Christina Stiles Contributor |
137ben |
Is it just that people want awesome high-level adventures, period, or that they want high-level adventures that jump off from existing Paizo APs?
While I certainly can't speak for everyone, I mainly just want high-level content in the game.
Partly, this is for the selfish reason that I don't currently use adventure paths at all. I write my own plots, and mix modules in. I'm not a big fan of having a predetermined plot set from levels 1 to 20...
as a GM, I'd like the freedom based on characters and player motivation to adjust my own plots, and choose which modules to insert.
Even if I were to just use published modules, I could select a 1st level module, wait to see how the PCs developed, and then choose the most appropriate second module based on the group. I can usually add plot and connections between modules to give some continuity throughout the campaign.
However, I can only easily do that because the modules are intended to be stand-alone. I find it much easier to add stuff to the beginning and end of a stand-alone module to lead into the next module (or the next adventure I write for my group).
With an AP, due to the continuity, I feel like I'm locking myself in to a "package deal" of 6 modules at once. I find it much harder to organically bring the players into the 5th part of an AP if they haven't gone through the first four. The later parts of an AP, therefore, are all-or-nothing: I either can't use them or have to use the earlier parts.
So what concerns me about a "part 7" to adventure paths is that I doubt I would be able to use it, at least not without also slowly going through the previous six parts. So I'd prefer to have either
a) more character options/monsters/game content/source-books for higher levels, to make it easier for GMs to design high-epic level adventures, and/or
b)high-epic level stand-alone modules.
I do recognize, however, that designing a module for high level adventurers without knowledge of what the characters have done beforehand is considerably harder than writing a low-level module, or writing with knowledge of the PC's previous adventuring careers. So I can't really hold it against designers for not making enough good high-level modules.
gbonehead Owner - House of Books and Games LLC |
Well, all of this is why I'd viewed getting a part 7 of 6 subscription as a pie-in-the sky activity. If I gave the impression that I thought it could be imminent, alas, I have no such misconception.
James has said a number of times that they're pretty much flat-out with their current load of products, and the last thing I want them to do is bite off more than they can chew. I still strongly believe that implementing high-level material as an optional "part 7" subscription closely tied to an Adventure Path would be a good fit for their product line. It would have a built-in audience - the people who just finished said adventure path, and would have a wealth of plot and backstory to draw upon. I think one key element is that it be a separate subscription item from the main Adventure Path line, thus not putting at risk a good chunk of Paizo's bread and butter (obviously I have no idea precisely how much, but it can't be insignificant).
In comparison to something like a part 7 of 6, stand-alone high level modules have a lot of challenges to overcome. They don't have the backstory of a 6-part adventure path, so they are required to lay a lot of groundwork and are likely very, very hard to make generally applicable enough to appeal to a wide range of player groups - and all this in a relatively small page count.
Don't get me wrong, the high-level modules they've printed so far are excellent, but I believe they're stretching the edges of what's possible in that format. I know when I wanted to run high-level events at conventions, I had a hell of a time presenting something that would make sense in a 4-hour slot, even though I had years of high-level material available from my home campaign - too much of it required buy-in to the campaign world, something that's quite difficult in a short format like that.
My only hope is that when (not if) Paizo grows a bit more, they'll seriously consider a separate subscription for Adventure Path Epilogues.
James Jacobs Creative Director |
It's also important to realize that the concept of a hard END point to an AP is important. If we start doing part 7 expansions... then how long before folks want us to do part 8?
Again, I love the fact that folks want more, but the fact that we only have time and resources to do 6 part adventures is key... and giving those six parts a good, solid end point is part of what makes them a whole, rather than something that kind of trails off or is extended out over a nebulous amount of time.
As for licensing them out... not super interested there. The Adventure Paths are arguably Paizo's soul. I'm kinda protective of them for that reason.
Vic Wertz Chief Technical Officer |
My only hope is that when (not if) Paizo grows a bit more, they'll seriously consider a separate subscription for Adventure Path Epilogues.
There are limits to how big a company we want to be, in terms of number of employees, and we're approaching them.
There's also a limit to the number of Pathfinder products our market will *accept* in a calendar year, and I believe we're approaching that as well.
