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Ok, let's see if I can clarify this entire topic for everyone and hit on all the relevant points.
A player must have a physical copy of the Additional Resource in question, a name-watermarked Paizo PDF of the book, or a printout of the relevant pages from a name-watermarked PDF, as well as provide access electronically or a physical copy of the current version of the Additional Resources list, as advised in the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play.
A print out is not a photocopy. It is exactly what it advises. It is a print out from a watermarked PDF that, when printed, shows the name of the person (and their email) on the top or bottom of the page. A photocopy of a physical book that does not show a watermark does not fulfill the requirement. This includes a photocopy of a book you borrowed from a friend, checked out of a library, or any other copy you obtained and photocopied or scanned pages from.
Mike
I carry my tablet with my watermarked pdf's on it. I have never had a problem with this method as
1) I can prove it's mine
2) I can provide the exact wording of any feat, spell ect... upon requestAccording to the letter of your acceptable methods I could be deemed illegal because nothing is printed
Please clarify that if showing the pdf and proving the water mark matches the player is sufficient
Thanks
Rich
He does answer your question...below is the quote, with me putting bold that answers your question...
A player must have a physical copy of the Additional Resource in question, a name-watermarked Paizo PDF of the book, or a printout of the relevant pages from a name-watermarked PDF, as well as provide access electronically or a physical copy of the current version of the Additional Resources list, as advised in the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized Play.
You must have the water mark PDF *OR* a printout of the relevant pages of the same. :) I have plenty of players just bring PDF on iPad, and it's perfectly fine as long as they can zip over and show me the element I ask about.
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That being said...I have no idea what a good solution would be
What if when you purchase or select the item/feat/spell etc. in question, you have your GM sign off on the Chronicle sheet for "proof of source." From then on, you just bring a photocopy along with your chronicle sheets?
Take a picture of your book with you and today's newspaper.
Get the photocopy notarized.
Include a copy of your receipt.
Set up a webcam pointed at your bookshelf.
Hire a porter (5PP).
Sign an affidavit.
Muleback cords (1000gp).
Cut out the barcode (with ISBN #) and paste it inside a tiny scrapbook.
I'm just spitballing here.
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I understand that if someone sits down to a table and they're using a feat or a piece of equipment from a book they don't own, they should just switch that feat out or get their gold back for that piece of equipment. That makes total sense to me. But I apparently have customers (and I'm using the term loosely here) who don't own a single Pathfinder book, and I'm not sure what to do about them.
Can someone who's using ten different books he doesn't own for a character effectively rebuild nearly every aspect of his character to be core only? Or does he have to make a choice between buying the books and losing his character? What am I supposed to do about this?
Alright...you're not going to like what I have to say...because a lot of it is not peaches & creme, as we say in the south.
If a players has a feat, illegal item, etc...technically, he would need to follow the normal rules for retraining that feat (coming up in the new PFS guide, which WILL cost something, I'm sure)...if it's an item, he would need to sell it and buy something out, losing out on gold or whatever. If you decided to handwave those costs because of a misunderstanding or whatnot, I understand. It's not normally allowed, but I might do the same thing in your case. Mistakes happen, and we don't want to bash people upside the head with a nurf stick for complete mistakes.
However, If a player has 7th level character using 10 different books he doesn't own, and doesn't have access to in the games he plays with him (from a spouse, close bud, whatever), he's essentially been breaking the rules of the organized campaign for some time. This is a little harder to handwave. You'd have to rebuild the character from scratch, which is clearly not allowed by the rules of the campaign.
The additional requirement rules are clearly spelled out in the Guide to Organized Play. Of course, I understand not everyone reads them well (or reads them at all), which is why my VL and I do everything we can to educate players on these types of things...to avoid this scenario! No one likes being surprised by the fact that their 7th level character is essentially illegal for play!
But, ultimately, if this type of scenario does come up, then, yes, I would tell the player that they could not play their character until they obtained the books to make it right. And, I would try to work with them (Allow them to play character for a month or so until he can afford the books, or I've even bought PDFs for players before at one point). But, if, ultimately, someone DOES end up shelving that character, I would remind you and myself, The rules are clearly spelled out. For the player to get cranky at you or I in enforcing those rules is as unreasonable as the person who gets upset at an officer for giving them a ticket, or the referee who throws out a football player for breaking the rules. Ignorance ultimately is not an acceptable defense. And if they're going to get upset, take their legos and go somewhere else because I'm asking them to follow the campaign rules they agreed to when they sat at my table...well...it happens.
However, it is an issue and we'll continue to work hard to insure in our areas that the ignorance aspect is kept to a minimum.
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They will need to purchase the book or PDF, or utilize the retraining rules in Guide 5.0.
Haven't seen the guide yet, so I don't know if you would, but it would be delightfully ironic if they needed a copy of Ultimate Campaign to retrain away all the stuff they don't own.
