Goblin Squad Member
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First of all, let me introduce myself - long time MMO player since EQ 1, and I have played many MMO's mainly as a guild's main tank.
On to my question/suggestion: So, we know that attacking another player in PVP, we can loot things from them. We also know that since every player will know that, they will want to store their things in some sort of bank/vault in their settlement or a city.
Here's the fun stuff: My suggestion would be that if a settlement is raided, that a portion of the money in the vault could be raided and random items could be grabbed up to X number of them. In the future, once kingdoms have been established, sacking a royal vault could be even more worthwhile.
- Additional caveat- one would have to have skills in cracking safes/vaults (additional skill beyond lock picking) and it should take some time to do so... so if one was interrupted or killed in the process of cracking the safe, the process would start over.
I know we want deterrents to PVP... we don't want everyone just running around all willy-nilly killing for loot, but if the immense challenge of attacking a settlement was overcome, a nice reward would be great.
Thoughts?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Welcome Kegerator,
We have similar interests and hopes for the siege mechanic. I had asked the very same thing in the Community Members Round Table in the Gobbocast.com Podcast #9.
When a settlement's walls have been breeched, can a group (associated with the attack or third party) take the bank or auction house and loot them?
I think part of that answer will be that gold in banks can not. The reason being, gold is not a physical item in PFO. Yes you gain gold from killing mobs in PVE, and it is traded for times in the market, but it can not be looted.
The real prize will be the Auction House. Auction Houses will be localized, so that means that the items are physically at that location and therefore should be possible to loot.
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Goblin Squad Member
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When a settlement's walls have been breeched, can a group (associated with the attack or third party) take the bank or auction house and loot them?
[...]
The real prize will be the Auction House. Auction Houses will be localized, so that means that the items are physically at that location and therefore should be possible to loot.
Hehe I can just imagine the huuuge 'run on the bank' that would follow a declaration of war in a weak settlement. I would expect that the raiders of the Auction House at the end of the siege find a completely empty storage vault. (unless there is a mechanism preventing cancellation of ongoing sales)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hehe I can just imagine the huuuge 'run on the bank' that would follow a declaration of war in a weak settlement. I would expect that the raiders of the Auction House at the end of the siege find a completely empty storage vault. (unless there is a mechanism preventing cancellation of ongoing sales)
Yes, but then they will now have many items of value on their person, impossible to thread it all, and an easier target to loot than the structure of an auction house.
But, the chaos that will reign as the settlement is falling will be delicious and profitable.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Another option may be (I hope) to attack the settlement and breech the walls, not with the intent to destroy or co-opt it, but rather to raid the auction house. After all, you don't want to kill the goose that lays the golden egg, but if the goose doesn't offer you the occasional egg when requested, then it may be necessary to offer up corrective discipline.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Another option may be (I hope) to attack the settlement and breech the walls, not with the intent to destroy or co-opt it, but rather to raid the auction house. After all, you don't want to kill the goose that lays the golden egg, but if the goose doesn't offer you the occasional egg when requested, then it may be necessary to offer up corrective discipline.
True Sintaqx, besides we in The UnNamed Company are not in the business of taking over settlements and then having to manage them. Pillaging is our goal, burning if it is necessary and then move on to our next meaningful player interaction.
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Goblin Squad Member
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On to my question/suggestion: So, we know that attacking another player in PVP, we can loot things from them. We also know that since every player will know that, they will want to store their things in some sort of bank/vault in their settlement or a city.
Here's the fun stuff: My suggestion would be that if a settlement is raided, that a portion of the money in the vault could be raided and random items could be grabbed up to X number of them. In the future, once kingdoms have been established, sacking a royal vault could be even more worthwhile.
I'm sure there will be variations of this possible:
The image of burning down a wizard's library went through my head: Is that something that will/could happen, if perhaps a settlement was invaded?Your personal vault within a settlement is absolutely in danger if the settlement is attacked.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Taking a Settlement could happen several ways.
Coup (Inserting a team of people to slowly gather a grass-roots army within the settlement itself to oust the controlling faction while your forces help the locals 'liberate' themselves.)
Empty Throne (Assassinate everyone in charge, and keep doing so until they run out of resources to hold you at bay when they try to replace their lost/pilfered/decayed items to defend themselves. This can be a double-edged sword, however. Shades of Galt, plus possibly beggaring yourself in the process!)
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH! (Throw enough bodies at the walls till you can walk over them and take the fight directly to the enemy, then take their stuff the old fashioned way.)
Chess-Master (Take over a vital structure one at a time and slowly force the defenders into either yielding or taking other courses of actions that can only lead them deeper into defeat for a temporary victory. Will likely require staggering amounts of skill from the Attacking Players, however.)
