Taking the same feat multiple times


Rules Questions

Liberty's Edge

5 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.

Normally, taking the same feat multiple times, unless otherwise allowed by the feat itself, results in redundant benefits. However, this isn't the case with all feats. Specifically, spell perfection doesn't have text permitting it to be taken multiple times, but assuming you can choose a different spell each time it not stacking would never actually be a problem. The rules don't directly address this issue, stating only:

Quote:
If a character has the same feat more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated otherwise in the description.

Can you take the same feat, spell perfection for example, more than once if the feat doesn't have text explicitly permitting it?

and

If you can choose spell perfection multiple times, does that enable you to choose a different spell each time?


I believe the general ruling is no, you can't take the same feat multiple times unless the feat explicitly says you can (and usually gives some conditional modifiers).

Allowing spell perfection multiple times with different spells would be especially unwise and overpowering because of the metamagic cost reduction that you could then gain with a variety of spells. The only balance the Spell Perfection feat has is that you must choose only one spell to ever get the benefits.


Quote:

Feat Descriptions

Feats are summarized on Table: Feats below. Note that the prerequisites and benefits of the feats on this table are abbreviated for ease of reference. See the feats description for full details.

The following format is used for all feat descriptions.

Feat Name: The feat's name also indicates what subcategory, if any, the feat belongs to, and is followed by a basic description of what the feat does.

Prerequisite: A minimum ability score, another feat or feats, a minimum base attack bonus, a minimum number of ranks in one or more skills, or anything else required in order to take the feat. This entry is absent if a feat has no prerequisite. A feat may have more than one prerequisite.

Benefit: What the feat enables the character (“you” in the feat description) to do. If a character has the same feat more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated otherwise in the description.

Normal: What a character who does not have this feat is limited to or restricted from doing. If not having the feat causes no particular drawback, this entry is absent.

Special: Additional unusual facts about the feat.

It is not otherwise indicated in the description of Spell Perfection, so you definitely don't gain the benefit more than once.

Liberty's Edge

I believe the ruling is no as well. The question is, do you have any rules text to back that up, because I don't.

Sczarni

In example, Extra Ki. "You can use your ki pool more times per day than most.

Prerequisite: Ki pool class feature.

Benefit: Your ki pool increases by 2.

Special: You can gain Extra Ki multiple times. Its effects stack."

Otherwise, the Feat will not stack.

Liberty's Edge

What isn't stacking in the feat spell perfection? If it is the "choose a spell" I'd consider "not stacking" really bad wording, and if it is the benefits I apply to the spell that's perfectly fine because I don't need the benefits more than once per spell anyways.

Sczarni

Let's look at the description a little more thoroughly:

"You are unequaled at the casting of one particular spell.

Prerequisites: Spellcraft 15 ranks, at least three metamagic feats.

Benefit: Pick one spell which you have the ability to cast. Whenever you cast that spell you may apply any one metamagic feat you have to that spell without affecting its level or casting time, as long as the total modified level of the spell does not use a spell slot above 9th level. In addition, if you have other feats which allow you to apply a set numerical bonus to any aspect of this spell (such as Spell Focus, Spell Penetration, Weapon Focus [ray], and so on), double the bonus granted by that feat when applied to this spell."

I could imagine you can take this several times judging by the wording. However, it won't stack with itself multiple times, but could be applied to different spells. Then comes Weapon Focus as a good example.

"Weapon Focus (Combat)
Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for the purposes of this feat.

Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1.

Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon.

Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon."

Albeit examples are guidelines in hopefully the right direction, but don't always represent the correct raw terminology.
This makes me believe that you truly can only take Spell Perfection once since it doesn't have any other description stating otherwise. The fluffy text at the beginning of Spell Perfection makes me believe the goal of this feat is to only make you significantly better at 1 spell than others. The RAW of it seems to suggest otherwise, but at the same time it doesn't have the "Special:" description that they usually put letting you know if it does or doesn't stack/reapply.

I would have to go with a No overall on taking this feat multiple times. Magic is strong enough anyways ;)

Have you googled or checked any FAQs for this feat? I'm sure they're out there. I'm not much of a caster but I would like to know the answer too at this point.

Liberty's Edge

I googled and searched the forums before I posted the thread. I'm not 100% certain there isn't anything out there, but I'm fairly certain.