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Humm...a proof of purchase source sheet might not be a bad idea there redward. Have a sheet with all the books on it and have a GM sign off any physical book that you have and you don't wanna carry. After that any old photo copy should be fine for reference right?
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That being said...I have no idea what a good solution would be
When new players come to my table, I ask them to not look at the online SRD, herolabs, etc. I pull out the core rule book and ask them to make a character with just that. If they happen to own a few of the other books, I tell them to go ahead and use those to. If they only build by looking in the core and other books they own, they can build awesome, awesome characters.
If you're limited not by what you own, but by what you are willing to carry, I would recommend the same thing to you. If you take those books you are willing to carry, you will be in a much easier place than if you build with everything you own, then figure out you don't want to carry it all.
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I see a few posts about supporting local game stores, Paizo/PFS selling strategy not lining up with what works best for FLGS, etc. I can tell you that it's been that way for some time, and the core issues that affect that relationship the most goes beyond PFS and to Paizo's strategy as a whole. There's some very interesting posts about it from Paizo staff if you dig deep enough. Long story short, though, this direction that Mike has laid out here (which has really been the rule for a while now), isn't affecting that relationship nearly as much as some of you might thing...not when compared to decisions such as the 'free PDF with subscription' deals and the such.
Long story short, we'll never buy as much as the Magic guys do, and probably don't even do our part to help pay for the bills given the space we take. I think some of you addressed this well when you state up above that you buy something from the store each time. I know what I like to do a lot is we charge an entrance fee sometimes...(especially on larger events). It's usually $3/player/slot. We then buy products in the store, or gift certificates, and raffle them off. It's a great way to support the store, and everyone loves a good raffle :) Outside of that, as GM, I always encourage players to buy the books and accessories from the store whenever I'm in it. Just seems to be the polite thing to do.
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When new players come to my table, I ask them to not look at the online SRD, herolabs, etc. I pull out the core rule book and ask them to make a character with just that. If they happen to own a few of the other books, I tell them to go ahead and use those to. If they only build by looking in the core and other books they own, they can build awesome, awesome characters.
If you're limited not by what you own, but by what you are willing to carry, I would recommend the same thing to you. If you take those books you are willing to carry, you will be in a much easier place than if you build with everything you own, then figure out you don't want to carry it all.
But we aren't talking about NEW players tho. We are talking about established players with a library of hundreds of dollars. To say that you can't use what you paid for as the official stance just does not sit well with me. Yes, that is the official rule...that does not mean we can't have a discussion about if there isn't a better way to do it NOW...6 years after said rule was written. Rules can change. The campaign heads change the rules ALL the time. Redward's GM signs off seems like a great idea to me and at the least warrants further discussion no? You don't even need fancy sheets. You can have a GM just sign, date and PFS number the photocopy after they vouch for the real book.
Regional Venture-Coordinator, Gulf
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I have a hero lab starter character, only using Core. A new player can go nuts using only core and free downloads to make a character. I explain you have to buy the book on additional resources to get the zirconium encrusted tweezers of dental floss plucking. The online PFSRD is great as a book shopping guide, but you have to buy. It starts from there.
When I walk into my FLGS I buy something. I buy a miniature, a pack of cards, a goblin booster, or whatever tickles my fancy. As long as I stay away from the WH40k aisle, my wife supports that. We are filthy with miniatures. We don't need more, but we buy to support pathfinder at the store. No store will have every book, if you really want it at the FLGS, special order a copy.
It is a little sad people are claiming hardship, because the company that administers a open, free to play, campaign would like you to buy the books for the rules. They are not asking you to buy a license, that you can't resell, or even buy from them direct. You can even buy used copies to meet the requirement. People forget, brand W required you to buy the books too, and would not sell PDF copies.
A tablet at Walmart has broken $100. There is a reasonable way to carry every blessed PDF you can own. If you like features buy a better tablet or a cheap laptop. Most of you have a smartphone. PDFs can go there too, and for those with better eyes its an option. It also makes it trivial to pull up the additional resources list, with near universal wifi.
There are ways to do this. Supporting Paizo means spending a little money there. The core book and all others are really cheap as PDF copies. If you like paper, buy your favorites as paper. The things we get are not free, they have to be paid for by someone.
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It is a little sad people are claiming hardship, because the company that administers a open, free to play, campaign would like you to buy the books for the rules. They are not asking you to buy a license, that you can't resell, or even buy from them direct. You can even buy used copies to meet the requirement. People forget, brand W required you to buy the books too, and would not sell PDF copies.
PFS isn't free to play. The scenarios cost money. Someone has to pay Paizo in order for you to play.
Used copies and PDFs don't make the game store hosting the event stay open.
So a store in a downtown metropolitan area where the players tend to use public transit, bikes, walking, and even skateboards to get there is hurt even more because they need to spend money to host the event and the ease of use of the PDFs for those players prevents book sales.