I totally wouldn't mind seeing an epilogue to a popular AP turn up in the Modules line now and then, but another line? I just don't see it happening.
Erik Mona Publisher, Chief Creative Officer |
Thanael |
mikeawmids wrote:Try Way of the Wicked from Fire Mountain Games, that is a third party AP in six parts (written for the Pathfinder system, but not set in Golarion) that will take players from 1st level to 20th.I've looked at it and considered a purchase unfortunately it would be unlikely to get play at my table due to the evil PCs component. Not that I have any problem running such a game it's just one of my players in particular really isn't into playing evil characters.
I do appreciate the suggestion though and if they were to put out a heroic AP of level 1-20 I'd be all over it.
- Torger
Fire Mountain Games is in the process of publishing another AP: Throne of Night. It's an underdark crawl similar to kingmaker which can be playes from two points of view.
You might also want to look at this thread for more high level products: Level 16+ . Notably Adventure Quarterly does always contain one high level adventure.
Evil Lincoln |
I totally wouldn't mind seeing an epilogue to a popular AP turn up in the Modules line now and then, but another line? I just don't see it happening.
This is what I'm begging for, really. I don't think it needs to be a line.
I also don't think it needs to be more than a few easter-eggs for AP veteran PCs in an otherwise modular high-level adventure.
If you believe (as I do) that branding it as an AP epilogue will make it sell better, then by all means, it should be so branded.
The difference is, if a module came out that was branded as a Runelords Epilogue — even if it was only cosmetic — my players would demand we play it. There would be much more enthusiasm than I would get for an unbranded module. That sounds like a good way to beef up the modules line in its new format, I think. But of course, the Paizo management must account for things beyond my ken.
Auxmaulous |
gbonehead wrote:My only hope is that when (not if) Paizo grows a bit more, they'll seriously consider a separate subscription for Adventure Path Epilogues.There are limits to how big a company we want to be, in terms of number of employees, and we're approaching them.
There's also a limit to the number of Pathfinder products our market will *accept* in a calendar year, and I believe we're approaching that as well.
I totally wouldn't mind seeing an epilogue to a popular AP turn up in the Modules line now and then, but another line? I just don't see it happening.
I suggested it in another thread (which got deleted by Jessica), but why not handle the demand for higher level adventures in a quarterly or monthly Golarion Gazette?
So here is my Golarion Gazette/Quarterly pitch:The drawbacks of course would be that it would be another line and could be a tax on resources and writers, but it can have a huge upside.
- Promotes the world of Golarion as core product line (unlike Dungeon which had multiple offerings to cover different campaign worlds)
- Previews and expands on undeveloped areas of the world (as a test)
- Can feature up and coming writers: RPG superstar, freelancers, etc
- Can feature new Paizo products/rules (Mythic being an example)
- Promote PFS
- Springboard for APs and AP ideas (as a test based on customer feedback)
- Address the issue of customer requests on a shorter term basis and help prioritize based off popularity (high level scenarios, Vudra, Off world, etc)
- Promote alternate scenarios/rules/locations (high level scenarios, Vudra, Off World, etc) that are in demand.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Adventures in this line could cover the classic Dungeon range and then some:
-Low and Mid-level level adventures
-High level, High level + Mythic, continuation to APs (re: multiple possible adventures derived from the ending of a AP line).
-PFS scenarios
-Mythic Adventures (not-high level; low to mid level)
-Bridge scenarios between APs (mini scenarios which were cut from the older AP line - sadly missed by me). These can be ideas that the original AP writer liked but had to cut due to AP space limitations or they deviated from the AP too much to be included.
-Environs write up installments (Iobara in Kingmaker was excellent)
I do understand that saturation is an issue, but I think that the short adventure format is critical for RPG fantasy gaming. There were several Dungeon magazine installments that had content that I would never use (High level being one of them), but if it had other features and content (low and mid level scenarios) I always purchased them and I always had a use for them. Some of my favorite scenarios in Dungeon had other mods that I didn't even touch - didn't change the fact that I found 1 or 2 scenarios per magazine that stuck in my head.
So even though I am not a fan of High Level adventures, if they were presented in a book/magazine format with a mix of multiple scenarios I would still buy the book, and I would also say "throw in high level adventures". I believe that it would be a good resource for the DM who needs a scenario and doesn't want to commit to a full AP, or it could be utilized as a resource for the slow track (old school) DMs who need some in-between ideas for each AP installment.
