I was raised to say Ma'am and Sir. I also do a lot of martial arts and and if I fail to use Ma'am or sir when addressing my master I end up doing push-ups. I don't like push-ups. So it is hard-wired in my brain to say Ma'am and sir.
Enter my co-worker, a single lady in her 50's. gets really upset when people use the term "Ma'am". She will go so far as to correct the offendor saying something along the lines of "I am not that old, I am not a Ma'am". A lot of our clients are military and these young men and women call in daily and end up getting lectured each and every time.
I gather Ma'am and Sir is used more commonly in the south, we do not hear it that much in the Pacific Northwest unless you live near a military base.
Is Ma'am and Sir antiquidated?
I still use Ma'am and Sir quite a bit and having been raised in eastern Washington state, heard them quite a bit growing up
small town life is small town life
I have found, however, that when in doubt, using "miss" instead of 'ma'am' will often get me a smile from a stranger whereas 'ma'am' might have made them feel self-conscious about their age
I was raised to say sir and miss, but not Ma'am actually my mother always said she thought that Ma'am was insulting to women for the same reason you stated above.
But then I joined the Army and now it is burned into my skull forever and now I can't help myself from saying it.
It definitely comes across as a bit antiquated (and, more importantly to me, uncomfortably deferent) to me, but I'm a millennial and from the Midwest. I was raised to be polite, but it was an egalitarian politeness.
I've definitely used "sir" in humorous contexts ("Good day, sir. I said good day!"), but I can't imagine using it seriously. I don't generally need a way to address people ("Pardon me," works just as well to get someone's attention as "Excuse me, sir"), and if I do, I ask their name.
As far as being on the receiving end, I usually get "miss," and yeah, "ma'am" makes me feel old, and like they're assuming I'm married. I prefer "miss" because it's closest to "Ms." without a name attached -- a form of address that doesn't imply that my status is somehow dependent on whether I'm married.
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To not say "sir" and "ma'am" is considered extremely insulting everywhere I've lived, unless you are significantly (~20+ years) older than the person you're speaking to, and a lot of the older folks will do so then anyway because "it's respectful". I lost count of how many conversations in my childhood consisted of "Yes/No" "Yes/No what?" "Yes/No sir/ma'am."
This is the first time I've ever heard of ma'am implying marriage. It's just the feminine of sir, as far as I've ever heard.
I generally use sir or ma'am. Miss if the lady in question gives me the impression that it would be a correct thing to say.
I might let such usage relax after enough encounters with an individual although sir usage generally gets lessened before Ma'am/Miss/Madam. I was raised in a rather matriarchal household and deference was required.
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This is the first time I've ever heard of ma'am implying marriage. It's just the feminine of sir, as far as I've ever heard.
What's "miss" the equivalent of, then?
This is the first time I've ever heard of ma'am implying marriage. It's just the feminine of sir, as far as I've ever heard.What's "miss" the equivalent of, then?
Unmarried counterpart to "Missus"/"Mrs.". With, as you said, "Ms." being the "don't know/don't care about marital status" option. (For the longest time I thought Ms. to be the abbreviation of Miss, and now that I know it's not it bugs me to no end because I can't figure out the pronunciation difference or what Ms. is supposed to stand for.)
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Unmarried counterpart to "Missus"/"Mrs.". With, as you said, "Ms." being the "don't know/don't care about marital status" option. (For the longest time I thought Ms. to be the abbreviation of Miss, and now that I know it's not it bugs me to no end because I can't figure out the pronunciation difference or what Ms. is supposed to stand for.)This is the first time I've ever heard of ma'am implying marriage. It's just the feminine of sir, as far as I've ever heard.What's "miss" the equivalent of, then?
I can answer that. It's pronounced "miz", like "Mrs." and "Miss" it's derived from "Mistress," it's the equivalent of "Mr." and in most professional contexts, it is the appropriate address for a woman (assuming you're using last names rather than first names) unless she specifies otherwise.
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Raised by carribean/hispanic/diaspora parents in america. Say Sir, Miss, or Madam to address strangers, or the black will be slapped off of you. My father's mother did not care for contractions, but she was considered incredibly old fashioned.
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Always have and still do. It's a southern thing, I guess. That, or my folks would beat me if I didn't. That's probably a southern thing, too.
