Goblin Squad Member
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Why drive your easy prey into extinction?
I don't mean to be so harsh but the only "easy prey" that will be driven off are those that can't handle losing a little bit to PvP. They are what I describe as PvE Loot Monkeys. Steal a copper from them and they are on the verge of rage quitting. Quite honestly the game can do without them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My only worry is that the game becomes a constant "gear management" grind.
I can see that, given
"We're currently deciding on how many deaths is reasonable before an item is totally destroyed (without any repair), but it will likely be in the single or low double-digits."
If even your threaded items will survive so poorly, folks who expect to die a lot, like me, will need to consider never having anything nice, possibly even not bothering to thread, other than to protect items being transported for payment. I was planning to travel with the cheapest trash for all my non-threaded equipment, but now I might not have a reason to thread anything at all, nor try to get good equipment, unless I constantly know where the nearest friendly settlement is, for repairs.
The other impact is on the frequency one needs to visit a settlement. Folks won't be able to stay out for extended periods, given the need to repair and re-acquire gear. The Jeremiah Johnsons of the world better be able to do as he did, and make basic-everything for yourself from scratch, if they want to avoid other folk.
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Goblin Squad Member
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lol. Your idea of a "reasonable SAD" will just drive more into "Millions for defence, not one copper for tribute!".Your rep will tank. If that does not regulate your behavior somehow, and in fact causes it to unbalance banditry, I am sure that the mechanics will be adjusted.
No, our reputation remains the same if the SAD is rejected. Our loot is 75% if you reject and lose.
I laugh every time you guys write that slogan of yours. Maybe 1 in a 1000 will take that stance and maybe only once or twice before they realize that it sounds better in theory than it works out in practice.
If you are doing it and no one else is, you will be one if the poorest merchants on the server. But hey, that just gives me 75% of what you had instead of the 40% I might have asked for., actually you probably wouldn't flag for PvP, so make that 60%.
You also assume that we will just be bandits. We will also do quests and mess with escalations. Depending on the alignment and reputation bonuses that go with doing those, I could quite possibly be a Chaotic Good, High Rep Bandit.
Oh what irony would that be?
If there is no profit, and probable loss regardless of flags, there will be fewer and fewer solitary or under protected chance takers. Why transport goods to fail contracts and lose money?
I see a self destructive death spiral. Oh well, I am sure that you know what you want.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Your rep will tank.
As long as they offer SADs, they won't take rep hits.
The real question is whether they're willing to expose themselves to the risk of approaching a caravan to offer a SAD only to have the caravan guards get the jump on them because they have no intention of even listening to the SAD offer.
Why not... The bonuses an Outlaw gets are more loot (and that might be minimal or nothing as of yesterday) and increased stealth, which might not be needed after you've done your ambush.
Sure, if you're willing to wait another 10 hours before you're full power for your next ambush.
The Outlaw's greatest vulnerability will be approaching a caravan to offer a SAD and not knowing if the caravan is even going to listen. If they can approach in stealth, they give the caravan guards less time to react. If they have friends in stealth, they'll have a better chance of surviving the caravan guards' first strike.
I laugh every time you guys write that slogan of yours.
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Goblin Squad Member
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And don't forget that example of character 'fully invested in carrying capacity', meaning that this Character has specifically gone out of their way to be a glorified Mule.
Starting encumbrance is 20 points. Permanent upgrades (I read that as it might be trainable 'skill') add another 50 points. Long-term buffs add another 25 or more (this likely includes the traveler buff as well as spells, etc.). 20 + 50 + 25 = around 100 encumbrance points.
I figure the permanent upgrades to encumbrance will be a pretty common thing we want, so I'd guess that many people will be in the 50-70 range without bags (so 250-350 lbs) if they aren't merchants or mules.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If I remember correctly everyone will be able to identify someone flying a long-term flag. If the bandits use stealth they will still be seen as Outlaws when they drop stealth to offer SAD. The Enforcer guards will still attack. Much remains to be seen regarding the consequences of being in a "party" and its impact of flag usage. If the bandits try and disguise and stealth, when they try to make a SAD offer they will still be considered Outlaws.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You also assume that we will just be bandits. We will also do quests and mess with escalations. Depending on the alignment and reputation bonuses that go with doing those, I could quite possibly be a Chaotic Good, High Rep Bandit.
Oh what irony would that be?
Not really ironic at all! Robin Hood perchance?