Anyway, just a thought.
gbonehead Owner - House of Books and Games LLC |
It's also important to realize that the concept of a hard END point to an AP is important. If we start doing part 7 expansions... then how long before folks want us to do part 8?
Again, I love the fact that folks want more, but the fact that we only have time and resources to do 6 part adventures is key... and giving those six parts a good, solid end point is part of what makes them a whole, rather than something that kind of trails off or is extended out over a nebulous amount of time.
I totally wouldn't mind seeing an epilogue to a popular AP turn up in the Modules line now and then, but another line? I just don't see it happening.
Me neither.
Which is pretty much a quorum on the management team. :)
Heheheheh
Well, that's certainly an idea I'll never mention again :)
(not that I'm married to the idea ... it just seemed like a way to consistently have high-level material available. But James' point is an excellent one, and one I hadn't considered.)
Finally:
There are limits to how big a company we want to be, in terms of number of employees, and we're approaching them.
This is an awesome response. Truly awesome. I was actually thinking about that extensively when I was wondering if the AP Epilogue idea could even work. I'd imagine that were Paizo to grow beyond a certain size, it would no longer be possible to have a vision of the setting; instead it would turn into some sort of attempt at vision by sub-committee.
Ugh.
There's also a limit to the number of Pathfinder products our market will *accept* in a calendar year, and I believe we're approaching that as well.
Not being independently wealthy (or even anything resembling so), this makes me very happy. In fact, I'm really hoping one of the !!three!! full minis sets released this fall is late.
(because I really truly don't want to cancel my sub, but if three sets get released between August and December I'll have no choice)
</derail>
Anyways, to bring this back on topic, there's probably zero chance of me ever dropping the modules subscription; I'm an avid reader, and they make excellent reading, even if I could never possibly run all the level 1-6 material I've got.
Christina Stiles Contributor |
I suggested it in another thread (which got deleted by Jessica), but why not handle the demand for higher level adventures in a quarterly or monthly Golarion Gazette?
Having been Kobold Quarterly's Associate Editor in it's last year, I can tell you that magazine-like products require even more time and resources to output. That is one of the reasons Kobold Press quit doing the magazine. Someone has to go through the slush pile to find the gems. Sometimes they are rough gems that have to be sent back for re-writes. So, wrangling content can be a pain in and of itself. Then there is editing, layout, and proofing time. Print production time, if it's a physical product--which then includes your warehouse crew's time.
By the time you finish one cycle, it is time to do it all over again. plus, these publications are a harder sell.
So, in short: doing this would require a lot of resources, not fewer. Why not talk the Waysides folks into adding in some of the things you would like to see?
Vic Wertz Chief Technical Officer |
Auxmaulous |
Auxmaulous wrote:
I suggested it in another thread (which got deleted by Jessica), but why not handle the demand for higher level adventures in a quarterly or monthly Golarion Gazette?
Having been Kobold Quarterly's Associate Editor in it's last year, I can tell you that magazine-like products require even more time and resources to output. That is one of the reasons Kobold Press quit doing the magazine. Someone has to go through the slush pile to find the gems. Sometimes they are rough gems that have to be sent back for re-writes. So, wrangling content can be a pain in and of itself. Then there is editing, layout, and proofing time. Print production time, if it's a physical product--which then includes your warehouse crew's time.
By the time you finish one cycle, it is time to do it all over again. plus, these publications are a harder sell.
So, in short: doing this would require a lot of resources, not fewer. Why not talk the Waysides folks into adding in some of the things you would like to see?
I just feel like the Wayfinder stuff feels too fan-fic/story focused and is limited in production values.
Not arguing your points - I know conflicting resources are an issue here. I just feel that the short module format is actually the most useful for DMs (IMO of course) and the benefits I listed would outweigh the negatives.Well, I gave it a shot.....
Anguish |
Beyond the (im)practicality of doing Book 7, there's the story problem. Part of the beauty of an AP is that there's a huge over-arcing story that gets teased from early on, which has a climax and the end. Book 6 concludes and wraps up the essentials of what the players have been working on for a year or more.
"And then..."
