Elemental fist + Thorn Body, and other unarmed damage boosts


Rules Questions


If a character uses Elemental Fist while under the effect of Thorn body, do the effects stack, granting an additional 2d6 damage (of the appropriate types).

Elemental Fist:

You empower your strike with elemental energy
Prerequisites: Con 13, Wis 13, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +8.
Benefit: When you use Elemental Strike pick one of the following energy types: acid, cold, electricity, or fire. On a successful hit, the attack deals damage normally plus 1d6 points of damage of the chosen type. You must declare that you are using this feat before you make your attack roll (thus a failed attack roll ruins the attempt). You may attempt an elemental fist attack once per day for every four levels you have attained (see Special), and no more than once per round.
Special: A monk of the four winds receives Elemental Fist as a bonus feat at 1st level, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. A monk may attempt an Elemental Fist attack a number of times per day equal to his monk level, plus one more time per day for every four levels he has in classes other than monk.

Thorn Body:

School transmutation; Level alchemist 3, druid 4
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, DF
Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 round/level

This spell causes spines to grow from your exposed skin, damaging creatures that strike you. Any creature striking you with a melee weapon, an unarmed strike, or a natural weapon takes 1d6 points of piercing damage +1 point per caster level (maximum +15). Creatures using melee weapons with reach are unaffected by this spell. Creatures that successfully grapple you take 2d6 points of piercing damage +1 point per caster level (maximum +15). In addition, your natural attacks and unarmed strikes deal an additional 1d6 points of piercing damage.

Thorns created by this spell persist through any new physical shape or form you assume, such as via wildshape or any polymorph effect.

It seems to me like these should stack, but I'm not sure.

On a similar note, Don't the following boosts also stack?

Bristle:

School transmutation; Level druid 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, DF
Range touch
Target one creature
Duration 1 minute/level
Saving Throw Fortitude negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes

You give a creature the ability to redirect a portion of its innate toughness away from its own defense and toward the amount of damage it deals with natural attacks. Each round, as a swift action at the start of its turn, the creature can choose to reduce some or all of its natural armor bonus to AC and gain an enhancement bonus on all damage rolls for natural attacks equal to that amount. The reduction to natural armor, and thus the enhancement bonus on damage rolls, cannot exceed 1 point per 3 caster levels, to a maximum penalty/bonus of –5/+5 at 15th level. A creature cannot reduce its natural armor bonus to less than 0 with this spell. All attacks directed against the creature use its adjusted AC until the start of its next turn, at which time it can choose to modify its AC again or keep it at its current level. Creatures make this decision without any need for conscious thought or reflection; even creatures with no Intelligence score can benefit from this spell, although they always opt for the maximum possible reduction and bonus, regardless of any tactical advantage they might lose.


or
Greater Magic Fang:

School transmutation; Level druid 3, ranger 3
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, DF
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one living creature
Duration 1 hour/level
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes (harmless)

Magic fang gives one natural weapon or unarmed strike of the subject a +1 per four caster levels (maximum +5) enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. The spell can affect a slam attack, fist, bite, or other natural weapon. The spell does not change an unarmed strike's damage from nonlethal damage to lethal damage. This bonus does not allow a natural weapon or unarmed strike to bypass damage reduction aside from magic.

Alternatively, you may imbue all of the creature's natural weapons with a +1 enhancement bonus (regardless of your caster level).

Greater magic fang can be made permanent with a permanency spell.

Wooden Fist:

As a free action, your hands can become as hard as wood, covered in tiny thorns. While you have wooden fists, your unarmed strikes do not provoke attacks of opportunity, deal lethal damage, and gain a bonus on damage rolls equal to 1/2 your cleric level (minimum +1). You can use this ability for a number of rounds per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier. These rounds do not need to be consecutive.

Animal Aspect (Gorilla):

School transmutation (polymorph); Level alchemist 2, magus 2, druid 2, ranger 2, sorcerer/wizard 2
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M/DF (a part of the animal)
Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 minute/level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes (harmless)

You gain some of the beneficial qualities of an animal. Your base form is largely unchanged and your size is unaltered, but some of your body parts are altered. Armor or gear you are wearing adjusts to your new shape for the duration of the spell. When you cast animal aspect, choose one of the following animals to gain the associated benefits. You can only have one animal aspect or greater animal aspect spell active on you at a time.