This thread was made because I saw someone recommend taking spell perfection twice. I said it couldn't be done, but I wasn't actually able to provide any actual rules text proving my point. So that's why I'm asking. I fully believe the RAI is that you can't take it twice.

Sczarni

I can't find anything either :(

Liberty's Edge

Was this feat available in 3.5?

The way the feat is worded, it seems like it could have been possible to take multiple times, but they forgot to add the part about needing to apply it to a different spell each time.

Good question!


@Shadowcatx: Awhile back I posted a question regarding the Extra Channel feat. My thought was that because all the other 'Extra' feats (Revelation, Arcana, etc.) included the text allowing you to take it multiple times, it was possible Extra Channel was meant to be the same but the text was inadvertently left off.

The answer came back as "No response required", and Sean's clarification later in the thread made it fairly clear that if the feat text does not specify that you can take it multiple times, you cannot.

[edit]
Actually, my discussion with Sean was apparently in a different thread, which I can't locate right now. It was prompted by the Extra Channel thread though, and his assertion was that feats are once-only unless they explicitly state otherwise.


Xaratherus wrote:

@Shadowcatx: Awhile back I posted a question regarding the Extra Channel feat. My thought was that because all the other 'Extra' feats (Revelation, Arcana, etc.) included the text allowing you to take it multiple times, it was possible Extra Channel was meant to be the same but the text was inadvertently left off.

The answer came back as "No response required", and Sean's clarification later in the thread made it fairly clear that if the feat text does not specify that you can take it multiple times, you cannot.

[edit]
Actually, my discussion with Sean was apparently in a different thread, which I can't locate right now. It was prompted by the Extra Channel thread though, and his assertion was that feats are once-only unless they explicitly state otherwise.

Actually I remember readin that thread, because I had always assumed they were once only except it cases were it explicitly said could be taken multiple times, but I also thought Extra Channel should have been an exception when it was not.


Would this still be ok to home rule? For example, I'm building a Tattooed Sorcerer/Mystic (Not sure which yet) and I've been considering taking Mage's tattoo twice if it was possible. If it's not, It's not too much a drag, but my GM has proclaimed that if I want to do that at his table, I have to have Spell Focus twice as well.

Ex. If I want Mage's Tattoo (Evocation and Conjuration) I must also have Spell Focus (Evocation and Conjuration).

He argued that while the feat didn't offer a means by which you could take it multiple time (as has been discussed here) that the only way he would feel comfortable with it was if I took it's prerequisite just as many times.

Seems fair to me but I wanted to offer it for discussion as this is the only forum post I've seen that remotely begins to answer my questions about this particular topic.


That seems fair to me also to require the prereq to be taken for each use of the feat.


There is no rule as to not being bale to take the same feat multiple times.

The only rule referencing multiple feasts in some way is in the "Benefit" description of feats (Core p.113):
(quote) Benefit: What the feat enables the character (“you” in the feat description) to do. If a character has the same feat more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated otherwise in the description. (end quote)

The definition of "stacking" here is a bit lacking, and prone to multiple interpretations - and it falls to each DM (or a FAQ) clarifying what does it cover. In my personal experience, I do think it implies feats with some kind of numerical advantage that can be stacked, since the only feats with a note on what these feats do when taken multiple times are feats with numerical advantakes, such as weapon focus and similar feats.

That said, feats like Eldritch Heritage that give different benefits that are not stackable (are not tied to a numerical value, such as uses per day, a numerical bonus, or similar) CAN be taken multiple times (no rule prohibits that), and since the benefits it gives has nothing to do with stacking, they work all right as intended.

Of course, your DM might disagree with my judgement and apply his own interpretation and rule; I've had players with multiple bloodlines using feats, and given the heavy toll in feats these bloodline take, they are not more overpowered than standard powergamers :).


Xen_Xheng wrote:

There is no rule as to not being bale to take the same feat multiple times.

The only rule referencing multiple feasts in some way is in the "Benefit" description of feats (Core p.113):
(quote) Benefit: What the feat enables the character (“you” in the feat description) to do. If a character has the same feat more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated otherwise in the description. (end quote)

I agree.

Since the rules provide for what happens when you do take a Feat more than once, it clearly is not illegal to take a Feat more than once.

