Elven Curved Blades


Advice

51 to 63 of 63 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>

Keep in mind that the to hit penalty for two weapon fighting grows progressively worse with each feat and each additional attack. Two weapon fighting gives you an extra attack at the cost of a feat and a -2 penalty for all your attacks. ITWF gives you another attack with -5 penalty for that attack only, and GTFW gives you a third attack at -10 for that attack only.

GTWF in particular is an extremely sub-par feat.


Kudaku wrote:

Keep in mind that the to hit penalty for two weapon fighting grows progressively worse with each feat and each additional attack. Two weapon fighting gives you an extra attack at the cost of a feat and a -2 penalty for all your attacks. ITWF gives you another attack with -5 penalty for that attack only, and GTFW gives you a third attack at -10 for that attack only.

GTWF in particular is an extremely sub-par feat.

I Know...it is only a example.

Imagine a rogue hitting with a one hand or two handed weapon: +20/+15/+10

Now using Two weapon fighting +18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8..i don´t see how twf can be worse. but i agree with GTWF.


Leonardo Trancoso wrote:
LazarX wrote:

It's more important to hit with a rogue than it is to hit twice... because if you set yourself up properly, your damage is going to be from your Sneak Attack. Missing more often with two blades, is inferior to hitting more often than one.

Your main concerns are denying those dex bonuses, you'll be doing it via flank,and doing it via bluff. And if you can get a consistent partner, teamup feats will help as well.

But the penality is only -2 for 2x the number of attacks. What is better: 3 hits with +20 or 6 with +18?

And you don´t need a consistent partner to flank, you have the surprise round, the hight initiative for the first round, hunters surprise, scroll/wands with summon monsters (1d4+1) to support your sneak attacks, and all the groups have other melee combatant.

The problem is, like I mentioned up-thread, it's not going to be just a -2 to hit. Needing to pay twice as much for your weapons is going to cut into your gold supply substantially (So it's either two much weaker weapons, or having far less gold for everything else), and you need to sink a bunch of feats into two-weapon fighting that other characters could spend on buffing their to-hit, their defenses, or anything else you can use a feat for.


Leonardo Trancoso:

Let me give you an example of what Chengar is talking about. We have to assume both Rogue's get the same amount of gold.

Two-Hander has a +2 Greatsword for 8k and a +2 STR Belt for 4k for a total bonus of +3 at 12k gold

Two-Weaponer, gets a two +1 short swords for 4k and a +2 DEX belt for 4k, for a total bonus of +2 at 8k gold. Sure he's got an extra 4k but can't really spend it on anything.

Now the Two-Weaponer is -3 when compared to the Two-Hander, and this only gets worse as the cost to increase weapons and belts goes up.

As far as the advantages of the ECB, I made a switch hitter Ranger with an ECB that I liked.


that's not necessarily a fair comparison since a rogue could then spend the feats he's not using on TWF, ITWF and GTWF. There's also the fact that his weapon budget (which typically makes the biggest dent in your WBL) has to be doubled since you're enchanting two different weapons.

So instead of
+20 / +15 / +10
and
+18 / +18 / +13 / +13 / +8 / +8

We have One Weapon Fighting
+26 / +21 / +16 (Weapon Focus, +5 weapon), and we still have two free feats we can put to good use elsewhere. I'm not terribly experienced at optimizing rogues but I'm sure there are some good options out there.

Vs Two Weapon Fighting
+21 / +21 / +15 / +15 / +10 / +10 (+3 / +3 weapon, no room for weapon finesse)

Add to that that both builds have advantages and disadvantages. For instance the 1w rogue has an easier time dealing with damage reduction (higher + weapon), and is ahead of the TWF'er if he is restricted to a standard action attack.

The 2w rogue has an easier time dealing with enemies that have high miss chance, and is absolutely lethal if he can unload full attacks on enemies with low AC.

Now, these examples are explicitly written to showcase the differences - there's nothing stopping you from fitting WF into the TWF build and you can certainly make a twf build that's 100% viable. I'm just trying to highlight some of the downsides of TWF.


Yeah i understand...

I don´t mean to say that TWF is better than one weapon.. it is just if you make a TWF char you will make it works despite of the penalities, you will role-play to get weapons, buffs e etc. You spend gold in the second weapon instead of armors or cloaks. You are focused in damage, and i believe TWF will do more damage.

For other side one weapon rogue will be more consistent in general.


Leonardo: play a fighter, it seems much better for what you want. static damage over pure numbers of dice. the dpr is comperable in most cases.

Shadow Lodge

If you want more attacks, but don't want to spend the feats and gold for TWF, may I suggest Boots of Speed? Its only for 10 rounds a day, but it still is an extra attack at your highest BAB, for only 12k. If you are going fighter/rogue, and you are like me and say screw the armor restrictions with rogue abilities, you could get an additional 10 rounds of haste with Mithral Full Plate of Speed, or just a speed weapon if you feel like blowing that gold. Maybe not optimal, but still, to some degree, effective. To the Elven Curved Blade, I don't think there are any deities with that as favored weapon, but there are a LOT of gods to look through. It is great for a rogue with highish strength and high Dex. You can't make good use of TWF unless you are a 2nd level gestalt titan mauler/urban barbarian/rogue, (not sure if you can do that with gestalt though) and you still are going to be taking a -6 penalty with attack rolls (-4 TWF and -2 Jotungrip).

@Soul: Its poor character to tell someone else how to play their characters.