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A number of people are complaining about a lack of a 'photocopy of an owned, physical book' option to reduce weight without them having to additionally buy a PDF copy.
Would signing the page of the book in pen together with PFS number before making the photocopy be sufficient?
You can have a GM just sign, date and PFS number the photocopy after they vouch for the real book.
I'd personally like to see an official paizo product for PFS that you could purchase which would automatically include the sources you have and text from paizo based on those text.
I like David's suggestion better, as it would allow a bit more control in Paizo's hands. The biggest problem that I can see with it, is the one that we have will all of the watermarked PDFs - how do you know if the player showing you the PDFs is "RaZoRsKaTor@gmail.com"
Cold Napalm, while I like your idea, and can see it working well in an area that you play a lot in (as in the GMs will recognize each other's signatures), but I can see it having difficulties - did a GM actually sign it? How does the GM record it (I wouldn't remember if someone else asked me if I had signed a page for John Smith (I would more likely remember the name of their most memorable character if I remembered them at all - especially if they are not a regular player in my area).
Edit: to fix a quote bracket
You can have a GM just sign, date and PFS number the photocopy after they vouch for the real book.I'd personally like to see an official paizo product for PFS that you could purchase which would automatically include the sources you have and text from paizo based on those text.I like David's suggestion better, as it would allow a bit more control in Paizo's hands. The biggest problem that I can see with it, is the one that we have will all of the watermarked PDFs - how do you know if the player showing you the PDFs is "RaZoRsKaTor@gmail.com"
Cold Napalm, while I like your idea, and can see it working well in an area that you play a lot in (as in the GMs will recognize each other's signatures), but I can see it having difficulties - did a GM actually sign it? How does the GM record it (I wouldn't remember if someone else asked me if I had signed a page for John Smith (I would more likely remember the name of their most memorable character if I remembered them at all - especially if they are not a regular player in my area).
Edit: to fix a quote bracket
Cheaters gonna cheat.
There is no panacea cure that's going to solve the issue of cheaters.Folks can already DL scenarios and fill out their own chronicles, sign a random person's name to it and have a character at whatever level they want.
Whats to stop it?
Honesty. Integrity.
I (personally) think that having a DM sign a "what books have I proven to own" is probably the only way to do it that doesn't involve some sort of Paizo officiated electronic tracking. (which they can't do because they have no way to "know" what you did or didn't buy from your FLGS).
A triple column check box style sheet updated by Paizo every month that you could save, download, and have a DM sign off on when yuo got a new book is probably the only method that encompasses real books, PDF's, and the like.
(check books you have, cross through books you don't, sign it at the end with the date.. redo it everytime you get a new book- or everytime you need to include a new book for an item/feat or whatever) then a normal photocopy of that page would be legit.
Its the only happy medium I can see actually working to address all of the issues at hand.
Can it be faked? Yes. But faking something isn't terribly difficult even under the current rules. Cheaters gonna cheat.
-S
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7th Level Goblin Barbarian (Feral Gnasher)
Books:
Core Rulebook*
Advanced Player's Guide
Advanced Race Guide
Faction Guide
Goblins of Golarion
Taldor, Echoes of Glory
Ultimate Combat**
Ultimate EquipmentTotal hard-copy cost: $207 ($176 with AP subscription)
Total PDF cost: $70
Total Weight 11.5 lbs.*CRB costs and weight are not figured in as it is not required to own a copy of the CRB to play PFS.
**Ultimate Combat is included even though I don't plan on using anything from this book until 9th level.Also keep in mind that the cost is spread across 10 characters for me.
So Kyle, out of my own curiosity would you kindly consider calculating for me the price of hardbacks plus weight for the following articles I would need to have at hard in order to have my full entourage of characters available at a given time? I will not re-list books already listed for the other characters.
My monk requires:
core rule book
blood of angels (garuda-blooded aasimar variant)
advanced player's guide (variant racial traits)
ultimate magic (qinggong archetype)
ultimate combat (various feats)
dragon empires primer (quain martial artist trait)
cheliax book (threatening defender trait)
sargava, the lost colony (piranha strike feat)
chronicles of the righteous (celestial obedience feat)
seekers of secrets (ioun stones and resonance)
pathfinder society field guide (agile enchantment and vanities)
ultimate equipment (numerous items)
My wizard additionally requires:
paths of prestige (prestige class)
inner sea world guide (scholar feat)
faiths of purity (lessons of chaldira trait)
champions of purity (spells)
rise of the runelords anniversary addition (spells)
inner sea magic (spells)
people of the north (spells)
andoran, spirit of libery (spells)
My magus additionally requires:
blood of fiends (armor of the pit feat)
What does all that work out to be? This is what I will be carrying around to keep my characters table ready as I own only 2 non-scenerio PDF resources.
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This is a great post. It touches on what's happening in our world today. Five years ago when Paizo decided to stick with 3.5 and publish it's own CRB, portable pdf readers were rare and cumbersome. Today, they're much more capable and ubiquitous. Both our FLGS and Paizo have to adapt to this.