Problem is that while people do get attached to characters and wonder what happens after the credits roll, whatever "and then" becomes by definition can't be as integrated or pivotal.
Imagine Runelords... once you defeat the Big Bad Evil Guy you've been trying to cope with for six books, you sell off some loot and discover that OMFG there's a higher CR bad guy just waiting for you!
Lame.
It sort of retroactively reduces the importance and glory of what the PCs have pulled off. As James said, APs are designed to have an end. While not every AP necessarily pulls it off perfectly, the intent is for climax. Moving the ultimate climax into a Book 7 is questionable at best because it'd by definition be something that wasn't teased all along. It'd be "oh, it turns out that BBEG was just working for this new guy you haven't heard of yet."
Again, lame.
I like high-level material as much as the next guy, but the end's the end IMHO.
Torger Miltenberger |
Just came back to this thread. I thought it died sometime ago. Couple things to address in case anyone's still listening.
Is it just that people want awesome high-level adventures, period, or that they want high-level adventures that jump off from existing Paizo APs?
Can't speak for anyone else but While AP add ons would be awesome I mostly just want high level content. I'm pretty capable of strining together modules into a solid campgain.
Fire Mountain Games is in the process of publishing another AP: Throne of Night. It's an underdark crawl similar to kingmaker which can be playes from two points of view.You might also want to look at this thread for more high level products: Level 16+ . Notably Adventure Quarterly does always contain one high level adventure.
That looks awesome. I'll definitely be keeping an eye on it.
- Torger
Kain Gallant |
I'll chime in as well and say that I'd also like more high-level modules.
Although I'm subscribed to both the AP and the Modules line, I run my campaigns in my homebrew world world. What I'm *looking* for are story ideas, challenges, and quick-to-reference stat blocks. I really enjoy all of Paizo's content, so I gobble it all up and then rework it for my purposes.
For example, my Kingmaker campaign had the same basic plot as written, but I shifted events and reworked NPC plots to fit my world. I then incorporated parts of Coarrion Hill and the Realm of the Fellnight Queen modules.
I find that Paizo's adventure content really top quality. I would really like to see them develop really good high-level ideas and challenges that I can use.
Lord Snow |
Vic Wertz wrote:I totally wouldn't mind seeing an epilogue to a popular AP turn up in the Modules line now and then, but another line? I just don't see it happening.This is what I'm begging for, really. I don't think it needs to be a line.
I also don't think it needs to be more than a few easter-eggs for AP veteran PCs in an otherwise modular high-level adventure.
If you believe (as I do) that branding it as an AP epilogue will make it sell better, then by all means, it should be so branded.
The difference is, if a module came out that was branded as a Runelords Epilogue — even if it was only cosmetic — my players would demand we play it. There would be much more enthusiasm than I would get for an unbranded module. That sounds like a good way to beef up the modules line in its new format, I think. But of course, the Paizo management must account for things beyond my ken.
Out of curiosity, how does your "epilogue" idea work with the "continue the campaign" articles in each AP #6? Do you expect the adventure to follow one of the suggestions or be entirely independent of the article?
I'm asking because of the amazing quality of the article from "The Witch Queen's Revange", which really has an entire campaign waiting to be developed in it. If your players are aching for an epilogue, you might be able to do a fine job of creating one all on your own from the ample advice and abundant ideas in an article like that.
Anguish |
Anguish, this is why the outer planes exist in the D&D cosmology. It gives "finished" heroes a place to go that doesn't completely rewrite the narrative of their world of origin.
Sorry I missed coming back to this EL. Unfortunately I think I've failed to express myself. To me the issue isn't a need for a WHERE, it's a question of integration. By definition anything tacked on is exactly that. It's just... more stuff to do with your characters after the plot of whatever AP you just finished.
In some cases it might work. For instance Council of Thieves could use a section where you maybe whack a thieves' guild. Or even go up the food-chain and take on Egorian. But still, it won't be anything to do with the {villians' names redacted} because you're done with them.
In other cases it just wouldn't make sense. Once you've stopped the rise of the... um... spoilerlords... you've done so. Bouncing into space or going to Sigil doesn't mesh. Story done. Please stop.
That's how I see it.
gbonehead Owner - House of Books and Games LLC |