Also, it cannot be simply illegal to take a Feat more than once. If a Fighter takes Improved Unarmed Strike, what if he then wants to take a level in Monk, which grants IUS as a Bonus Feat? He would be taking IUS twice, so taking that level in Monk would be illegal. It isn't, so it isn't.

Liberty's Edge

Xen_Xheng wrote:
There is no rule as to not being bale to take the same feat multiple times.
Ultimate Combat wrote:

Benefit: The benefit is what a feat enables a character (“you” in the feat description) to do. If a character has the same feat more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated in the feat's Special line.

...
Special: This line lists special features of the feat, such as, but not limited to, whether or not you can take the feat more than once, or whether the feat allows members of specific classes to gain additional benefits.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Xen_Xheng wrote:

That said, feats like Eldritch Heritage that give different benefits that are not stackable (are not tied to a numerical value, such as uses per day, a numerical bonus, or similar) CAN be taken multiple times (no rule prohibits that), and since the benefits it gives has nothing to do with stacking, they work all right as intended.

They also don't have any provisions for making more than one selection, so even if you took it more than once, you would not gain any additional benefits. Contrast that to Weapon Specialization, which says you can take it more than once, and each time it applies to a different weapon.


In general think of a Feat as a skill you learned, once you have learned it it cannot be applied again as you already know it. Now using a skill like sharpen knife and also be use to learn how to sharpen an axe. The same feat sharpen item is used but it different for each item it is applied to.

So simply put once you have learned, and mastered it, you cannot learn it better. You can however forget it then have to re-learn it.


GotAFarmYet? wrote:

In general think of a Feat as a skill you learned, once you have learned it it cannot be applied again as you already know it. Now using a skill like sharpen knife and also be use to learn how to sharpen an axe. The same feat sharpen item is used but it different for each item it is applied to.

So simply put once you have learned, and mastered it, you cannot learn it better. You can however forget it then have to re-learn it.

From a verisimilitude standpoint, I find your argument profoundly conterintuitive. I have a driver's license, but that doesn't mean I'm ready for Daytona. I know how to bounce a ball, throw a ball, and catch a ball: watch out, NBA: here I come! I'd say most skills you totally continue to improve upon and spend your whole life doing it.

I like your example of knife sharpening. If knife sharpening worked like Weapon Focus, you'd need to take separate Feats for every implement you'd sharpen: Sharpening: Knife, Sharpening, Sword, Sharpening Scissors, Sharpening, Chainsaw, and while anyone with a level Fighter can use any Simple or Martial weapon, you to spend a Feat to get a +1 with any one of them.

So the rules don't say that you can't take a single Feat more than once, but from a game-mechanic point-of-view, I do agree with you. Whether or not you can take a Feat more than once, who would want to?

There are certain Feats a character might want to take more than once. Improved Natural Attack comes to mind. My Tengu Warpriest might want to take Improved Natural Attack for both his Claw and Bite attacks. He will take a level in White Haired Witch, and take INA for that, too. He finds a Helm of the Mammoth Lord and take INA for that!

The absence of "Special" text in INA does NOT logically imply that you can't take the Feat more than once, just because it does say that for Weapon Focus. Weapon Focus grants an untyped bonus, and untyped bonuses do stack. The "Special" text might be to clarify what you can apply your untyped bonus to.

The absence of "Special Text actually implies the opposite: as CBDunkerson, pointed out, the rules say,

Special wrote:
This line lists special features of the feat, such as, but not limited to, whether or not you can take the feat more than once

This section of the rules says that if there is no Special section that does say you cannot take the Feat more than, once, then it seems you can. The Special section's job (one of its jobs) is to tell you if you can't take a Feat more than once.

Another problem with the idea that you can't take a Feat more than once is that it implies that you can't multiclass where you'd get a bonus feat that you already have, and I just never heard anyone argue convincingly that you can't take a level in Monk if you already took Improved Unarmed Strike as a Feat.

And and also, as CBDunkerson, pointed out, the rules say,

Feats wrote:
If a character has the same feat more than once

That clearly means it is possible for that to happen, and that it can't be against the rules for it to happen.

Liberty's Edge

I think the rules are very clear.

If you have a "feat more than once" (e.g. your Fighter with IUS who takes a Monk level example) "its benefits do not stack unless indicated in the feat's Special line".

If there is no Special line or nothing about having the feat more than once then you CAN have it more than once... it just doesn't DO anything.

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