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Last time a guy told me not to call him sir, I said "yes ma'am!"
He was amused, so was the table.
I am frequently told/asked not to call someone sir or ma'am but it still slips out- especially among folks I'm not familiar with or just 'cuz.
(and especially kids. Kids get a kick outta being called sir or ma'am for some reason)
In stores or in other places where I contact/encounter people without knowing or being expected to know their names I use them all the time.
thank you sir, no ma'am, excuse me sir can I get by? and such.
-S
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I was raised with the use of Sir, Miss, and Ma'am, midwest upbringing. Of course most of this was working in my grandfather's store, and he kind of drilled politeness in. Not just Sir and Ma'am, but please and thanks yous. And counting change back. One of his biggest pet peeves was when the clerk couldn't count his change back to him. I find A LOT of men hate being called Sir and often will respond in kind.
I've had similar experiences with Miss and Ma'am. It's really hit or miss it seems. Most of the time, no one really makes any kind of correction to me, but always a few unusual moments. I've had at least one incident where I called a young girl Miss and was informed it was Ma'am since she was married, and several incidents of older woman (probably 60s or older) ask to be called Miss since they weren't married or were widowed.
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I find it simply respectful and particularly appropriate in a professional environment.
I wonder if it makes some people uncomfortable because they are not used to being on the receiving end of respectful behavior due to a general decline in politeness and formality in our society.
Enter my co-worker, a single lady in her 50's. gets really upset when people use the term "Ma'am". She will go so far as to correct the offendor saying something along the lines of "I am not that old, I am not a Ma'am". A lot of our clients are military and these young men and women call in daily and end up getting lectured each and every time.
This kind of lecturing customers who are simply being respectful is, IMO, pretty unprofessional.
Though I speak in Castillian, the language equivalents ("Señor" for Sir, "Señora" for Ma'am, "Señorita" for Miss) are very important to differentiate around here, and I use them constantly.
Here in Chile, if you speak to a man around your age or older you are expected to refer to him as either Señor/Sir, Caballero/Gentleman, or Estimado/Esteemed (the latter usually comes with a more friendly tone while still keeping things formal with people you don't know, generally in the manner of "Mi Estimado/My Esteemed"). Failing to do so (such as with a Oiga/Hey) is seen as rude.
With women you are expected to say Señorita/Miss unless you can clearly see the woman is married (such as when in company of her husband). Calling a woman you don't know Señora/Ma'am is considered a minor rudeness, while saying Señorita/Miss to older women is considered polite and will most of the times award you a smile and a "Thank you for the 'Miss'".
Interestingly, while Caballero/Gentleman is very common, Dama/Lady is considered tacky.
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And in Sweden, the usage of our equivalents (Herr, Fru/Fröken) haven't really been in use since the late 60's - and if you use them today, there's a good chance people will think you're being sarcastic.
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All these titles are seriously toxic words. What they communicate to me, who grew up in Sweden, is DISTANCE. As in, "keep your distance", specifically pointing out that you in no way have a personal interest in talking to someone. I would say being addressed that way is vaguely insulting.
Then again, Sweden has gotten rid of first titles in favour of "ni", which is plural "you", and then that was removed to instate "du", which is singular "you".
Likely under the influence of American culture, titles are making a return in shops and such places, but they rarely understand that the message they send out isn't "my esteemed and honoured customer" but "what are you doing in my shop, you useless person?"
I wonder if Sweden's egalitarianism is why titles have fallen out of use there. The implied status difference in their use is definitely, I think, a major factor in my distaste for them.
All these titles are seriously toxic words. What they communicate to me, who grew up in Sweden, is DISTANCE. As in, "keep your distance", specifically pointing out that you in no way have a personal interest in talking to someone. I would say being addressed that way is vaguely insulting.
Then again, Sweden has gotten rid of first titles in favour of "ni", which is plural "you", and then that was removed to instate "du", which is singular "you".
Likely under the influence of American culture, titles are making a return in shops and such places, but they rarely understand that the message they send out isn't "my esteemed and honoured customer" but "what are you doing in my shop, you useless person?"
I suppose the interpretations can be different depending on the culture.
Around here, using those words is considered a sign of respect and deference; it's why you are expected to say them to people around your age or older, but not to people younger than you.