Siege (Another oldie, but a goodie. Still, has the downside of locking your army down outside the walls of a fortified settlement, which means your own lands are under-defended in the process, but if you try to leave, you have a pissed off and well-supplied army ready to shank you the moment you turn your back. Imagine the hilarity of two armies missing each other and sieging each other's under-defended capitals.)
Economic Warfare (Much like the Chess-Master and Coup, but through economic shenanigans you start to choke the local industry to the point the Defenders can no longer afford to pay their soldiers and their Development Indexes really start to crumble. At this case it's a mop-up operation if you can keep it running long enough.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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This seems like a textbook case of "Wouldn't it be cool if settlement storage could be attacked" leads to "Nobody stores anything valuable in PC settlement storage."
Not just settlement storage, but items on auction house as well. So you are forced to make a choice, to leave your items of value in a safer bank or carry them on your person?
How often do you believe that a settlement will be sacked?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I am more of the thoughts that a well orchestrated action could pilfer a settlement's storage. No sacking, no razing, just plain old thievery.
For more likely for people to keep their belongings there no matter the chances, that just makes them all the more likely to defend it that much more fiercely.
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Goblin Squad Member
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All, but if you have little in the way of material goods and merely carry a large stash of coins/currency, then you're just a tastier treat for the Bandits.
It can also lead to the highly risky path of storing your own wealth in your residence/place of work/hideout, which might save it from being lost during a Siege or hostile takeover, but then you have to risk that it will never be stolen by thieves, or you will have to expend considerable wealth and resources protecting it, either via traps or hired NPCs, which will make the people around you wonder what's so vital in your house that it needs to be protected ...
I love catches like that.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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All, but if you have little in the way of material goods and merely carry a large stash of coins/currency, then you're just a tastier treat for the Bandits.
It can also lead to the highly risky path of storing your own wealth in your residence/place of work/hideout, which might save it from being lost during a Siege or hostile takeover, but then you have to risk that it will never be stolen by thieves, or you will have to expend considerable wealth and resources protecting it, either via traps or hired NPCs, which will make the people around you wonder what's so vital in your house that it needs to be protected ...
I love catches like that.
Or store it in an NPC settlement, which has the effect of discouraging commerce in PC settlements.
I think it's a very reasonable handwave to allow a settlement to change hands without the residents of that settlement losing what they have in storage- even if it is now very difficult for them to take it out of storage.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This seems like a textbook case of "Wouldn't it be cool if settlement storage could be attacked" leads to "Nobody stores anything valuable in PC settlement storage."
I would disagree with this point. There are clear pro's and cons to all types of storage.
1. NPC storage:
Pros: 100% foolproof.
Cons: Supplies nowhere near where you need them. Want to add a new building to your town, load up the wagons, and get ready to cross everything between you and the NPC town via storage 2, want to go fight a dragon, get ready for a 10 minute hike to go get your weapons and armor. OR worse, your settlement is being attacked, the enemy is at your gate ready to tear down the walls. The last thing you want to be doing at this point is "OK everyone lets make a 10 minute trip and pick up our defenses", then come back, fight the enemy outside of our walls on our way back in (assuming we still have walls at that time). etc...
2. On hand storage (Including backpacks and wagons):
Pro: What you need is always literally right next to you.
Pro: What you are holding will most likely be 100% safe while you are not playing. (this most likely does not apply to wagons etc... but it might.
Con's: What you have can be lost at a moments notice, any death can take everything unthreaded from you at a moments notice.
3. Settlement storage:
Pros: Safe from ragtag bandits etc... Taking out a settlement requires an army, and resources from a settlement, meaning any opponent who wishes to take them cannot just poof into the clouds if you want it back, or if they sack too many settlements and thus everyone gangs up for a countermeasure to avoid themselves being next.
Pro: Goods nearby, settlements are likely to be out in the wilderness, thus unlike NPC towns, there is higher value things to do nearby, better things to harvest, escalations etc... you are jogging back in fourth from the town nearby the escalation rather than jogging back and forth all the way back to the safe NPC lands.
Con: Not absolutely safe, as there is still some danger of said armies etc...
4. Midway storages: IE storages set up at harvesting sites or possibly inbetween a dungoen you just cleared and town etc...
Pros: Able to be set up right where you need them,
Cons: Needs active protection, somewhere just above personal in safety rating.
