Witch vs undead, what to do?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


My first session as a witch went like this :

The game started off with us trying to stop a hill giant from making off with a piece of the town's fountain, who turned out to be made out of the ruins of an ancient tower we were searching for. The battle ended with us dealing minimal damage to the giant and the giant drowning in the harbour mostly by DM fiat. During this battle, the only thing i could do was fortune + cackle a crossbow fighter. The melee guys were, understandably, hesistant to get into melee with a hill giant at level 1 (and i didnt want to be within 30 ft of a hill giant anyway)

After finding the remains of the tower, we entered it to discovered a dungeon crawling with undead. None of my spells were effective, and the group's melee combatants easily took them out without suffering a single wound. I didnt feel very effective unfortunately. The one time i did fortune a party member, he didnt even use the re-roll and the party just hid behind a corner and one shotted skeletons with readied attacks as they rounded the corner.

So as it turned out that with my current hexes and spells, i cant do anything except fortune a party member...which isnt very useful against stuff that is easily killed in one round by the group's melee characters, or is immune to mind effects.

And of course there were a lot of jokes about my witch cackling her head off like a crazy woman every round. I have to admit, from a roleplay perspective, it's really silly.

Is there anything i can do against undead?

Hexes that i have : Healing, fortune, cackle (i was going for a healing support vibe).

Also, i really don't want to be trying to use the healing hex as a touch attack.


Fortune on your fighter buddy, and keep cackling.

Or use your spells.

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Healing hex works as CLW on undead, dealing damage to them.


Why not? The healing hex damages undead - it's not a bad usage. If you have a weapon, you could use that: throw clubs or daggers, maybe a crossbow.

Your hp are only 2 behind d8 classes at 1st level, your BAB is at most one behind, so being a little more hands-on at 1st level isn't unthinkable. Use a charge against an already damaged opponent.

Alternatively: aid another; +2 to hit or AC is quite good if you feel like you're not contributing.


I have a -1 modifier to melee due to having str 9. Also an unarmored caster trying to touch undead in melee really isnt a good idea. Since the undead is probably going to attack you next round.

The problem with fortune is that it's a once a day thing really. Sure you can keep cackling. And by RAW you can cackle forever. But realistically speaking, you would only cackle in combat. Most DMs would stop you if you wanted to cackle for a full adventuring day to keep fortune up.

So any multiple encounters per day is going to screw with the "fortune + cackle" strategy. And when your melee combatants are one shotting mooks without fortune, it feels like a waste to use fortune on such an easy encounter.

And im pretty sure most spells on the witch spell list dont do much, if anything to undead...(plus the 2 spell slots at first level dont really help)

Although aid another is a good idea. Im going to have to look that up. Thanks.

Edit : Just checked, aid another in combat only works if you are in position to make a melee attack. So not really a good idea....

Grand Lodge

* Grab Prehensile Hair Hex!
Now you have 10' reach and you use your INT modifier for those touch attacks.

* You can also use your familiar to deliver touch spells, but I don't like the idea until you have Improved Familiar Feat

* Get Misfortune. It isn't a Mind-affecting ability (Charm and Evil-Eye are the only ones which explicity say "This is a Mind-affecting")

* Ward Hex isn't very strong, but the +2 could help sometimes.

* Use your spells for buffing or summoning, like Enlarge Person on the Fighter, Summon Monster I and flank the undeads, etc.

* Buy a crossbow! It's a simple weapon that anyone with low STR can use.


You need to get Misfortune and you need to get it ASAP.
Nothing is immune to it. it is your anti-Golem, Anti-undead, anti-whateveritisyouarefighting attack unless it has a high Willsave. And even then, its not bad to try it out.

I suggest bringing a shield to the game though. A couple sessions of Misfortuning everything in sight and the DM is likely to start throwing things at you. :) (and I don't mean IC!)

-S


Most, yes - but there are spells that might work/do some good:
1st: mage armor, enlarge person, summon monster I(one flank 'n' bite), burning hands, clw(but you already have that in hex), mount(2/hrs per level, should defend itself)

cantrips: spark combined with pints of oil - set them on fire, I think the AC of a square is 5.

you could use a longspear for reach, or throw regular spears for 1d8-1, or javelins for extra range.

A witch with mage armor and healing hex can take a few hits. Enlarge with morningstar is 10 ft reach and 2d6 damage, or light crossbow for 2d6 at a distance... or even better enlarge party martial/archer types.

It's up to your GM, but technically your familiar can spend its time using the aid another action.

If it's tiny; enlarge person with share spells makes it small giving it 5 ft reach and allowing it to flank, if it's small it can already do that, although it's kinda risky in both cases :)

EDIT; Aid another is a good idea, you use a longspear and stand behind the one you're aiding.


When I played a witch, I was always wary of undead and swarms in the early game. I kept Chill Touch or Cure Light Wounds memorized for undead, and Burning Hands in case I faced a Swarm.

