Trench Fighter+Gunslinger; Gun Training + Trench Warfare?


Rules Questions


3 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

My question is; does the Gunslinger's Gun Training class feature stack with the Trench Fighter archetypes Trench Warfare? Specifically, the +Dex to damage.

d20pfsrd wrote:

Gun Training (Ex)

Starting at 5th level, a gunslinger can select one specific type of firearm (such as an axe musket, blunderbuss, musket, or pistol). She gains a bonus equal to her Dexterity modifier on damage rolls when firing that type of firearm. Furthermore, when she misfires with that type of firearm, the misfire value of that firearm increases by 2 instead of 4. Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), the gunslinger picks up another type of firearm, gaining these bonuses for those types as well.

d20pfsrd wrote:

Trench Warfare (Ex)

Starting at 3rd level, a trench fighter can select one specific type of firearm (such as a machine gun, revolver, or rifle). He gains a bonus equal to his Dexterity modifier on damage rolls when firing that type of firearm. Every 4 levels thereafter (7th, 11th, and 15th), the trench fighter picks up another type of firearm, gaining these bonuses for those types as well. Furthermore, when behind partial, normal, or improved cover, a trench fighter gains an additional +2 AC bonus from the cover.

This ability replaces armor training 1, 2, 3, and 4.

The abilities are worded very similarly, but have different names and are thus different abilities. Would a Gunslinger 5/Trench Fighter 3 who'd chosen pistols as his weapon of choice get 2x Dex to damage rolls with pistols?

Grand Lodge

I am curious as well.

Also, if anyone has experience with this archetype, please visit here to share your experience. Even just ideas are welcome.


Pathfinder SRD wrote:


Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus granted applies.

The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don't generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works. Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.

They are both 'untyped' bonuses that are from different sources (Gun Training, Trench Warfare) therefore, RAW, they stack.

Until errata that is.

Grand Lodge

ThatEvilGuy wrote:
Pathfinder SRD wrote:


Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus granted applies.

The important aspect of bonus types is that two bonuses of the same type don't generally stack. With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works. Bonuses without a type always stack, unless they are from the same source.

They are both 'untyped' bonuses that are from different sources (Gun Training, Trench Warfare) therefore, RAW, they stack.

Until errata that is.

To play devil's advocate, do both bonuses come from the same source - dexterity - and hence do not stack?


Is this really the only thread concerning this combo?

Realistically, these probably were not intended to stack.
However, it's entirely clear that they do since they share the language of Paladin's Divine Grace that converts the stat bonus to untyped... (although, even if they didn't, it drags in the whole "what's the source" debacle currently in progress, especially since the abilities are not 100% identical)

Thankfully, Trench Fighter is from an AP, and easily banned if you're not using it.


I think it's clear they weren't intended to stack. Add to it that trench fighter isn't even intended to be generally available to players as the archetype assumes a "Guns Everywhere" setting.

Quote:

Firearms in Your Campaign

Firearms and gunslingers are not for every campaign, and even if you are excited about introducing firearms into your campaign, you should still make a decision about how commonplace they are. The following are broad categories of firearm rarity and the rules that govern them. Pathfinder's world of Golarion uses the rules for emerging guns, which is also the default category of gun rarity detailed in this Pathfinder RPG supplement.

No Guns: If you do not want guns in your campaign, simply don't allow the rules that follow. The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game plays perfectly well without them.

Very Rare Guns: Early firearms are rare; advanced firearms, the gunslinger class, the Amateur Gunslinger feat, and archetypes that use the firearm rules do not exist in this type of campaign. Firearms are treated more like magic items—things of wonder and mystery—rather than like things that are mass-produced. Few know the strange secrets of firearm creation. Only NPCs can take the Gunsmithing feat.

Emerging Guns: Firearms become more common. They are mass-produced by small guilds, lone gunsmiths, dwarven clans, or maybe even a nation or two—the secret is slipping out, and the occasional rare adventurer uses guns. The baseline gunslinger rules and the prices for ammunition given in this chapter are for this type of campaign. Early firearms are available, but are relatively rare. Adventurers who want to use guns must take the Gunsmithing feat just to make them feasible weapons. Advanced firearms may exist, but only as rare and wondrous items—the stuff of high-level treasure troves.

Commonplace Guns: While still expensive and tricky to wield, early firearms are readily available. Instead of requiring the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat, all firearms are martial weapons. Early firearms and their ammunition cost 25% of the amounts listed in this book, but advanced firearms and their ammunition are still rare and cost the full price to purchase or craft.

Guns Everywhere: Guns are commonplace. Early firearms are seen as antiques, and advanced firearms are widespread. Firearms are simple weapons, and early firearms, advanced guns, and their ammunition are bought or crafted for 10% of the cost listed in this chapter. The gunslinger loses the gunsmith class feature and instead gains the gun training class feature at 1st level.

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