

Any questions?

(where is the frying egg sound when you need it)

EDIT: Ciretose, I meant this to be funny. I apologize in advance if you do happen to read this the wrong way. It was not intended to slight you or anyone else.

Liberty's Edge

Kirth Gersen wrote:
ciretose wrote:

So equal investment does not mean equal outcome.

This is the disconnect.
I'm talking about "greater investment leads to a lesser outcome," not equal investment, so let's keep the goalposts and the discussion on that track.

I agree 100%

And I'm not seeing a lot of discussion about if this is true or not.

A sling is a simple weapon (less investment) that can be used both for ranged and melee (regardless of class) that adds strength. It is small enough to hide on your person, and the melee variation has disarm and trip features.

The discussion is comparing it's ranged attack to a martial weapon (more investment) that can't be used in melee without class features (point blank mastery is only available to 2 classes)

There is an assumption that a sling is horrible, but little to no evidence backing up that assertion.

Is a simple weapon less effective in a martial build? Probably, since martial weapon proficiency is a major boon to martial builds. It is basically a free series of feats.

I've played slingers. They can be very effective. But having the threshold be "As good at one thing as something that does one thing the best of any thing in the game" isn't a realistic or reasonable goal.

Liberty's Edge

Mergy wrote:
At what level does a human slinger stop being good? At second level.

If you want to do side by side builds, I'm more than willing.

Liberty's Edge

Ilja wrote:

Ooor they could simply have a spear which is also both melee, ranged and adds strength. Which costs exactly 0 feats.

And the question isnt "at what level does a slinger become good" - at first level warrior with rich parents, a splintmail, composite longbow, heavy shield and battleaxe is fantastic. That does not mean the warrior is an even decent class.

They could. And when they throw the spear it is done for the combat.

As I said, I'm open to side by side builds.


Both bows and crossbows can be used in melee.


Then begin by actually posting a slinger build.


ciretose wrote:
Mergy wrote:
At what level does a human slinger stop being good? At second level.
If you want to do side by side builds, I'm more than willing.

Level 10, 20 PB, standar WBL, two traits. A human annd a halfling slinger. We then compare him against a human or halfling archer.

=============

Curiously how the halfling needs and optional rule (traits) to suck less with his racial weapon.


Drawing a new spear is an equal action to reloading a sling.

In fact, you can draw it for free with quickdraw.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Martial is arguably a non-investment. It requires actively avoiding numerous methods by which one could even 'accidentally' be proficient with one or more martial weapons, in ADDITION to choosing a class not at all built for weapon based combat in any way.

So what we're really seeing is a simple weapon that requires feat and trait investment to operate normally* at range, and must be stitched through full round actions to be used in melee, being compared to a weapon that operates normally without any investment whatsoever, will get to inflict strength to damage for a piddling amount of cash when this becomes relevant [it is equal to the sling at levels where the bonus is small enough to simply make up for the die size difference] AND which is still superior to a 2-4 feat investment into the sling, even for said sling user as-is.

That's the problem. Your alternatives aren't just better than the sling once invested in. They're SO much better than a sling that AFTER investing multiple traits and feats into operating slings, you are STILL better off using these other weapons with no such investment.

Several of said ranged weapons, including the bow, have less actual penalties in regard to melee, or have penalties which can be easily bypassed at little to no cost [armor spikes, spiked buckler, cestus, etc], with said bypasses, again at no investment other than a handful of gold, STILL, AGAIN, being out-of-the-box better than the sling option WITH all its investment added in.

Rangewise you see a similar issue with crossbow vs bow, where spending 2-3 feats more than an archer only brings you up to a FRACTION of the bow's actual combat output.

*"Normal Operation" is One attack and a move action OR Full Attack - expending a move action on getting to do your one attack is leaving you short an action. normal operation also involves only one AoO for ranged attacking, as opposed to two, which you get from weapons with a load action. This is the standard to which the basic weapon, the bow, is held.