I get it. We want to play this game. We want our ability to play this game to be as barrier free as possible. But we also have to remember that we need to support both our FLGS and Paizo.
The unfortunate truth we have to deal with is that a photocopy of a book's page can come from anywhere and from anyone's book. In order for this game to survive we need people to purchase their own copies of the products they use. For PFS, this means when you go some where to play, you need to be able to prove that you or your family are paying customers. If you don't want to have that burden of proof, play something that doesn't require it.
I understand what you are saying. And honestly, I can't fault Paizo taking this position as well. They have to protect their company, and it has become entirely too easy to pirate digital material these days.
But that said, as a customer who's purchased and been given hardback copies that have been legitimately purchased, it's extremely disheartening to realize that I now may have to consider re-purchasing everything I have already bought if I wish to continue playing PFS in the manner I enjoy gaming.
Tied to this is a feeling of being treated as "guilty of piracy until proven otherwise by PDF" as well, and that frustrates me almost as much.
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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PFS isn't free to play. The scenarios cost money. Someone has to pay Paizo in order for you to play.
PFS is free a lot of the time. I give a ton of free PDFs away to stores and conventions. I believe we've given away somewhere in the neighborhood of 5000 free scenarios this year and there are still 5 months remaining.
And, if a group pays for a scenario, and divides the cost by 6, it totals $0.67 per player with the GM getting a pass since he is GMing. Are people really going to start debating the merits of spending $0.67 for 5 hours of gaming? That averages to $0.13 an hour per player.
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But we aren't talking about NEW players tho. We are talking about established players with a library of hundreds of dollars. To say that you can't use what you paid for as the official stance just does not sit well with me. Yes, that is the official rule...that does not mean we can't have a discussion about if there isn't a better way to do it NOW...6 years after said rule was written. Rules can change. The campaign heads change the rules ALL the time. Redward's GM signs off seems like a great idea to me and at the least warrants further discussion no? You don't even need fancy sheets. You can have a GM just sign, date and PFS number the photocopy after they vouch for the real book.
Sure. We can have a discussion. Having played this for some time now, I've given this a lot of thought. Paizo doesn't want people using illegal copies at their official, organized game events. Understandable. One cannot validate a photocopy as legal because it has no water mark. It's really that simple. And because its simple, I'm not sure where a lot of wiggle room exists.
However, I wonder if Mike has not done what you guys are asking for.
A screenshot of your downloads page, coupled with links to the appropriate PRD pages would cover both purposes if you choose to utilize such a method.
Does that not mean that you could basically do what all of you are asking for? You could just print out all of the relevant pages from PRD along with the screenshot, which fulfills the requirement of printing from a legal source AND showing ownership without having to re buy everything as a PDF? Hmmmm!
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PFS isn't free to play. The scenarios cost money. Someone has to pay Paizo in order for you to play.
Not all the time. I give a ton of free PDFs away to stores and conventions. I believe we've given away somewhere in the neighborhood of 5000 free scenarios this year and there are still 5 months remaining.
And, if a group pays for a scenario, and divides the cost by 6, it totals $0.67 per player with the GM getting a pass since he is GMing. Are people really going to start debating the merits of spending $0.67 for 5 hours of gaming? That averages to $0.13 an hour per player.
Unfortunately, they do. I've had so many people tell me to my face that their players simply cannot afford a buck/week or whatnot. Then, we wonder why some store owners aren't open to the idea of reserving regular tables for PF players. We have a terrible reputation for being incredibly cheap, at least here in Utah. While, two tables over, the Warhammer and Magic Guys drop $10-$50 each every time they walk into the store, lolz!
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Not all the time. I give a ton of free PDFs away to stores and conventions. I believe we've given away somewhere in the neighborhood of 5000 free scenarios this year and there are still 5 months remaining.
And, if a group pays for a scenario, and divides the cost by 6, it totals $0.67 per player with the GM getting a pass since he is GMing. Are people really going to start debating the merits of spending $0.67 for 5 hours of gaming? That averages to $0.13 an hour per player.
The scenarios are extremely generously priced. I suppose if a GM was constantly footing the bill himself it may add up quickly depending on his rate of play. But that would not be a fault of the pricing, rather a fault of the stingy folks not willing to put in their fair share.
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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The scenarios are extremely generously priced. I suppose if a GM was constantly footing the bill himself it may add up quickly depending on his rate of play. But that would not be a fault of the pricing, rather a fault of the stingy folks not willing to put in their fair share.Not all the time. I give a ton of free PDFs away to stores and conventions. I believe we've given away somewhere in the neighborhood of 5000 free scenarios this year and there are still 5 months remaining.
And, if a group pays for a scenario, and divides the cost by 6, it totals $0.67 per player with the GM getting a pass since he is GMing. Are people really going to start debating the merits of spending $0.67 for 5 hours of gaming? That averages to $0.13 an hour per player.