Also, consider than in Southern Cone Castillian -the one spoken in Chile, Argentina and Uruguay- we have four pronoun classes: "Vuestra" (Very Formal), "Usted" (Formal), "Tu" (Informal), and "Vos" (Very Informal, though in Argentina/Uruguay it has beecome the standard informal. Here in Chile Tu and Vos are still used separatelly), so the way we speak to each other depends on the degree of relationship and the social circumstance.
For instance, you always use "Usted" or "Vuestra Persona" when speaking in a formal situation. However, using such words switches the Language Formality into a context in which using informal words (like Hey) doesn't fit, so you have to retort to formal terms like Sir/Gentleman/Esteemed.
But in no case is a sign of distance. We're Latin Americans. Being distant and cold doesn't work with our culture.
Same here in Denmark as with our Swedish neighbours. It's occasionally used with older people (usually retired or at least 70+ years of age), as it harkens back to "their time."
Now if only we could get rid of the the titular "De" (a more formal version of "du" - meaning "you" - although the same word also means them or those. I guess the closest word would be "Thee") the stuck up royalty insists on being addressed with.
The Crown Prince's younger brother was being interviewed and the reporter happened to use "du" instead of "De" and with a haughty smirk the prince asked him to rephrase the question 3 times.
Stuck up, no good, spoiled "royalty" my a**.
[/anti-royal rant over]
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As I was leaving my military career behind, all service-members are required to take a class known as the TAP (Transition Assistance Program). One of the topics that came up relates directly to this discussion: when and where to use sir/ma'am or Mr./Mrs. The instructor advised us that the former should only be used during interviewing or while employed in locations in the Southeastern US or the Midwest. If located anywhere else, use the latter.
Thankfully I live in the Southeastern US, so transitioning with those terms was easy. The use of sir/ma'am is so ingrained in you from day one of basic training, that it is hard to really shake.
I suppose the interpretations can be different depending on the culture.
Around here, using those words is considered a sign of respect and deference; it's why you are expected to say them to people around your age or older, but not to people younger than you.
But that's the thing. Why does anyone automatically demand respect just because they are older than you?
Sure, one can be polite, but IMO respect is earned (and even then I probably wouldn't use an outdated mode of adressing someone, which implies said automatic deferrence)
In response to Mr.Bell: I agree, it is IMO very rude. It makes me cringe because the military folks that call our company are paragons of courtesy.
Since we have a few Midwestern people on the line I have a quick question.
What's up with the Midwesterners offering things in threes? Classic example:
"Would you like a cup of coffee?"
No thanks
"Are you sure you don't want a cup?"
No thank you
"You sure? It really is not a bother."
/sigh no thank you
We call it the Minnesota three. So odd...it's like they are trying to break your will.
-MD
IIRC, titles were dropped because it was a clear expectation that you needed to use the CORRECT title to address someone. Since this was typically difficult (is he older than you, has he doctored, is he a lieutenant or captain, does he have a noble title?), people had to rephrase their language so as to avoid any form of pronoun at all, which is a ridiculous way to speak in swedish. Things like "är det till att veta vad klockan är?", roughly "would there be knowing what time it is?", sound idiotic. Instead, everyone was supposed to use second person plural, which was in turn dropped for second person singular. That change, I believe, was in the sixties, grounded in a desire for egalitarianism.
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I suppose the interpretations can be different depending on the culture.
Around here, using those words is considered a sign of respect and deference; it's why you are expected to say them to people around your age or older, but not to people younger than you.
But that's the thing. Why does anyone automatically demand respect just because they are older than you?
Sure, one can be polite, but IMO respect is earned (and even then I probably wouldn't use an outdated mode of adressing someone, which implies said automatic deferrence)
Not only with those older. If I'm speaking with someone of my own age (or some years younger. The older you get, the less precise the range), I'm still supposed to treat him as Señor/Caballero/Estimado (I personally use Estimado most of the times).
With those who are younger, you use use Joven/Estimado in formal situations. Respect and deference also goes to those of less age.
As for earning respect, I suppose in our culture it is considered a good thing to assume anyone you haven't previously met as worthy of your respect, unless they do something to negate it.
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As for earning respect, I suppose in our culture it is considered a good thing to assume anyone you haven't previously met as worthy of your respect, unless they do something to negate it.