Halfling the Ranged Guy

S: 13 D: 18 C: 14 I: 10 W: 10 Ch: 10 (20 pt halfling)

Stat Points @4th/8th:
- exact same for each

Traits:
- exact same for each

Racial Traits:
Archer: +10 ft movement
Slinger: free action load sling

Feats:

Archer:
Point Blank Shot (1st)
Rapid Shot (fighter 1)
Precise Shot (fighter 2)
Deadly Aim (3rd)
Weapon Focus Long Bow (fighter 4)
Weapon Specialization Long Bow (5th)
Point Blank Master (fighter 6)
Many Shot (7th)
Improved Critical Long Bow (fighter 8)
Snap Shot (9th)
Great Weapon Focus Long Bow (fighter 10)

Slinger:
Point Blank Shot (1st)
Rapid Shot (fighter 1)
Precise Shot (fighter 2)
Deadly Aim (3rd)
Weapon Focus Sling (fighter 4)
Weapon Specialization Sling (5th)
Sling Flail(fighter 6)
Power Attack (7th)
Improved Critical Sling (fighter 8)
??? (9th)
Great Weapon Focus Sling (fighter 10)

(I aimed to keep them pretty close to the same build strategy to eliminate variables and to simulate the same build desire)

Listing the differences...

All Levels:

Archer: +10 ft movement, -1000gp for Adaptive on bow starting at level 4

Level 1:

Range Archer: 1d6 bow attacks, 1d6+STR after composite bow, better crit
Range Slinger: 1d3+STR sling attacks starting at level 1
Melee Both: Same

Level 2 thru Level 5:

Range Archer: 1d6 composite longbow, better crit
Range Slinger: 1d3 sling attacks
Melee Both: Same

Level 6:

Range Archer: 1d6 after composite bow, better crit
Range Slinger: 1d3 sling attacks
Melee Archer: 1d6 Long Bow (Deadly Aim and Point Blank Shot apply), better crit
Melee Slinger: 1d6 Sling Flail (+2 to trip and disarm), better AOOs

Level 7 thru Level 8:

Range Archer: 1d6 after composite bow, better crit, MANY SHOT
Range Slinger: 1d3 sling attacks
Melee Archer: 1d6 Long Bow (Point Blank Shot applies), better crit, MANY SHOT
Melee Slinger: 1d6 Sling Flail (+2 to trip and disarm), better AOOs

Level 9 thru Level 10:

Slinger: 1 unspent feat

Range Archer: 1d6 after composite bow, better crit, MANY SHOT
Range Slinger: 1d3 sling attacks
Melee Archer: 1d6 Long Bow (Point Blank Shot applies), better crit, MANY SHOT, better AOOs
Melee Slinger: 1d6 Sling Flail (+2 to trip and disarm)

End State:

Archer: +10 foot movement, better range, better melee, better AOOs
Slinger: 1 feat to spend, +2 to trip and disarm

Changing the halfling sling staff to work with Warslinger would change the final state to the following.

Archer: +10 foot movement, MANY SHOT, better melee, better AOOs
Slinger: 2 feats to spend

Conclusion

The halfling slinger is not terrible. Sling stats do not need to change if you can free action load it. The sling is slightly worse than the bow over the course of the character's life, but it is comparable.

Many Shot is what gives the bow the distinct advantage at later levels.

EDIT: Loading a sling causing an AOO is what allows the longbow to be the better melee weapon.


Wait, how are these comparable, again?

  • Sling +18 (1d3+3/19-20/x2)
  • Bow +17/+12 (1d6+3/19-20/x3)

    (Ignoring Manyshot for the time being)
    EDIT: Ah, I missed the assumtion that you can free-action load a sling, which would presumably allow iterative attacks with it. I fail to see why slings should be limited to halflings, rather than orcs and humans and so on, but whatever.