Gorilla: Your arms become long, flexible, and strong like those of a great ape. Your unarmed damage die type increases by one step, and you gain a +4 competence bonus on combat maneuver checks when making the grapple or reposition combat maneuver.

Strong Jaw:

School transmutation; Level druid 4, ranger 3
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range touch
Target creature touched
Duration 1 minute/level
Saving Throw Fortitude negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes (harmless)

Laying a hand upon an allied creature's jaw, claws, tentacles, or other natural weapons, you enhance the power of that creature's natural attacks. Each natural attack that creature makes deals damage as if the creature were two sizes larger than it actually is. If the creature is already Gargantuan or Colossal-sized, double the amount of damage dealt by each of its natural attacks instead. This spell does not actually change the creature's size; all of its statistics except the amount of damage dealt by its natural attacks remain unchanged.

Not to mention other spells/abilities like enlarge person, wild shape, and beast form that can actually increase the size of the character, and thus their base damage.

If they don't stack, why not? I know that Enhancement bonuses from Bristle and Magic Fang don't stack with each other(the larger is taken instead) but I don't see why the others wouldn't.

Lastly, I wonder if damage to incoming melee attackers stacks from these three effects.

Bramble Armor (Su):
At 6th level, you can cause a host of wooden thorns to burst from your skin as a free action. While bramble armor is in effect, any foe striking you with an unarmed strike or a melee weapon without reach takes 1d6 points of piercing damage + 1 point per two cleric levels you possess. You can use this ability for a number of rounds per day equal to your cleric level. These rounds do not need to be consecutive.

Thorn Body:

School transmutation; Level alchemist 3, druid 4
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, DF
Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 round/level

This spell causes spines to grow from your exposed skin, damaging creatures that strike you. Any creature striking you with a melee weapon, an unarmed strike, or a natural weapon takes 1d6 points of piercing damage +1 point per caster level (maximum +15). Creatures using melee weapons with reach are unaffected by this spell. Creatures that successfully grapple you take 2d6 points of piercing damage +1 point per caster level (maximum +15). In addition, your natural attacks and unarmed strikes deal an additional 1d6 points of piercing damage.

Thorns created by this spell persist through any new physical shape or form you assume, such as via wildshape or any polymorph effect.

Cape of Wasps:

School conjuration (summoning); Level druid 4, witch 4
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range personal
Target you
Duration 1 round/level (D)

You summon a wasp swarm, which fills your space (up to 5 feet by 5 feet) but does not attack you. The dense cloud of vermin gives you partial concealment against ranged attacks. [/b]Any creature that makes a successful melee attack against you takes 2d6 points of swarm damage and poison from the wasp swarm,[/b] but is not affected by the swarm's distraction ability. As a free action on your turn, you may have the swarm cling to you tightly, giving you a fly speed of 20 feet (poor maneuverability); when using the swarm to fly, it does not provide concealment or harm creatures that strike you. You can return the swarm to its protective shape as a free action on your turn.

This would result in a total of 4d6 damage (off the appropriate types) to anyone who attacks the character in melee, not counting the additional damage from cleric levels or poison damage.

There may also be other effects that do the same sort of things I've mentioned. Feel free to discuss those here as well if you can think of them.


Elemental Fist + Thorn Body: Stacks. One does an elemental damage and the other does piercing.

Bristle + Greater Magic Fang: Does not stack. Both are enhancement bonuses. No love here.

Wooden Fist: Untyped bonus to damage. Stacks with everything (except additional uses of Wooden Fist). WARNING: Using this ability may lead to puns in bad taste.

Animal Aspect (Gorilla) + Strong Jaw: Size increases do not stack. But the simian animal aspect does not specify a size change, only that a dice increase happens. So it seems like it does stack. Further research required, hopefully involving monkeys.

Bramble Armor + Thorn Body + Cape of Wasps: Stacks. Some GMs might frown on your thorns on thorns combo, but I would argue that they are two separate effects making for a lot more thorns. Extra swarm damage definitely stacks.


Magical effects that increase your size don't stack, but Lockjaw doesn't increase your size category, only the size category you're treated as for determining the damage dice you deal, similar to the Impact special weapon quality.