This. Respect and courtesy are everyone's due until they show themselves unworthy of them.
I would personally be uncomfortable with the kind of instant first-name familiarity that Sissyl describes as the norm in Sweden. Not that I think Swedes are rude for avoiding the use of titles--the cultural and linguistic differences are quite interesting.
You can still be polite, respectful and courteous without using something that, to me, makes things overly formal and stilted.
It also, again, to me, seems to indicate that some people are automatically "better" or more important than others (which is clearly what people thought "back in the day" when these things originated). I find that inherently distasteful.
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Never saw using titles as a way to tell someone that i want distance and that they are not worthy of my attention. That seems silly to me.
OTOH i generally dislike people and like keeping my distance from everyone i don't care about.
I have always seen titles as a way of showing respect. Not deference though. I defer to nobody, because i do not consider anyone to be better then i am. And why would i defer to my equals?
Using titles is not common in Australia, insincere familiarity draws contempt. If We like you we give you a cool nickname and if we don't like you we give a crap nickname. If we respect you we generally use your full name.
Our current primeminster is called K-Rudd or Kev, our opposition leader is often referred to as the Mad Monk. He cops a lot of flack for the time he wore budgie smugglers (speedos, use your imagination) during a photo op.... He is a less insane version of Putin.
When I worked for the retail side of my financial organisation, some moron payed millions for a Yank motivational speaker to come out and teach us how to sell more.... We had to watch videos that made our skin crawl, it was slimy, manipulative, overly familiar.... All I remember is having to shout "the power and glory is yours" at the end of a session.
You can still be polite, respectful and courteous without using something that, to me, makes things overly formal and stilted.
It also, again, to me, seems to indicate that some people are automatically "better" or more important than others (which is clearly what people thought "back in the day" when these things originated). I find that inherently distasteful.
My point is that I don't think those meanings are included in these terms. Perhaps stuff like Your Majesty does, but Sir/Señor is simply a formal way of refering to any man you don't know, while Ma'am/Señora is the same idea, but for women. There are semantic differences based on age and relationship, but the respect contained is the same across the board (for example, the word Don/Doña, which sort of translates into a mixture of Lord/Lady and Mr/Mrs, is used when refering in third person to anyone who is a teen or older under formal circumstances. The slight difference comes from the fact that Don is used with the first name, like in Don Alberto or Doña Josefina, while Señor/Señora is used with the last name, like in Señor Etchegaray or Señorita Ossandón).
As I said, perhaps Scandinavian culture sees these things differently than Souther Latin American, so there is a possibility that we're disagreeing simply on a matter of perspective. But the only difference between Sir and Dude (at least, again, in the particular cultural conext I grew up/live) is the formality. And employing formal speech is considered polite when you are speaking with people you don't know.
There is no implied status difference in the term. You use it when talking to both the poor and the rich, to your boss and to your workers.
I agree there are definitely cultural differences in usage. What is normal for Latin America may not be normal for Western Europe, and what's normal for speakers of Germanic languages might not be normal for speakers of Romance languages.
All of that said (and while those differences are definitely interesting!) I think the OP was asking about perceptions/standards of behavior in the U.S. :-)
Getting back to what seemed to be his actual question: do what seems normal for the region you live in.
If you're asking generally, I'd err on the side of addressing a woman as "miss" rather than "ma'am" if you're not sure of her age and marital status. Everyone's different, of course, and no usage is going to seem right to everyone, but in general -- acknowledging that there's individual variation! -- I think women are less offended by the assumption that we're younger than we are than the assumption that we're older than we are.
What's up with the Midwesterners offering things in threes? [...]
We call it the Minnesota three. So odd...it's like they are trying to break your will.
It used to be polite to refuse offers twice; if the person didn't offer again, it meant they were only offering to be polite, and by refusing, you politely didn't put them out.
The refusing twice part has (mostly) gone away, but the offering repeatedly lingers, partly to make sure you're not refusing politely... and partly, of course, to break your will. You're not imagining that. ;-)
What really gets my goat is when a stranger (or anyone really, even people close to me) call me 'hun' or 'sugar'. These are amongst the most dire of condescending insults where I live.
They relate only one message:
"I am better than you and you are so pitiful I must treat you like an ignorant child."