  • The Exchange

    Im still mad the mere is weaker than a stick

    Liberty's Edge

    Ilja wrote:
    Both bows and crossbows can be used in melee.

    As improvised clubs with penalties?

    Liberty's Edge

    Nicos wrote:
    ciretose wrote:
    Mergy wrote:
    At what level does a human slinger stop being good? At second level.
    If you want to do side by side builds, I'm more than willing.

    Level 10, 20 PB, standar WBL, two traits. A human annd a halfling slinger. We then compare him against a human or halfling archer.

    =============

    Curiously how the halfling needs and optional rule (traits) to suck less with his racial weapon.

    Sure. I will have it up this evening.

    And I won't even use the racial trait if it offends you.

    Liberty's Edge

    LoneKnave wrote:

    Drawing a new spear is an equal action to reloading a sling.

    In fact, you can draw it for free with quickdraw.

    If you have extra spears of equal quality to the sling.


    Yeah, I'd like to see a human slinger vs. human archer, so that "only halflings can use slings" isn't a de facto part of the scenario.

    Liberty's Edge

    Kirth Gersen wrote:
    Yeah, I'd like to see a human slinger vs. human archer, so that "only halflings can use slings" isn't a de facto part of the scenario.

    I'm also going to add in a non-martial class option, likely a rogue or inquisitor.

    As martial weapon proficiency is a benefit, after all.

    Edit: Meaning I'm going to post three different builds.


    It's more of a freebie than a benefit, but it's your simulation, so have at it.


    Well, I made a halfling slinger vs. human archer at fifth level. At that point, the slinger has finally begun to catch up (though he'll fall way behind again at sixth level). A human slinger deals about the same damage at that level, except he gets one less feat to spend thanks to having to buy Ammo Drop.


    1 person marked this as a favorite.

    +10ft movement, manyshot, better melee, better criticals and better AOOs over the Sling, with a specific race required to even do any of this with a sling, is proof that the sling is perfectly fine? Yeah that's totally a Draw?

    I get it, we're playing "Deadliest Warrior" again aren't we?

    This Pinto got a draw vs your Ferrari thanks to being inexpensive. The Ferrari barely edged it out with drastically higher top speed, better handling, better sound system, better seats, better acceleration, better brakes and actually being fun to drive. I'll admit it was pretty close though.


    ciretose wrote:
    If you have extra spears of equal quality to the sling.

    With certain magical items, no need.

    It IS an extra expense, but it's available.


    ciretose wrote:
    LoneKnave wrote:

    Drawing a new spear is an equal action to reloading a sling.

    In fact, you can draw it for free with quickdraw.

    If you have extra spears of equal quality to the sling.

    Why not? They don't cost a lot (light spear=1gp), and you don't need masterwork spears for throwing. It also does d6 vs the sling's d4, can be used for AoOs, and is also a simple weapon.

    In fact, most throwing weapons (even simple ones) seem to out-perform the sling, which is saying something. All the sling has going forit is a bit better range.


    Jamie Charlan wrote:

    +10ft movement, manyshot, better melee, better criticals and better AOOs over the Sling, with a specific race required to even do any of this with a sling, is proof that the sling is perfectly fine? Yeah that's totally a Draw?

    I get it, we're playing "Deadliest Warrior" again aren't we?

    This Pinto got a draw vs your Ferrari thanks to being inexpensive. The Ferrari barely edged it out with drastically higher top speed, better handling, better sound system, better seats, better acceleration, better brakes and actually being fun to drive. I'll admit it was pretty close though.

    we already covered this upthread. Theissue here, to my understanding, is that the sling is being misrepresented in the main book- you really need two books to see the full range of options for the sling, and that really is an issue, in addition to problems with the damage thrle weapon does (that last may be me, however).

    Digital Products Assistant

    Removed a couple posts. Leave personal insults out of the conversation.


