Player wants to play a doppleganger

[Mavrickindigo]

I have a player who wants to play a doppleganger character. Now apparently there's a rule that says you can play monsters as their CR = Class level?

He found/made a Doppleganger with the race builder

monsterous humanoid 3
advanced 4
4 str -2 con int 2 wis 2 cha 2
nat armor 4 5
change shape greater 6
detect thoughts at will 4
skill bonus bluff +2 2
skill bonus disguise 2 2
race points 26

now he really wants to play the "CR as Class Level", but I'd rather go with the Race builder, but he says its broken. We're level 5, so I don't think a 26-point creature among more normal characters wouldn't matter quite as much.

We're running "Skull & Shackls" and are in "Raiders of the Fever Sea" btw.

[RJGrady]

The costs in the race builder can be a bit wonky, but the resulting writeup is going to be a lot more playable than something with monstrous HD. Anyway, why doesn't he just play a changeling, or maybe a rogue with disguise self as a SLA?

[Whale_Cancer]

Honestly, a doppelganger just seems like a disruptive concept.

[Mavrickindigo]

Changelings don't have shape-shifting do they? at least Golarion Changelings don't.

I suggested Eberron changlings, but he said he wanted to be the real deal.

[Lemmy]

He could use the Changeling race from D&D 3.5. Give it a +2 to any stat (like Humans) and it should be well balanced with other races...

I think it would be much easier...

[Drejk]

As a monstrous humanoid doppelganger has high BAB, d10 HD and two good saves. It has 4 dice which means it shouldn't be treated as anything less than 4th level character... Possibly 5th level, as its higher than average ability scores and abilities (alter self, detect thoughts and racial skill bonuses) make up for lack of class abilities.

[Snorter]

Don't forget the ability to autopass UMD checks.

[Sowde Da'aro]

i have also wanted to play a doppelganger fighter, (real deal not a changeling) but i never got the chance (yet!)
the concept was a doppelganger fighter that dresses like a wizard (glamed armor) and a 1/2 dragon warmage (3.5) friend that dresses like a fighter with a great sword.

[Zhayne]

Character level=CR is wrong, wrong, WRONG and has NEVER been right.

Using the 3.5 rules for this kind of character, Effective Character Level=Hit Dice + Level Adjustment. Doppelgangers have 4 HD, and a +4 Level adjustment, meaning a doppelganger with no class levels counts as a Level 8 character.

[Mikaze]

You might want to check out the Skindancer race in Wayfinder #7.(it's free here at Paizo)

It's balanced as a standard 0-HD race, all set and ready to go. Comes with real shape shifting that has its own particular limitations.

Plus the player might prefer their look and dig the idea of having toxic flesh. If so, less of a headache for the GM as far as balancing goes. :)

[Daniel Turner Zen Archer]

Mavrickindigo wrote:

I have a player who wants to play a doppleganger character. Now apparently there's a rule that says you can play monsters as their CR = Class level?

He found/made a Doppleganger with the race builder

monsterous humanoid 3
advanced 4
4 str -2 con int 2 wis 2 cha 2
nat armor 4 5
change shape greater 6
detect thoughts at will 4
skill bonus bluff +2 2
skill bonus disguise 2 2
race points 26

now he really wants to play the "CR as Class Level", but I'd rather go with the Race builder, but he says its broken. We're level 5, so I don't think a 26-point creature among more normal characters wouldn't matter quite as much.

We're running "Skull & Shackls" and are in "Raiders of the Fever Sea" btw.

Here is the 3.5 listing for playing a Doppelganger as a Character, and I'd be careful with letting a player play one unless you're prepared for it, especially if said player takes rogue/ninja levels.

[Pupsocket]

Whale_Cancer wrote:

Honestly, a doppelganger just seems like a disruptive concept.

Nah. Their main trick is easily duplicated by regular PCs, the doppelganger can just do it contantly instead of occasionally.

Zhayne wrote:

Character level=CR is wrong, wrong, WRONG and has NEVER been right.