It's amazing how many people mistake rudeness for egalitarianism
Strangely, most people seem to think I'm pretty polite despite my not using "sir" or "ma'am."
I don't think I need a "sir" after "pardon me" or "please" or "thank you" to make it polite.
It's amazing how many people mistake rudeness for egalitarianismStrangely, most people seem to think I'm pretty polite despite my not using "sir" or "ma'am."
I don't think I need a "sir" after "pardon me" or "please" or "thank you" to make it polite.
with work being occasionally confusing, I use "friend" in place of ma'am or sir a lot.
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I work for a major retail corporation. My job is to call all around the U.S. and Canada working with vendors to repair assets at my company's locations. So it is interesting to hear the differences in cultural response. I notice the southern respectful title usage more than anywhere else. Southerners tend to be polite and respectful even in stressful situations. Folks out east tend to be less formal and can be rude more often than not. On the other hand, I really appreciate the "I gotta get this done tomorrow" attitude. Folks out west tend to be polite but they are never in a hurry to get anything done IME.
I notice mostly its middle-aged women who use the "Hun", "Sugar", or "Sweety". I don't hear that often but I think that is a generational thing. I also had a blue collar background and notice that women who work with a lot men tend to be most likely to use "sweety" salutations.
Speaking of blue collar, anybody heard the phrase ol' lady? Its a guy thing that refers to girlfriend or wife. Oddly enough its a term of endearment with the users but its also a bit disrespectful. That one doesn't go over well with the ladies and I cant say I blame them. However, I really don't get the backlash against Mam. The person is just trying to be respectful in most cases. Another generational thing I think. The married women in my office prefer Miss even though that's typically a title for unmarried women. Saying Mam to them is like calling them geriatric which is just silly.
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with work being occasionally confusing, I use "friend" in place of ma'am or sir a lot.It's amazing how many people mistake rudeness for egalitarianismStrangely, most people seem to think I'm pretty polite despite my not using "sir" or "ma'am."
I don't think I need a "sir" after "pardon me" or "please" or "thank you" to make it polite.
Tone can change everything. You can use a respectful title sarcastically. Its also not unheard of for people to misinterpret an honest greeting as disingenuous.
Tone can change everything. You can use a respectful title sarcastically. Its also not unheard of for people to misinterpret an honest greeting as disingenuous.with work being occasionally confusing, I use "friend" in place of ma'am or sir a lot.It's amazing how many people mistake rudeness for egalitarianismStrangely, most people seem to think I'm pretty polite despite my not using "sir" or "ma'am."
I don't think I need a "sir" after "pardon me" or "please" or "thank you" to make it polite.
oh no, I meant confusing with respect to gender. Not everyone presents as the gender they are.
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I get it, and I even cringe myself when people call me sir, because it means my death is stalking nearer and nearer, and it shakes me from the default denial fantasy that I'm still in my 20's or something.
But I don't say anything, because I'm not a douche.
It just seems like a dk move to whine to somebody about it, and I think it's a good litmus to tell you if somebody's anal, and thus you'll know to avoid their parties and/or keep them at arm's length because they're a soul sucker.
I wasn't raised to say ma'am or sir. I was more raised to say "f!~& off, you shorteye m$@*+&&~*!@*."
But the Army kinda beats that "sir" and "ma'am" s@@& into a guy.
I'm from the South (Northwest Florida), but I don't consider myself a "Southerner".
That being said, I was raised to say "yes ma'am" and "yes sir", and I use it on everyone - whether they're younger or older than me.
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Oh, we swedes are polite. Please, excuse me and especially thank you (tack) are used all the time. An american I talked to told me that being in Sweden meant hearing taktaktaktak like some slow machine gun all the time. Buying stuff, especially, means at least four or five tack, when you tell him/her what you want, when it is put on the counter, when he/she tells you the price, when you give the money, when you get the change, perhaps even when you take the stuff and go.
"Citizen," "Comrade," and "Stooge." Everything else stinks of class privilege and slave-owning.
Vive le Galt!
From now on I will use only 'human'.
"Hello, human!"
"Need any assistance, human?"
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The first time I entered a FLGS as an adult (Pandemonium Books, when it was still in Harvard Square) I was enthusiastically welcomed by a lisping, hobbling, coke-bottle bespectacled dude who yelled "Greetings, mortal!"
I always thought that was great.