Oh, I agree. If the GM purchased all 26 scenarios for Season 4, he spent $103.74 out of his pocket, provided he didn't receive any for free for GMing at a game day or convention.
However, if all 6 players chipped their $0.67 to play all 26 scenarios and take the burden off the GM, each player would have spent $17.29 for 11 months of gaming. That's $1.57 per month. I would even guess you may be able to collect that much just by picking up loose change found in parking lots. Yesterday alone, I found 17 pennies, and a nickel in four different parking lots we were at while out and about. If people are complaining about that cost point, I'm not really sure what to add at this point.
edit to add personal anecdote about finding change
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Tied to this is a feeling of being treated as "guilty of piracy until proven otherwise by PDF" as well, and that frustrates me almost as much.
I can relate. I love video games, but get incredibly frustrated at the heavy DRM used by some that pretty much do exactly what you describe. It can be bloody inconveniencing when I have to log in and stay online on a single player game. And its double frustrating when they cannot keep their servers up!
Personally, I don't look at is as someone being guilty until proven innocent or anything like that. I look at it like this....Pathfinder play is organized and official. As such, one cannot use house rules, and resources shown to GM must be official and meet their criteria (including being legal according to additional resources). One cannot walk into a typical Magic The Gathering tourney and use photocopies of cards or anything like that. Heck, half the time they cannot even use their own cards, they have to buy new ones just for that tourney, hahaha. Anywho, I know it's not apples to apples, but for PFS, ya generally have this same mentality that, yeah, you have to show your backup from official resources.
Pathfinder Society method of play does involve a fair amount more book carrying AND bookkeeping than your typical campaign. But, the payoff is huge. If followed properly, it allows people to play one character in PFS groups all over the world, and be relatively balanced to others.
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Oh, I agree. If the GM purchased all 26 scenarios for Season 4, he spent $103.74 out of his pocket, provided he didn't receive any for free for GMing at a game day or convention.
However, if all 6 players chipped their $0.67 to play all 26 scenarios and take the burden off the GM, each player would have spent $17.29 for 11 months of gaming. That's $1.57 per month. If people are complaining about that cost point, I'm not really sure what to add at this point.
Heh, yeah, there isn't much that could be said about that. My primary group was formerly 5 in number, but we added a 6th recently, and your math is now exactly our split cost per scenario (though we just take turns buying when a new one is needed).
We also run a lot of modules and adventure paths since, in some combination among us, we owned most of them prior to joining PFS.
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I can relate. I love video games, but get incredibly frustrated at the heavy DRM used by some that pretty much do exactly what you describe. It can be bloody inconveniencing when I have to log in and stay online on a single player game. And its double frustrating when they cannot keep their servers up!
Personally, I don't look at is as someone being guilty until proven innocent or anything like that. I look at it like this....Pathfinder play is organized and official. As such, one cannot use house rules, and resources shown to GM must be official and meet their criteria (including being legal according to additional resources). One cannot walk into a typical Magic The Gathering tourney and use photocopies of cards or anything like that. Heck, half the time they cannot even use their own cards, they have to buy new ones just for that tourney, hahaha. Anywho, I know it's not apples to apples, but for PFS, ya generally have this same mentality that, yeah, you have to show your backup from official resources.
Pathfinder Society method of play does involve a fair amount more book carrying AND bookkeeping than your typical campaign. But, the payoff is huge. If followed properly, it allows people to play one character in PFS groups all over the world, and be relatively balanced to others.
I hear that, brother. I remember when I first purchased the temple of elemental evil from atari several years ago. Perfectly legal copy, and I couldn't even play the game for almost 5 months after purchasing because the DRM was laid on so thick my computer swore it was illegal!
For me, it's like I said - I do not blame Paizo for choosing to take this position. But I also just can't afford to buy a new PDF for the some 20+ core book and splat hard and paperbacks I own. It's not like it will be a loss of money, because I love the game and setting, and will continue to play Pathfinder games for a long time to come.
But it does dishearten me greatly, because I really enjoy PFS, but I also have to be able to play the game in the way I enjoy playing it in order to have the fun I have (which for me personally, requires in-depth character building). If I am just going to a game day, taking a handful of books for the single character I know I'm playing is not a problem. But trying to travel to a convention carrying around the library I would now need just isn't realistic anymore. And having to carry these things around to prove you paid for them, when you know you paid for them, just stings.
All I can do at this point is show up with some physical book materials, and some photocopy materials. If a GM will accept it, awesome, let's play. If they won't, I'll nod, pack up, and go home.
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Well, if it makes you feel any better, the reality of the thing is that it probably will never come to that. From what I understand (and reinforced by my experience at PaizoCon), I'm one of the tougher GMs out there. And, I'm not even that mean. I basically spot check sheets (who has time to do a forensic audit?). I usually pick one or two 'topics' that I'm looking for each session. It may be double checking gold, or point buy...or feats and spells. Whatever that is, I look through those, and I'll ask about the ones I don't recognize (I don't generally ask about stuff I already know). This approach lends itself to mostly asking about non-core stuff. At that point, the players just have to show me their one or two things I ask for.