    No, I was taking issue with this part:

    Quote:

    Archer: +10 foot movement, better range, better melee, better AOOs

    Slinger: 1 feat to spend, +2 to trip and disarm

    The sling is slightly worse than the bow over the course of the character's life, but it is comparable.

    HOW can that be the conclusion? The Archer gets a larger die size, additional attacks, negates the small-character speed loss, stops provoking AoOs in melee, greater range, is compatible with bracers of archery, and is only behind on feats technically because he got to pick up snap shot. His melee attack IS the bow now.

    All of the above is somehow worth +2 trip and disarm in melee? Shall we compare that to all those trick-arrows available as even mundane [and thus possibly infinite through magic item generation like abundant ammo quivers] options? It doesn't need help because this difference is totally fine, look they're almost identical? What sort of leap of logic is this?

    Thus my bit about the cars.


    1 person marked this as a favorite.

    Human the Ranged Guy

    S: 14 D: 18 C: 14 I: 10 W: 10 Ch: 10 (20 pt human)

    Stat Points @4th/8th:
    - exact same for each

    Traits:
    - exact same for each

    Racial Traits:
    - exact same for each

    Feats:

    Archer:
    Point Blank Shot (human)
    Rapid Shot (1st)
    Precise Shot (fighter 1)
    Deadly Aim (fighter 2)
    Weapon Focus Long Bow (3rd)
    Weapon Specialization Long Bow (fighter 4)
    <extra feat> (5th)
    Point Blank Master (fighter 6)
    Many Shot (7th)
    Improved Critical Long Bow (fighter 8)
    Snap Shot (9th)
    Great Weapon Focus Long Bow (fighter 10)

    Slinger:
    Ammo Drop (human)
    Juggle Load (1st)
    Point Blank Shot (fighter 1)
    Rapid Shot (fighter 2)
    Precise Shot (3rd)
    Deadly Aim (fighter 4)
    Weapon Focus Sling (5th)
    Sling Flail(fighter 6)
    Power Attack (7th)
    Improved Critical Sling (fighter 8)
    Weapon Specialization Sling (9th)
    Great Weapon Focus Sling (fighter 10)

    (I aimed to keep them pretty close to the same build strategy to eliminate variables and to simulate the same build desire)

    Listing the differences...

    All Levels:

    Archer: -1000gp for Adaptive on bow starting at level 4

    Level 1:

    Range Archer: 1d8 bow attacks, 1d8+STR after composite bow, better crit, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot
    Range Slinger: 1d4+STR sling attacks starting at level 1
    Melee Both: Same

    Level 2:

    Range Archer: 1d8 bow attacks, better crit, Precise Shot, Deadly Aim
    Range Slinger: 1d4 sling attacks
    Melee Both: Same

    Level 3:

    Range Archer: 1d8 bow attacks, better crit, Deadly Aim, +1 to hit
    Range Slinger: 1d4 sling attacks
    Melee Both: Same

    Level 4:

    Range Archer: 1d8+2 bow attacks, better crit, +1 to hit
    Range Slinger: 1d4 sling attacks
    Melee Both: Same

    Level 5:

    Archer: +1 extra feat

    Range Archer: 1d8+2 bow attacks, better crit
    Range Slinger: 1d4 sling attacks
    Melee Both: Same

    Level 6:

    Archer: +1 extra feat

    Range Archer: 1d8+2 bow attacks, better crit
    Range Slinger: 1d4 sling attacks
    Melee Archer: 1d8 Long Bow (Deadly Aim and Point Blank Shot apply), better crit, better to hit (DEX>STR)
    Melee Slinger: 1d8 Sling Flail (+2 to trip and disarm), better AOOs

    Level 7 thru Level 8:

    Archer: +1 extra feat

    Range Archer: 1d8+2 bow attacks, better crit, MANY SHOT
    Range Slinger: 1d4 sling attacks
    Melee Archer: 1d8 Long Bow (Point Blank Shot applies), better crit, MANY SHOT, better to hit (DEX>STR)
    Melee Slinger: 1d8 Sling Flail (+2 to trip and disarm), better AOOs