Now when we do something like individual theft etc... IE a ragtag nameless faceless group can sometimes steal from settlement storage (well beyond social engineering methods, IE someone you explicitly trusted taking them after a 2 year con), then the pendulum starts to swing. But under the assumption that it takes a literal war effort to raid settlement storage, than I could see all 4 of these storage methods having solid value, and being used to varying extents.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I. Have no problem with resource looting since there are many ways to protect yourself. The first and best is to keep your goods in a well defended pc settlement. The second is to maintain a nestegg of critical resources in npc storage. Another idea is to spread your wealth throughout wilderness chaches via hideouts.
Since I've heard about mmorpgs with faction wars like Aion in Asia server which led to only one huge faction pwning the rest two, I agree with the nobody will store any goodies (if they aren't in the most powerful faction). The powerful will be more powerful with all utilities available, the weak will be in constant danger and if they want the game to be bearable they'll need to join the most powerful faction or having their all goodies robbed at any moment.
I think I've read about EVE also having similar situation (though not as severe)on this forum before?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I find it difficult to believe a motley band of rogues as described in "The Unnamed Company" to have the wherewithal to sack a properly defended settlement. As I understand the settlement PvP mechanics, (1)the PvP window must be open, (2) the attacking forces siege equipment must have been able to breach the settlement's perimeter, (3) the NPC guards defeated, (4) the PC players also defeated, and (5) the specific location opened (be it bank vault, auction house, warehouse, etc).
Of course we will all see these mechanics develop together and will learn how to attack and defend together as well.
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Goblin Squad Member
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And as was said in Milestone 2 Update:
@Areks - you should think of a Settlement structure as more of a logical object than a physical one. You won't be able to lock the doors and bar entry. People will find ways to get in.
Therefore @Bluddwolf, @HalfOrc with a Hat of Disguise and @Sintaqx, there may not be walls to breach. Unless you form a wall of bodies.
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Goblin Squad Member
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And as was said in Milestone 2 Update:@Areks - you should think of a Settlement structure as more of a logical object than a physical one. You won't be able to lock the doors and bar entry. People will find ways to get in.Therefore @Bluddwolf, @HalfOrc with a Hat of Disguise and @Sintaqx, there may not be walls to breach. Unless you form a wall of bodies.
Gaining entry, IE slipping a few spies, an assasain etc... is one thing. Capturing/destroying a settlement is a completely different thing. I expect the former to be doable via a handful of interested individuals. Capturing/destroying has been described as taking an actual seige unless I am mistaken. Stealing from secure storage I would expect to take a seige.
In the early stages of the game, most settlements will not be properly defended.
This is actually pretty in line with developers statements. IE settlements will be very difficult to take outside of their PVP window (IE the window in which NPC aid is lessened), opening that window wider is needed for the more advanced development, which people won't have early on.
In the early stages of the game, most settlements will not be properly defended.This is actually pretty in line with developers statements. IE settlements will be very difficult to take outside of their PVP window (IE the window in which NPC aid is lessened), opening that window wider is needed for the more advanced development, which people won't have early on.
In addition in the early stages of the game taking settlements will not even be possible. From the blogs settlement warfare isn't scheduled to be in the game till just before early enrollment. Therefore sacking storage due to ill prepared settlements is probably not going to happen.
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Goblin Squad Member
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In addition in the early stages of the game taking settlements will not even be possible. From the blogs settlement warfare isn't scheduled to be in the game till just before early enrollment. Therefore sacking storage due to ill prepared settlements is probably not going to happen.
In the early stages of the game, most settlements will not be properly defended.This is actually pretty in line with developers statements. IE settlements will be very difficult to take outside of their PVP window (IE the window in which NPC aid is lessened), opening that window wider is needed for the more advanced development, which people won't have early on.
It is worth noting, settlements themselves aren't anticipated either, if I recall there was a quote saying the first PC settlements are expected to pop up at either 3 or 6 months in. So we are more talking forts for storage etc...
indeed settlements wont be in at the start...but settlements at 6 months and settlement pvp near open enrollment means that settlements have a year to sort themselves out. I doubt there will be weak targets at that point or if there are those groups who believe they need more than one settlement may already have them marked as ripe for plucking
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CEO, Goblinworks
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The implementation of territorial warfare will almost certainly mark the transition from Early to Open Enrollment. It requires so many basic systems to be implemented and for the economy and population to have developed to a significant degree. So think a timeframe of between 12 and 18 months.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The implementation of territorial warfare will almost certainly mark the transition from Early to Open Enrollment.
That was the impression I've had for a while now. I'm very curious if Mass Combat will be implemented at the same time, or before. Even if it's not yet necessary because we won't be able to conquer another Settlement, it would still be cool to roll around in formation taking out the trash :)