ArmouredMonk13 wrote:

If you want more attacks, but don't want to spend the feats and gold for TWF, may I suggest Boots of Speed? Its only for 10 rounds a day, but it still is an extra attack at your highest BAB, for only 12k. If you are going fighter/rogue, and you are like me and say screw the armor restrictions with rogue abilities, you could get an additional 10 rounds of haste with Mithral Full Plate of Speed, or just a speed weapon if you feel like blowing that gold. Maybe not optimal, but still, to some degree, effective. To the Elven Curved Blade, I don't think there are any deities with that as favored weapon, but there are a LOT of gods to look through. It is great for a rogue with highish strength and high Dex. You can't make good use of TWF unless you are a 2nd level gestalt titan mauler/urban barbarian/rogue, (not sure if you can do that with gestalt though) and you still are going to be taking a -6 penalty with attack rolls (-4 TWF and -2 Jotungrip).

@Soul: Its poor character to tell someone else how to play their characters.

there needs to be a sarcasm font, i wasnt actually intending to tell him what to play, also, if i am not mistaken thats been what this entire thread has been about for 20 posts, one group telling the other why their build is less viable than another. my point was that if you want to do as much damage per attack with as many to-hits as possible you should probably not play a rogue. it seems that the rogue, while having great dpr potential, has more counters than nearly any other class.

Digital Products Assistant

Removed an unhelpful post.


Ferious Thune wrote:
Soul wrote:
improved feint, off hand, iterative, iterative, hastened attack. 4 sneak attacks against flat-footed AC. i dont think its that bad personally.

This needs to be Improved Two-Weapon Feint. Improved Feint just makes feint a move action, which means no full attacks. Two-Weapon Feint makes feint part of a full attack, and Improved Two-Weapon Feint makes it apply to all of your attacks until the end of your round. But yes, it works pretty well. I've got a ninja that will realize this build at 9th level through careful planning and saving combat trick to be able to take Improved Two-Weapon Fighting at 8th so I'll meet the prereqs for Improved Two-Weapon Feint at 9th. There's still a problem hitting with iteratives, even against flat-footed AC, because a lot of enemies don't have much dex to begin with. Weapon Focus (or the weapon training rogue talent) and anything else you can do to improve your to hit will help.

It is a long feat chain, baut it allows a rogue/ninja to stand toe to toe with an enemy and still get sneak attacks off. Of course, boosting AC becomes important then, too.

All of that being said, Elven Curved Blade is not a good choice for a TWF build. Kukris or Wakisashis are probably ideal for a ninja. For a rogue, taking the EWP sets you back quite a bit, especially if you aren't human. So dagger or shortsword might be better. I did it with fighting fans, because that was the character concept, and with most of the damage coming from sneak attack, the base damage die didn't matter much. The +2 to feint from the fans being Distracting weapons helps, too.

Now Elven Curved Blade for a two-handed fighting rogue might be a good choice, though it still costs a proficiency or a dip into a class with martial proficiency (if you're an elf). For a ninja, Katana would probably be a better choice.

1st rapier is only considered light for purpose of weapon finess thus kukri wakisashi wins over dealing with tohit penalty is easy fighter 3 or 4 with gloves of dueling that negates the 2wp penslty +3 hit +5 dmg due to wespon spec additionsl +1 for higher bab or 8 weapon master for extra +2/+1 gwf with gloves of dueling gives u weapon specialization +5 to hit +6 dmg both main and offhand hands 2 weapon fighting is the wsy to go for rogues if anyone does the math specislly with imp 2 wespon feint etc. for mythic the 8 lvl fighter becomed even better due to extrs +2 to hit from mithyc wespon focus/spec


Belcedric wrote:
Ferious Thune wrote:
Soul wrote:
improved feint, off hand, iterative, iterative, hastened attack. 4 sneak attacks against flat-footed AC. i dont think its that bad personally.

This needs to be Improved Two-Weapon Feint. Improved Feint just makes feint a move action, which means no full attacks. Two-Weapon Feint makes feint part of a full attack, and Improved Two-Weapon Feint makes it apply to all of your attacks until the end of your round. But yes, it works pretty well. I've got a ninja that will realize this build at 9th level through careful planning and saving combat trick to be able to take Improved Two-Weapon Fighting at 8th so I'll meet the prereqs for Improved Two-Weapon Feint at 9th. There's still a problem hitting with iteratives, even against flat-footed AC, because a lot of enemies don't have much dex to begin with. Weapon Focus (or the weapon training rogue talent) and anything else you can do to improve your to hit will help.

It is a long feat chain, baut it allows a rogue/ninja to stand toe to toe with an enemy and still get sneak attacks off. Of course, boosting AC becomes important then, too.

All of that being said, Elven Curved Blade is not a good choice for a TWF build. Kukris or Wakisashis are probably ideal for a ninja. For a rogue, taking the EWP sets you back quite a bit, especially if you aren't human. So dagger or shortsword might be better. I did it with fighting fans, because that was the character concept, and with most of the damage coming from sneak attack, the base damage die didn't matter much. The +2 to feint from the fans being Distracting weapons helps, too.

Now Elven Curved Blade for a two-handed fighting rogue might be a good choice, though it still costs a proficiency or a dip into a class with martial proficiency (if you're an elf). For a ninja, Katana would probably be a better choice.

1st rapier is only considered light for purpose of weapon finess thus kukri wakisashi wins over dealing with tohit penalty is easy fighter...

Dude. This thread is 3 years old.

51 to 63 of 63 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / Elven Curved Blades All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in Advice