If, in asking about that one or two things, and/or checking their chronicle sheets for the one/two spells to see where they purchased them, it turns out they have NO backup for their character, I won't send them away, even then. I'll simply ask them to run a pre-gen. (If it's a FLGS setting, and that's a regular players, I may give them a pass for a week or two until they can secure and show me the resources).
If it's just one feat backup they are missing, item, etc, I'll give them the option of running that PC with the feat on suspension or playing a pregen. Occasionally, if they know exactly what book its from and they have the page number handy with additional resources, I'll look it up on my copy, if I have it, and make joke about remembering books and whatnot.
I think you'll find that most of us are totally willing to work with players. It is a co-operative experience after all, and as Mike said, we're not the police or anything.
Interestingly enough, we GMs have had this book carrying burden for some time. Save for those few with easy access to a copier, GMs generally have to carry about 5 or so books to run things smoothly...sometimes more. Add to that figures, mats, dice, markers, etc., and it looks like we're moving into an apartment. Some got this cute little carts. I, personally sprung for a tablet, and got on the subscription bandwagon early so I've always had important books as PDF that I can easily carry around. It was WELL worth the investment!
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So Kyle, out of my own curiosity would you kindly consider calculating for me the price of hardbacks plus weight for the following articles I would need to have at hard in order to have my full entourage of characters available at a given time?
It's pretty simple, I'll show you how.
- The CRB costs/weighs nothing as you don't need it at the PFS table.
- The costs of all those products can be found on right here Paizo.com.
- The weight of all those products can be estimated from Amazon.com.
A quick estimate has you at around 20 lbs.
1) Since the PF CRB was published it has always been that you needed either the book or a watermarked pdf /printout to use an additional resource.
2) You chose to make your characters using additional resources either A) knowing you are supposed to bring each resource with you but were hoping no one would call you out on it or B) you never read the PFSGtOP.
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Indeed. As a player, my game day experiences have been very relaxed. I've only had to produce an additional resource for GM clarification twice, both times it was a hardback photocopy, and was looked over for reference to make sure I was using it correctly and then we were golden.
At Cinci Con earlier this year, my home group had the awesome privilege of playing Race for the Runecarved Key with our (at the time) 15th level characters under VL Brent Bowser. Brent was a great GM, and was very knowledgeable, so had very few questions about our min-max shenanigans. That was our first PFS-specific convention, and left us with a great impression.
When I GM, I handle things much the same as you say. Prior to starting game, I will ask for the hp, AC, save bonuses, primary attack bonuses, and any other "unnaturally high" bonuses the PCs may have on a note card. If any of them catch me as peculiar, I will politely ask them to lay out their math for me. If they can explain, I likely will not even audit. If they cannot explain it, I will quickly audit.
As far as additional resources go, I have a strong system mastery, so rarely have to review anything other than extremely niche components. If I do need to ask how something functions, as long as they do not produce for me a watermarked PDF that clearly has someone else's name on it, I am personally satisfied with whatever medium is shown. Since I very rarely have to ask for these things though, I truly have no way of measuring if pirated material coming to game days and conventions are a major issue or not.
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It's pretty simple, I'll show you how.
- The CRB costs/weighs nothing as you don't need it at the PFS table.
- The costs of all those products can be found on right here Paizo.com.
- The weight of all those products can be estimated from Amazon.com.
A quick estimate has you at around 20 lbs.
1) Since the PF CRB was published it has always been that you needed either the book or a watermarked pdf /printout to use an additional resource.
2) You chose to make your characters using additional resources either A) knowing you are supposed to bring each resource with you but were hoping no one would call you out on it or B) you never read the PFSGtOP.
Oh, I apologize, I didn't realize amazon was a quick way to estimate weight. I didn't intend to be lazy.
I am fully aware of what was considered a legal resource at the time I began playing in PFS. I believe it is important to note that, around that time, photocopies were explicitly stated as legal by Mike in these forums. In the spirit of full disclosure and honesty, I am sure that you know that I was going to build my characters how I was going to build them anyhow, though. But I think it is important that you also understand that for several months now, there was a C) along with your A) and B).
I am now aware that legal status has been revoked. I am simply attempting to voice my frustration and hope that may be reconsidered in a constructive manner.
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What I did for Gen Con 2011 before I got my tablet last summer, was lug my giant box if books to my hotel room. I also new what I was GMing and playing each day, and with an hour between 2nd and 3rd slots, I could easily bring only what I needed. Yes it often was a heavy backpack. But easier than carrying my entire collection around.
I also remember Gen Con's and Origins from 2002 to 2004, where PDFs were not an option for Living whatever, and folks would have time of rolling carts and whatnot.