I think your Hex choices were pretty bad, but the fact is, you happen to have the very best Hex to face undead with: Healing Hex. You won't use it, though. I think you're doomed to boredom.

I don't even know why you're so scared. My Witch had the same or better AC as everyone else for the first few levels. 16 Dex plus Mage Armor is 17 AC. Not many will beat that early (there were no shield users in our party).


You can always pick up a crossbow and use that. Additionally, later on you may want to look at misfortune hex and spells to use that aren't so focused on mind affecting.

If cackling is silly to you, ask if you can refluff it. Roleplaying cackling for 30 minutes straight can be a little bothersome. At least a little bit.


Chill Touch makes undead flee on a failed save, but you do have to get up close and personal. Is still a decent option.

Mudball is fun if you can get the GM to let you learn it from a goblin witch or something.

Web Bolt is a drow spell, but there's no reason why you couldn't learn it from a drow witch or something.

Ultimately you should be casting summoning spells from the back and then using you hexes to beef up the other players. If combats end too quick for you to drop summonings then don't fret, because a quick battle where no one is hurt was a good battle for you.

Sometimes a little perspective is all one needs.

EDIT: Misfortune hex works fine on everything ever. Get it and cackle away.


Decompose corpse is also not bad against non-skeletal corporeal undead. It has no save, but again it requires a touch

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/decompose-corpse


You can jog for a full hour before you even need to make an endurance check. Cackling for a few hours seems totally reasonable and is a far step from all day. If you don't like Cackle for being silly, though, you might want to change your hexes and your plans. Without cackle, the only offensive hex you really have is slumber, though.

As for dealing with undead... the best steps are done before you even start playing. Choosing Samsaran race for mystic past life, going Gravewalker archetype, or picking the right patron.

Beyond that... it depends on spells known. Cure Light and your healing hex hurt undead, though you don't want to get close to them, understandably. There's some other spells that could be decent w/ some levels but not so much at level 1... Obscuring Mist would give concealment for the party, at least. It is tough to find ways to deal with undead early on.


Why is everyone acting like the witch can't get close to bad guys? They have basically the same AC with Mage armor and only a couple fewer HP. What is the fear here? Pathfinder finished the work 3rd edition started to kill the "fragile caster" stereotype.


Well, not so much at first level, but witches are significantly more fragile than wizards in general, who have spells like Mirror Image and class features like Sudden Shift to keep them out of trouble.

Wizards definitely are not fragile, though. I do think it's not that big a deal to go touching some undead, if nothing else when they come to you first, don't withdraw, healing touch them.


The downside with mage armor is that it only lasts for 1 hour at level 1. Its quite easy to go over that while exploring a dungeon.


One thing I would point out is witches are far better at debuffing the buffing. Because of the 1 per day per target criteria for most hexes, you can use them alot more on enemies (which usually change each encounter) then allies. And evil eye and misfortune work on undead just fine. I would ask your dm about switching out fortune for one of those two if I were you.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

You are also a full caster. You mentioned your spells were not working that well against undead. What spells/patron do you have?

If you post your build we may be able to offer more tailored advice. Also is your home campaign wealth restrictive? I only consider the healing hex if I am going with a healing witch or if the campaign severely limits magical items. Otherwise I'd dip into the party collective treasure pool and buy pick up a wand of cure light wounds for healing. Or if he allows crafting (assuming it's a home game), then a custom, command-word wondrous item of cure light wounds.

As for the hill giant encounter, that (I hope) was just a plot hook. I'm inferring you are level 1, and that would have been a TPK CR encounter, several times over.

But some general advice:
When my big guns don't work directly on the foe I drop to the usual standbys such as buffing my party and summoning. You have access to many very good spells (again unless your GM isn't allowing you to acquire new spells.)

My picks for level 1 witch spells:
Ear-Piercing Scream (damage plus daze, quite useful.) Undead are not immune to daze(status effect) Undead are immune to the daze spell though because it is listed as mind-effecting.
Ill Omen (granted not so hot against undead)
Enlarge Person (almost every fighter will thank you.)
Mage Armor

My witch (human, nothing special) is currently level 5 in Pathfinder Society. Last big fight was at sea, versus acrobatic monk-like sailor mercenaries. I buffed while they are at a distance and then timed my summons (air elemental) to just before they got into board. He's also faced undead(and constructs, plants, elementals) on numerous occasions, most memorable was 4 advanced ghouls on a cliff (only 20 feet up but still) in a chokepoint. He spent most of the encounter using fortune and guidance. (Fortune+Cackle, then Guidance+Cackle). Giving the Gunslinger a double attack roll with a +1 on top. He was very grateful. Especially when he got to reroll a jam. :)

If you are using Fortune on your party and the party is not taking advantage of it, there may be other issues regarding coordination and teamwork.

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