Can someone explain the threaded gear concept? Been slowly going through all the blogs and might not have reached that blog yet that explains this. Is threaded gear the gear you have equipped?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Can someone explain the threaded gear concept? Been slowly going through all the blogs and might not have reached that blog yet that explains this. Is threaded gear the gear you have equipped?
In essence, you'll have access to a number of Threads, and you'll be able to apply those Threads to specific items (not just armor and weapons) to ensure those stay with you when you die. Higher Tier items will require more Threads. So, you might be able to Thread a full outfit of Tier 1 items, but only a couple of Tier 3 items.
Here's the official explanation:
As mentioned previously, players that die and respawn leave most of their gear on their husks. The only items that remain with them are those that have been attached via metaphysical "threads." Players will have discretion in tying threads and can reassign threads without losing them: one day a player might have 19 threads devoted to her armor; the next day she could switch them to instead protect her gloves, hat, boots, belt, and amulet. (Items require different numbers of threads based on their size and importance.)
As a player advances, she can purchase more threads. However, items of higher quality and tier require more threads. A starting character with starting gear has sufficient threads to protect all the gear she is likely to carry (one weapon, a set of armor, and a half dozen or so miscellaneous items). A character that has reached level 20 in a role and has all top-quality gear, meanwhile, may only be able to protect her armor and one weapon, three weapons and a miscellaneous item, or some other combination (but she could protect a larger amount of gear if she were willing to use weaker items for some of her slots). And a new player given a top-tier weapon may not be able to bind anything else but that.
Additionally, players use threads to bind to intermediary resurrection sites: you can always respawn at the nearest big statue of Pharasma (usually confined to rare, significant locations), but the world is also full of player-created or pre-placed smaller shrines to Pharasma. If you bind to one of these smaller shrines, it's likely to be much closer to the place you died.
Effectively, starting characters are going to have sufficient threads to protect most of their gear and rarely suffer major setbacks from being killed. However, as players advance their characters, they'll have to start making meaningful decisions about death: Will you use mostly weaker gear so you don't have to risk much of it on death? Will you bind to a lot of shrines so you're always near your corpse for a better chance to recover everything before it's looted? Or will you bind only your most prized and best gear, risking the rest?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bandits will attack with nothing but Threaded Items and perhaps a buff or two. No loss if they lose the fight.
If they die, all their Threaded gear takes 1 point of Item Decay.
We're currently deciding on how many deaths is reasonable before an item is totally destroyed (without any repair), but it will likely be in the single or low double-digits.
If it's 12, then that means the Bandits lose 8.5% of the value of their Threaded Gear every time they die.
Goblinworks' decision to encourage Banditry is not because Banditry in itself is a desirable end. Rather, the threat of Banditry creates very strong incentives for players to band together. That is the actual desirable end.
Good to know we have folks who know who should and should not play already...
Yeah, it's frustrating dealing with these naysayers when they completely ignore Ryan's explicit request to stop telling people this game isn't for them.
As long as those naysayers don't try to silence the voices who are actually trying to spread the game designers' message, I suppose they're not doing too much harm.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bandits will attack with nothing but Threaded Items and perhaps a buff or two. No loss if they lose the fight.Players seeking to clear areas will do the same, or risk supplying Bandits.
GW has pretty much implied that a character with gear poor enough quality to be threaded, vs a character who goes above that, will be about as effective as firing a slingshot at a tank.
(digging quote now)
source
We also don't intend to let characters have any real PvP capabilities "naked". You'll have to wear some kind of protection, have to use some kind of consumable, and generally be burning economic assets of some kind when you fight other players. So there will always be a cost to engage in PvP. You won't be able to run up to a character wearing nothing and stab your target to death with a newbie dagger.
Also there is a layered series of "defenses" as well.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The whole point is that it will not be easy for bandits or traders. If you kill for 75% or SAD for 60%, you will find fewer and fewer low power targets. You will kill off your income source from banditry. It needs to be a balance so that some traders will take the risk and get picked off occasionally.
Yes you can do all kinds of "side work". If you do more "side work' than regular banditry, what makes you any different than any other shady mercs?
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Goblin Squad Member
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(digging quote now)Aaaaaaand, Ryan makes that totally unnecessary :)
CUUURRSSEE YOUUUU DANCEY!!!!! what good is my digging through 2 years of your posts, if you are just going to give us a modern relevant quote confirming it before I can finish!!!
If you keep this up, people like me and Nihmon might have smaller ego's than we currently do!