Where there is a will there is a way.
Just know you need your sources in some capacity is all.
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What I did for Gen Con 2011 before I got my tablet last summer, was lug my giant box if books to my hotel room. I also new what I was GMing and playing each day, and with an hour between 2nd and 3rd slots, I could easily bring only what I needed. Yes it often was a heavy backpack. But easier than carrying my entire collection around.
I also remember Gen Con's and Origins from 2002 to 2004, where PDFs were not an option for Living whatever, and folks would have time of rolling carts and whatnot.
Where there is a will there is a way.
Just know you need your sources in some capacity is all.
Be...before pdfs? There was such a time?
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I am not very computer saavy, so hopefully I link these directly to the posts correctly. But here are two, and if my memory serves there were others prior as well.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2oare?Copies-of-material
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p04e&page=5?Players-using-additional-resou rces-they-do#224
My group of friends began playing PFS in Oct 2012 - so this rule was in effect prior to us joining. And as I've said, I do not blame Paizo for this. Their concerns are valid. It is just somewhat frustrating after purchasing so much hard-copy material, and I just want to urge them to reconsider.
Those who love this game, and play PFS, will support this company by purchasing products. Those who love this game and pirate extensively will unfortunately continue to do so, and will not be impeded by this decision.
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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I am not very computer saavy, so hopefully I link these directly to the posts correctly. But here are two, and if my memory serves there were others prior as well.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2oare?Copies-of-material
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p04e&page=5?Players-using-additional-resou rces-they-do#224
Yeah, that's my fault for not being crystal clear. I meant copies of the printed, watermarked PDF, not a black and white copy machine print out of the book. Hence, why I never said Xeroxed photocopy in any of those. It's why I'm clarifying it now. It is a copy of the Watermarked PDF. My apologies for the confusion.
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And I salute you for that, and have nothing bad to say about you as person, gamer, or your beliefs on this matter.
I just like to travel as light as possible, and will greatly miss the freedom of one thick binder full of PCs, chronicle sheets, and photocopies and a small pouch of dice. Is it an earth shattering issue? No. But it is an inconvenient once, and one that frustrates me as an honest buyer.
You might laugh at me...I've been prize fighting for so long now and become so accustomed to striving to carry no extra weight that I don't even like having car keys in my pockets or shoes on my feet. My friends like to jones me about shedding my footwear and contents of my pockets the very second I enter a destination.
"You don't even need to to rob Paul, just wait for him to go to the bathroom, scoop up his stuff, and run!"
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I am not very computer saavy, so hopefully I link these directly to the posts correctly. But here are two, and if my memory serves there were others prior as well.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2oare?Copies-of-material
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p04e&page=5?Players-using-additional-resou rces-they-do#224
My group of friends began playing PFS in Oct 2012 - so this rule was in effect prior to us joining. And as I've said, I do not blame Paizo for this. Their concerns are valid. It is just somewhat frustrating after purchasing so much hard-copy material, and I just want to urge them to reconsider.
Those who love this game, and play PFS, will support this company by purchasing products. Those who love this game and pirate extensively will unfortunately continue to do so, and will not be impeded by this decision.
So I read those links. The first one is referring to a husband and wife at the same game day. The second link says nothing about photo copies. It only refers to hard copies and pdfs. Am I missing something? Hell Mike even says, "If you see someone using anything you think is suspicious (such as a unwatermarked PDF)..." What's the difference between a photocopy and an unwatermarked PDF?
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Yeah, that's my fault for not being crystal clear. I meant copies of the printed, watermarked PDF, not a black and white copy machine print out of the book. Hence, why I never said Xeroxed photocopy in any of those. It's why I'm clarifying it now. It is a copy of the Watermarked PDF. My apologies for the confusion.
No need for an apology or to shoulder any blame on my account, brother. Sometimes our meanings just don't get through our words like we intend - happens to the best of us, and you won't find any blame from me. I apologize for taking your words in a different meaning.
And as I've continued to say, I can't fault you guys for this position. I understand why the decision was made. It was just considerably more convenient for me to be able to carry 30 pages of photocopies instead of 20 books. And though I know logically it is not the intent, there is a still a sting of feeling treated like a pirate without a watermarked PDF.
Maybe we can consider a medium, like a digital proof of purchase "stamp" or something that could be made legal for PFS if proof of hardback ownership can be established? So you could show the page of ownership with photocopies, somewhat similar to download page plus prd?
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@Kyle Woops, that 2nd link was the wrong one. I will see if I can find the correct one. I know Paz has it, so maybe he will see this and help out my week internet skills :p.
As for the first post, I simply figured that if photocopy should be good for one, it should be good for another. Seems perfectly fair to me.
@Chris I'm not likely to change my present characters, but will take this clarification into account with future ones.
It's also not that big of a deal for game days - just load the books in the car, and go fetch one if needed. It's a giant turn off from cons, though.