    Level 9 thru Level 10:

    Archer: +1 extra feat

    Range Archer: 1d8 bow attacks, better crit, MANY SHOT
    Range Slinger: 1d4 sling attacks
    Melee Archer: 1d8 Long Bow (Point Blank Shot applies), better crit, MANY SHOT, better to hit (DEX>STR), better AOOs
    Melee Slinger: 1d8 Sling Flail (+2 to trip and disarm)

    End State:

    Archer: better range, better melee, better AOOs, +1 extra feat
    Slinger: +2 to trip and disarm

    Conclusion

    The human slinger is significantly behind at every level due to the two feats needed to boot strap the ranged option.

    Many Shot is what gives the bow the distinct advantage at later levels.

    Loading a sling causing an AOO is what allows the longbow to be the better melee weapon.


    Now there's an actual conclusion that makes sense. Huge gaps are huge, and should be pointed out as the hugeness that they are.
    Gravity Bow compatibility is also a consideration. Especially for the Humans, where the composite longbow upgrades to 2d6


    Jamie Charlan wrote:

    No, I was taking issue with this part:

    Quote:

    Archer: +10 foot movement, better range, better melee, better AOOs

    Slinger: 1 feat to spend, +2 to trip and disarm

    The sling is slightly worse than the bow over the course of the character's life, but it is comparable.

    HOW can that be the conclusion?

    The conclusion included two items listing what was driving the difference: Many Shot and AOOs from loading the sling.

    If you exclude those two things (Many Shot negating the extra feat, hand waiving the AOO on loading the sling) the difference boils down to:

    damage (ranged, melee, AOOs) is 1d6+1 vs. 1d3 base die damage
    +10 ft move difference

    vs.

    +2 to trip and disarm

    That's not that much at level 10.

    Liberty's Edge

    Kirth Gersen wrote:
    It's more of a freebie than a benefit, but it's your simulation, so have at it.

    Tell that to the non-martial classes.

    Liberty's Edge

    LoneKnave wrote:
    ciretose wrote:
    LoneKnave wrote:

    Drawing a new spear is an equal action to reloading a sling.

    In fact, you can draw it for free with quickdraw.

    If you have extra spears of equal quality to the sling.

    Why not? They don't cost a lot (light spear=1gp), and you don't need masterwork spears for throwing. It also does d6 vs the sling's d4, can be used for AoOs, and is also a simple weapon.

    In fact, most throwing weapons (even simple ones) seem to out-perform the sling, which is saying something. All the sling has going forit is a bit better range.

    You don't use magic weapons in your game?

    Liberty's Edge

    Kobold Cleaver wrote:
    Well, I made a halfling slinger vs. human archer at fifth level. At that point, the slinger has finally begun to catch up (though he'll fall way behind again at sixth level). A human slinger deals about the same damage at that level, except he gets one less feat to spend thanks to having to buy Ammo Drop.

    But again, it is a fighter (and ranger) class feature to even be able to have the pre-requisites use a longbow in Melee.


    Of course anything is perfectly fine if we house rule it. But needing to shows there's a problem in the first place, not that the rule was all well and good. I could houserule repeating crossbows to be the simple weapons that they are [even though that's adding realism to a game *cough*] but that wouldn't mean they aren't still crud in actual Pathfinder.

    The sling provokes an AoO on loading, and like it or not manyshot is no 'extra' feat; the slinger's using his to get the sling working too. It's just a far BETTER feat in terms of output than what the slinger gets. Not extra, just yet-another edge.

    So the differences really do come down to what you'd listed previously, with the difference in the number of attacks greatly increasing as we level if not a halfling.

    Which isn't close at all.


    ciretose wrote:
    You don't use magic weapons in your game?