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Goblin Squad Member
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Once a large group goes Outlaw together 40-100 folks, then the system will be tested.I can only hope we have such a "target-rich environment" :)
I think the point he was making was that, if a blob is big enough, they can be naked and armed with a rusty dagger and still reap havoc across the countryside.....
Goonswarm anyone?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the point he was making was that, if a blob is big enough, they can be naked and armed with a rusty dagger and still reap havoc across the countryside..... Goonswarm anyone?
I thought briefly about finding Ryan's quote about how the Goonswarm worked; the necessary conditions, short interior lines, etc. Then I found this relevant quote: "you'll only be able to reliably gank with nothing but threads if we're dumb." I think they're paying close attention to how things work in other games. It might still work sometimes; the key word might be reliably.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the point he was making was...
Yeah, I think he made his point clearly. At least, I didn't have any trouble getting it.
Goonswarm anyone?
Ryan's explained before that the Goons were successful because of game mechanics in Eve that made zerg swarms effective. PFO won't have those mechanics, and will in fact have mechanics that allow cohesive units to completely steamroll a much larger mob.
So, like I said, I can only hope we have such a "target-rich environment" :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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The whole point is that it will not be easy for bandits or traders. If you kill for 75% or SAD for 60%, you will find fewer and fewer low power targets.
I see a lot of posts mentioning "SAD for XX%" and I am just left clueless... what is that supposed to mean? SAD for a percentage of what is being carried?
SAD is for coin, not goods. The value of the carried goods can not (reliably) be determined by the game.
The way I understand it, the bandit chooses a sum of money for the SAD.
Have many people missed that about SADs or have I missed some newer information? Or is it that I just don't get what you mean?
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Goblin Squad Member
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SAD is for coin, not goods.That has been pointed out a number of times, and completely ignored each time.
Eventually there will be a clarifying post. I can hope that it be titled: "A man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest."
edit: I wouldn't be surprised though, if the rules change and allow SADs to include items. We just haven't seen it yet.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If SAD is for coin, but coin doesn't drop when the Outlaw is killed, then it's a one-way transfer of coin to the bandits. The bandits might not have many other sources of coin* if they don't PvE or craft for a living (lazy moochers), but the one-way transfer seems... problematic.
edit: we don't know much about sources of coin - where it comes from originally. I assume PvE drops.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have seen no where that is says SADs pay in coin, or goods or both or neither. If it is the percentage of the value of what is being carried, paid in coin... Ahh... YES PLEASE!! If it is a percentage of the total wealth of the traveler (what he/she has in bank)... OH, HELL YEAH!! If it is a percentage of what items the traveler is carrying... OK, that is what I figured.
Percentages are used to just say what would be requested based on what is available, doesn't matter what form the loot is.
I would take coin over anything else, because it has not incumbrance and it can not be lost in death.
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Goblin Squad Member
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More likely it will just be a flat fee named by the Bandit. The robbed will have a choice to accept or decline the named price (or negotiate).
I do not think bandits should be able to see the value of the materials in a caravan without initiating a search that takes longer than a SAD. Uses of this search? Get a spy in on the caravan team. Tell the boss whether it is worth attacking. No scrying without a scryer.
SADs sound more and more like tolls to me...
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have seen no where that is says SADs pay in coin...
Well, I suppose you can try to say that "coin" isn't the same as "money"...
Outlaws use a new mechanic we are working on developing called stand and deliver, which allows the Outlaw to demand money from their victim through a trade window.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If SAD is for coin, but coin doesn't drop when the Outlaw is killed, then it's a one-way transfer of coin to the bandits. The bandits might not have many other sources of coin* if they don't PvE or craft for a living (lazy moochers), but the one-way transfer seems... problematic.
edit: we don't know much about sources of coin - where it comes from originally. I assume PvE drops.
Well that one way transfer is kind of irrelevant. What is the bandit going to do with that coin? Go to a settlement and purchase training IE sending it to said settlement, or go out and purchase gear, giving money to a crafter, and now giving you something shiny to steal off of the bandit when you kill him.
Bandits will most likely have to pay a premium to use coin, as very likely only a small group will actually be willing to buy from them etc... and those few outliers that do make fine war targets for those who wish to crusade in the name of justice.
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Goblin Squad Member
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edit: we don't know much about sources of coin - where it comes from originally. I assume PvE drops.