Animal Aspect only affects unarmed strikes, while Strong Jaw affects natural weapons. Both spells would stack with one another, since the Animal Aspect ONLY affects unarmed strikes (yay for monk) and Strong Jaw affects manufactured weapons and natural attacks (yay for monks again, who get their unarmed strikes treated as manufactured and natural weapons with regards to spells that enchant bonuses to such attacks.
Animal Aspect
Strong Jaw
Note that Strong Jaw specifically states that it doesn't increase the size category of the natural attack, only the size category of the damage that is done.


What about spells/abilities like enlarge person, wild shape, and beast form that can actually increase the size of the character, and thus their base damage?

Would these stack as well? I recall another thread suggesting they don't, but I didn't quite understand why.

Sczarni

From what I've been told, you can only stack the better One ability/spell that effects your Size or Damage Size Category.

Huge Shape(2 size categories) + Strong Jaw(2 dice size categories, done. :T

Enlarge Person could work on Wild shape, if it wasn't also Polymorph effect and didn't already increase your size. Wild Shape = Beast Form with a different title. Animal Aspect Gorilla is also a Transmutation(Polymorph).

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Edit: Pretty much everything Avianfoo stated!


So damage dice increase from enlarge person/beast form/etc don't stack with Animal Aspect Gorilla?

I know those enlarging spells specifically say "Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack", but Animal Aspect Gorilla doesn't increase size. The Animal Aspect spell text specifically says "Your base form is largely unchanged and your size is unaltered, but some of your body parts are altered."

Sczarni

Enlarge and Gorilla both won't stack becasue they're both Transmutation Polymorph spells.

Edit: "You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell. "

If this helps.

Edit02: "CRB p212 Polymorph Section wrote:
In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.
CRB p278 Enlarge Person wrote:
Multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack.
CRB p335 Righteous Might wrote:
Magical effects that increase size do not stack."


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Kazumetsa Raijin wrote:

In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell. "

That's the important part, since Enlarge Person is Transmutation but not Polymorph subschool.


I see. It makes sense that multiple polymorph spells wouldn't stack.


sk8r_dan_man wrote:

If a character uses Elemental Fist while under the effect of Thorn body, do the effects stack, granting an additional 2d6 damage (of the appropriate types).

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

It seems to me like these should...

All of them stack except for Greater Magic fang and Bristle as they both grant enhancement bonuses. Bonuses of the same type do not stack. As stated in various places throughout the Pathfinder book. You can have all of them plus one of either Bristle OR Greater Magic Fang and they will stack.

Strong Jaw and Gorilla Aspect do not change your size. Yes they stack as well as can be applied to any size altering effect. Remember changing the size category of one of your attacks does not change your size category. Changing your size category includes adjustments to STR DEX CON and size modifiers to AC, CMB/D, Attacks, and Skills.

Gorilla Aspect will not stack with any other polymorph effect. You can have Gorilla Aspect OR Enlarge person, not both.

You asked a whole bunch of questions about a whole bunch of stuff. I hope this addressed the no's and reasons why for each individually.


What about Belt of Thunderous Charging? Could this also stack with everything else(Animal Aspect Gorilla, Strong Jaw, etc.)?

Belt of Thunderous Charging

Price 10,000 gp; Aura moderate transmutation; CL 8th; Weight 1 lb.

An engraving of a charging rhinoceros decorates this thick leather belt. The belt grants its wearer a +2 enhancement bonus to Strength. Treat this as a temporary ability bonus for the first 24 hours the belt is worn.

The belt magnifies the wearer's momentum whenever she charges, granting her a +2 bonus on bull rush and overrun maneuvers. Furthermore, when the wearer makes a charge attack, her melee weapons and natural weapons deal damage as if they were one size category larger than they actually are.


Also, I assume Lead Blades can't be applied to natrual weapons, right?

Lead Blades
School transmutation; Level ranger 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range personal
Target touch
Duration 1 minute/level (D)

Lead blades increases the momentum and density of your melee weapons just as they strike a foe. All melee weapons you are carrying when the spell is cast deal damage as if one size category larger than they actually are. For instance, a Medium longsword normally deals 1d8 points of damage, but it would instead deal 2d6 points of damage if benefiting from lead blades. Only you can benefit from this spell. If anyone else uses one of your weapons to make an attack it deals damage as normal for its size.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Elemental fist + Thorn Body, and other unarmed damage boosts All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.