Using the 3.5 rules for this kind of character, Effective Character Level=Hit Dice + Level Adjustment. Doppelgangers have 4 HD, and a +4 Level adjustment, meaning a doppelganger with no class levels counts as a Level 8 character.

However, double-charging with level adjustment AND HD is even more wrong. You're seriously suggesting that a doppelganger with no class levels is about equal to a caster with 4th level spells, a barbarian with 4 times the HP and 8 times the damage output, or a rogue with 4 attacks and sneak attack +4d6 (and disguise +22).

[Pupsocket]

If you're the GM and you say no to the Betiary/CR solution, that's that.

[Mekkis]

Character level = CR might be wrong, but it's a hell of a lot better than the way 3.5e did it.

There is no way the "monster HD = class levels" is balanced in and of itself. Adding LA (dead levels) makes it worse.

[Kittenological]

CR for Character Level works for a few monsters but there are some (namely true dragons) that just doesn't. Doppelganger though, probably won't be too much of a problem imo. That is, provided that the players themselves and the PCs storywise are open to the idea of having one in their team.

[npaulagain]

When it comes to playing something a little unique, I think you may be best to stick somewhat within the realm of the ARG. One way I have done things slightly different is to have X number of RP beyond the first tier count as 1 level. What X is, is up for you - and too a lesser extent the player - to decide. If you work with him on the race, as a check of sorts to make sure it isn't just 'stick things in to make the race strong' and it sticks within the feel of the race it should be fine. If you're willing to have a doppelganger in your campaign.

An example of this would be a port over of a kroxigar from Warhammer I did. It was large, scaly lizard beastie. Not the brightest, but physically imposing and large. To give it the things that the creature should have it ended around 37 or so points. So I discussed it with the DM, and instead of having a class level at level 1, I simply had my race along with the HD, BAB, skills, and the like of the race type. Essentially taking a level in that race. That way you don't need to worry about CR as much. Of course, I had also modified some of the race point things. For instance, taking advanced ability scores but not using the +4. This kept it relatively in line with any PC class level + a basic race. When it came to wealth we didn't give it any, but instead had it have a couple of items that made sense. A greater trebujte(SP), and hide armor. This made it somewhat lower than a PC perhaps, but it was what I wanted to play so I was willing to lose some power to do so.

So, in the instance of your player, figure out how many 'levels' of it is worth, and have it take up that many - giving HD and what not as if its creature type was a normal class. Like an animal type would only get 1HD at first level as opposed to the two.

Sorry this got longer than I expected it too but I got a little rant-y.

Speaking for myself, if I come to a DM with a race idea it is because I have a specific thematic idea that I want to play out. I don't care if it is underpowered and am willing to take negatives in order to play the theme I want. I also tend to be a story over power player when possible. If the player seems to want to be X because of the powers of X and all the 'broken' things he can do, I would be more worried than a person who comes to me and says, "I want to be X because I have this idea for a character: (Insert backstory, personality and the like. Not abilities and powers)

[Zhayne]

Pupsocket wrote:

Whale_Cancer wrote:

Honestly, a doppelganger just seems like a disruptive concept.

Nah. Their main trick is easily duplicated by regular PCs, the doppelganger can just do it contantly instead of occasionally.

Zhayne wrote:

Character level=CR is wrong, wrong, WRONG and has NEVER been right.

Using the 3.5 rules for this kind of character, Effective Character Level=Hit Dice + Level Adjustment. Doppelgangers have 4 HD, and a +4 Level adjustment, meaning a doppelganger with no class levels counts as a Level 8 character.

However, double-charging with level adjustment AND HD is even more wrong. You're seriously suggesting that a doppelganger with no class levels is about equal to a caster with 4th level spells, a barbarian with 4 times the HP and 8 times the damage output, or a rogue with 4 attacks and sneak attack +4d6 (and disguise +22).

I was just quoting the rules. Off my back, por favor.