    Any level you have access to magic weapons the sling is outperformed by everything else. The only level the sling may have some point in existing is lvl1, when you can't buy composite bows yet.

    Dark Archive

    Side by side builds are notoriously silly, but why not? Let's also play to the sling's 'advantage' that it can be used in melee with a feat. Naturally to combat that, the longbow user will have to make use of a cestus.

    Halfling fighter stats:
    Str 12, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 10

    Halfling fighter 1 with sling:
    Alternate Racial Traits: Warslinger
    Feats: Sling Flail, Weapon Focus (sling)
    Melee sling +3 (1d3+1)
    Ranged sling +6 (1d3+1)

    Halfling fighter 1 with longbow:
    Alternate Racial Traits: Fleet of Foot
    Feats: Point-Blank Shot, Weapon Focus (longbow)
    Melee cestus +3 (1d3+1/19-20)
    Ranged longbow +6 (1d6/x3); +1 to attacks and damage within 30 ft.

    At first level, there is actually some remarkable balance here. Longbow has slightly higher damage, but not enough to write home about. Both function fine in melee combat, although the longbowman is out 80 gp for his longbow and cestus combo. The longbow halfling can of course take advantage of Fleet of Foot for a 30 ft. move speed. This is, unfortunately, the best level for the slinger.

    Moving on:

    Halfling fighter 2 with sling:
    Alternate Racial Traits: Warslinger
    Feats: Point-Blank Shot, Sling Flail, Weapon Focus (sling)
    Melee mwk sling +5 (1d3+1)
    Ranged mwk sling +8 (1d3+1); +1 to attacks and damage within 30 ft.

    Halfling fighter 2 with longbow:
    Alternate Racial Traits: Fleet of Foot
    Feats: Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus (longbow)
    Melee mwk cestus +5 (1d3+1/19-20)
    Ranged mwk composite longbow +8 (1d6+1/x3); +1 to attacks and damage within 30 ft.

    At second level things are steadily pulling away from the slinger. Having to spend two feats to pull off that trick means he doesn't have Precise Shot yet; meanwhile, the longbowman can grab a composite bow to negate the sling's prime advantage; the cost: 200 gp.

    Next:

    Halfling fighter 3 with sling:
    Alternate Racial Traits: Warslinger
    Feats: Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Sling Flail, Weapon Focus (sling)
    Melee +1 sling +6 (1d3+2)
    Ranged +1 sling +9 (1d3+2); +1 to attacks and damage within 30 ft.

    Halfling fighter 3 with longbow:
    Alternate Racial Traits: Fleet of Foot
    Feats: Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus (longbow)
    Melee mwk cestus +6 (1d3+1/19-20)
    Ranged +1 composite longbow +9 or +7/+7 (1d6+2/x3); +1 to attacks and damage within 30 ft.

    Yay, the slinger has Precise Shot! On the other hand, the longbowman has Rapid Shot, so advantage goes to the longbowman. Costs are too high for the longbowman to have a +1 cestus, so I guess melee advantage to the slinger.

    Anyway, the slinger isn't doing too terribly at these low levels, so let's move on to level 8.

    Halfling fighter 8 with sling:
    Alternate Racial Traits: Warslinger
    Feats: Clustered Shots, Deadly Aim, Greater Weapon Focus (sling), Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Sling Flail, Weapon Focus (sling), Weapon Specialization (sling)
    Melee +2 sling +13/+8 (1d3+4)
    Ranged +2 sling +19/+14 or +17/+17/+12 (1d3+7); Deadly Aim +16/+11 or +14/+14/+9 (1d3+13)

    Gear Used: (31,805 gp)
    10,000 belt of physical might (Str/Dex) +2
    8,300 +2 sling
    4,350 +2 breastplate
    4,000 cloak of resistance +2
    1,155 +1 buckler
    2,000 ring of protection +1
    2,000 amulet of natural armour +1