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Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento
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What's the difference between a photocopy and an unwatermarked PDF?
Well, an unwatermarked pdf might be in electronic form.
Yeah, that's my fault for not being crystal clear. I meant copies of the printed, watermarked PDF, not a black and white copy machine print out of the book. Hence, why I never said Xeroxed photocopy in any of those. It's why I'm clarifying it now. It is a copy of the Watermarked PDF. My apologies for the confusion.
Michael, I don't think it is intentional, but you just made it more ambiguous again. Xerox is a specific machine, not a generic name for a process, and machine copies are quite commonly color as well as black and white. Your comment there just opened the area of "non-xeroxed, color, scan-and-print from a physical book"
I think what you meant to say is what you said before on the thread, that reproductions of pages out of a physical book are not accepted, only reproductions of pages from watermarked pdfs, or actual copies of physical books.
You know, if proof of purchase were the point, paizo could start including a removeable "proof of purchase" page to their books that you could attach to a copy of the pages that has the rules you need.
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Pathfinder Society Campaign Coordinator
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I think what you meant to say is what you said before on the thread, that reproductions of pages out of a physical book are not accepted, only reproductions of pages from watermarked pdfs, or actual copies of physical books.
Just semantics with Xeroxed used in my statement. i think people know what was meant.
But just in case, since we want absolutely no ambiguity whatsoever, what you wrote and i quoted sounds good. Lets go with that.
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Be...before pdfs? There was such a time?What I did for Gen Con 2011 before I got my tablet last summer, was lug my giant box if books to my hotel room. I also new what I was GMing and playing each day, and with an hour between 2nd and 3rd slots, I could easily bring only what I needed. Yes it often was a heavy backpack. But easier than carrying my entire collection around.
I also remember Gen Con's and Origins from 2002 to 2004, where PDFs were not an option for Living whatever, and folks would have time of rolling carts and whatnot.
Where there is a will there is a way.
Just know you need your sources in some capacity is all.
It was cold and dark in those days, nary a source of fire to be found but for the rare dry lightning strike...
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stuff
As has already been noted, Paizo doesn't ship directly to your store.
If you want the books, and your store doesn't have them, get them from another source.
If your store can't survive without your purchases, tell them to get a better distributor.
If you refuse to compromise any step of a process that doesn't directly involve Paizo, why blame them?
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*CRB costs and weight are not figured in as it is not required to own a copy of the CRB to play PFS.
It has been clarified that you must own the core assumption.
Doesn't Mike cover that with his ruling?
If it is a group of friends that always plays together at the same table, as long as there is at least one sourcebook that covers each rule for every character at the table, it fulfills the requirement
Edit: grammar
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Oh, I agree. If the GM purchased all 26 scenarios for Season 4, he spent $103.74 out of his pocket, provided he didn't receive any for free for GMing at a game day or convention.
However, if all 6 players chipped their $0.67 to play all 26 scenarios and take the burden off the GM, each player would have spent $17.29 for 11 months of gaming. That's $1.57 per month. I would even guess you may be able to collect that much just by picking up loose change found in parking lots. Yesterday alone, I found 17 pennies, and a nickel in four different parking lots we were at while out and about. If people are complaining about that cost point, I'm not really sure what to add at this point.
edit to add personal anecdote about finding change
I've spent $135.65 on Pathfinder Society scenarios since January 4th. That includes some I had to buy for some of my GM's for them to run games for me. I'm not a store owner, I'm just a volunteer who organizes at a store, and sometimes runs games at another store. I can't charge players to play, and in fact the few times I've brought tomato pie to the group I organize I don't think even one offered to chip in as a thank you. I also gift my GM's with $10 gift certificates at the end of the year as a thank you.
My point is that some people do have to pay to play, right now if I didn't it wouldn't be run where I co-ordinate.
Though I really didn't want to get into that, I just wish there was a way for store to make money (or more money) of PFS. The enforcement of the ownership rules will probably make Paizo more money on PDF's but for people who commute it's hard to justify lugging around hardback books.
I personally game at Mr. Roe's fine establishment and I co-ordinate at a store outside Philly as well, and I also take public transportation. In order to comply with the rules (which I do) I carry around 15 softcover Pathfinder rulebooks, and the CRB, UC, UE, UCam, Bestiary, UM, APG, and ARG (and all my owned scenarios) as pdfs on my tablet.
I buy as much as I can from the Compleat Strategist and Redcap's Corner but I don't have the money to justify buying books twice as a hardback and pdf (I did for the CRB, Bestiary and UC) and I can't carry all the hardback books.
It puts me, a guy who supports PFS as much as I can, in a bad position of not being able to support the stores and Paizo.
And that needs to be solved, we need some way to support PFS and gamestores at the same time, and a way to verify the ownership of hardback books bought at the store and not force people to carry them all the time when the PRD is available would be a step int he right direction.
Way too much typing... I'm sure I'll need to clarify something. :-)