All the coin in the game enters via a faucet. Faucets are things like rewards from NPCs for completing various tasks, or payments made by NPCs when they buy things from player characters. New coin may also be found as loot when a monster is defeated, or it may be discovered as treasure while exploring.
There are also some neat diagrams in Adventure in the River Kingdoms that show how Coin moves through the system.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So just like in EvE, bandits (pirates) will have secret contacts (alts) to take care if their business in the settlements. Been there, done that, no real hinderence.
I hope you all wage war against each other, you will need plenty of materials and coin to do that. Gives us plenty of targets as well, because we will always pick a side in any war, we would be foolish not to.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You also assume that we will just be bandits. We will also do quests and mess with escalations. Depending on the alignment and reputation bonuses that go with doing those, I could quite possibly be a Chaotic Good, High Rep Bandit.
Oh what irony would that be?
This is exactly what the argument about the current alignment/reputation systems not being good enough are about. But I digress...
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Goblin Squad Member
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Umm I take back my upset previous post. There is this quote:
Deciding how much to carry, how many guards to bring, and whether to fight or try to flee when you see a bandit should be significant choices as a traveler. Conversely, player bandits should have to decide whether attacking just anyone is worth it, and whether it's better to make a surprise attack or actually try to extort goods from the traveler first (if they stand and deliver, it triggers none of the consequences).
Turns out SADs might need some clarification.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Umm I take back my upset previous post. There is this quote:
Deciding how much to carry, how many guards to bring, and whether to fight or try to flee when you see a bandit should be significant choices as a traveler. Conversely, player bandits should have to decide whether attacking just anyone is worth it, and whether it's better to make a surprise attack or actually try to extort goods from the traveler first (if they stand and deliver, it triggers none of the consequences).Turns out SADs might need some clarification.
Want to point out though, the quote I pulled up just now is older than the one mentioning coin
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Goblin Squad Member
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If SAD is for coin, but coin doesn't drop when the Outlaw is killed, then it's a one-way transfer of coin to the bandits. The bandits might not have many other sources of coin* if they don't PvE or craft for a living (lazy moochers), but the one-way transfer seems... problematic.
edit: we don't know much about sources of coin - where it comes from originally. I assume PvE drops.
Well that one way transfer is kind of irrelevant. What is the bandit going to do with that coin? Go to a settlement and purchase training IE sending it to said settlement, or go out and purchase gear, giving money to a crafter, and now giving you something shiny to steal off of the bandit when you kill him.
I don't think it is irrelevant. Consider this situation, my caravan gets tolled (SAD), a group of my settlement's enforcers are immediately dispatched. I negotiate the toll price as a delay tactic...but eventually agree to pay because my group's arrival is eminent. My enforcers slaughter the bandits, I want my toll payment to be something I can loot back.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So just like in EvE, bandits (pirates) will have secret contacts (alts) to take care if their business in the settlements. Been there, done that, no real hinderence.
I hope you all wage war against each other, you will need plenty of materials and coin to do that. Gives us plenty of targets as well, because we will always pick a side in any war, we would be foolish not to.
I'm glad that you're finally starting to see things more my way in terms of how bandits should operate.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is exactly what the argument about the current alignment/reputation systems not being good enough are about. But I digress...You also assume that we will just be bandits. We will also do quests and mess with escalations. Depending on the alignment and reputation bonuses that go with doing those, I could quite possibly be a Chaotic Good, High Rep Bandit.
Oh what irony would that be?
No, you are just failing to put the alignments into the proper context. In the River Kingdoms, stealing through force (robbery) or the threat of force (extortion) are not Evil acts, they are neutral. You have to change your belief that stealing from you must be evil because you have been harmed.
The Reputation system has nothing to do with how you feel or what has happened to you. It is how the player plays within the rules of the game.
If I am Chaotic Neutral I can use two flags: Outlaw (chaotic) and Traveler (neutral). Travelers gain reputation every hour that they have their Traveler Flag active. I can very easily SAD all day, and then if need be fly the Trav. Flag for 1 hour to get a Rep boost, then go back to Outlaw Flag, or I can throw in an escalation and probably pick up some Good alignment shift, to compensate for any of the killing I had to do when we did not SAD first.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In the River Kingdoms, stealing through force (robbery) or the threat of force (extortion) are not Evil acts, they are neutral. You have to change your belief that stealing from you must be evil because you have been harmed.
I don't think that's totally true. Robbery appears to be evil:
Killing other players without flags results in loss of good vs. evil...