    Halfling fighter 8 with longbow:
    Alternate Racial Traits: Fleet of Foot
    Feats: Clustered Shots, Deadly Aim, Greater Weapon Focus (longbow), Manyshot, Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus (longbow), Weapon Specialization (longbow)
    Melee +1 cestus +12/+7 (1d3+3/19-20)
    Ranged +2 adaptive composite longbow +19(x2)/+14 or +17(x2)/+17/+12 (1d6+7/x3); Deadly Aim +16/+11 or +14(x2)/+14/+9 (1d6+13/x3)

    Gear Used: (32,310 gp)
    10,000 belt of physical might (Str/Dex) +2
    9,500 +2 adaptive composite longbow
    2,305 +1 cestus
    1,350 +1 breastplate
    4,000 cloak of resistance +2
    1,155 +1 buckler
    2,000 ring of protection +1
    2,000 amulet of natural armour +1

    The longbowman is unequivocally ahead at this point. Manyshot blows anything the sling can do out of the water, and for a cool 1000 gp he never has to worry about the sling's so-called 'advantage'. Unfortunately, the slinger's melee is never going to be too relevant, due to the fact that none of the Weapon Focus feats that are attached to the sling function for its melee purposes; in fact, the only thing the slinger gets from that feat is being able to use his sling's enhancement bonus for melee. While the slinger is doing effective damage, he just has to look at his brother the longbowman to think about how much easier it could have been.

    In conclusion: With extra feats invested to make the sling relevant, it still doesn't measure up in its defined role. If I were to show you a human slinger, he would have spent two extra feats just to pull off reloading as a free action, and he would still do less damage. If I were to show you a sling staff user, you would laugh.


    ciretose wrote:
    Kirth Gersen wrote:
    Yeah, I'd like to see a human slinger vs. human archer, so that "only halflings can use slings" isn't a de facto part of the scenario.

    I'm also going to add in a non-martial class option, likely a rogue or inquisitor.

    As martial weapon proficiency is a benefit, after all.

    Edit: Meaning I'm going to post three different builds.

    You do realize both rogues and inquisitors are proficient with bows right? Rogues just miss out on the longbow.

    Out of the classes that would potentially go for ranged weapon attacks other than as a really really last resort at the first two levels, these are proficient with bows:
    Ranger, Fighter, Paladin, Barbarian, Cavalier, Rogue, Inquisitor, Bard, certain Clerics and Monks. Also any elf.
    These are not:
    Certain clerics and monks, summoners, gunslingers (but gunslingers have their own schtick)

    So no, bow proficiency is not equal to a full feat investment.

    Liberty's Edge

    LoneKnave wrote:
    ciretose wrote:
    You don't use magic weapons in your game?
    Any level you have access to magic weapons the sling is outperformed by everything else. The only level the sling may have some point in existing is lvl1, when you can't buy composite bows yet.

    You were talking about spears. Put the goal posts back.

    Liberty's Edge

    Ilja wrote:


    You do realize both rogues and inquisitors are proficient with bows right? Rogues just miss out on the longbow.

    Out of the classes that would potentially go for ranged weapon attacks other than as a really really last resort at the first two levels, these are proficient with bows:
    Ranger, Fighter, Paladin, Barbarian, Cavalier, Rogue, Inquisitor, Bard, certain Clerics and Monks. Also any elf.
    These are not:
    Certain clerics and monks, summoners, gunslingers (but gunslingers have their own schtick)

    So no, bow proficiency is not equal to a full feat investment.

    The longbow is what we were discussing. I forgot Inquisitors get longbow.

    Bard is shortbow, Druid, Oracles and Alchemist are no bow. Same with the full Arcane casters.

    Like I said, I'll post 3 tonight. Look forward to others doing the same to set the bar.

    701 to 750 of 1,399 << first < prev | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | next > last >>
    Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / General Discussion / What is the DEAL with slings? All Messageboards