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In pathfinder most effects with a random number are unknown
if some one hits you with a spell that leaves you fatigued for d4 rounds you dont know what the result of the roll is untill you are no longer fatigued.
when a monster uses its breath weapon is the cooldown known to the monster?
I like to take into account what my monsters know when they are deciding what to do. I may know that the player can magically teleport his weapon back to his hand as a swift action but if the disarming ninja does not know this he is going to try and disarm as usual.
With that in mind when my dragon breaths fire on the group he would act differently knowing his cooldown is 1 round than if its 4 rounds.
would you say the dragon knows he cant breath fire for anther 24 seconds as opposed to being able to do it again in 6 or 12 seconds?
On a side note... when the dragon breaths and I roll a 1 on the cool down... does that mean he can breath next round or the round after?
Liken it to when you're about to need to use the "facilities" in a fair hurry.
1 round = ready on the next round.
I would say a dragon knows quite well how long till its next breath weapon is up; they have decades to practice and become familiar with the sensations involved. A wyrmling might be a little unsure, but thats about it.
An ability that has a random effect after it lands on the target, like a confusion effect that lasts 1d4 rounds, I would say the creature knows how long it could last, but not how long it will.
And as a final note, don't forget a spellcraft check can let you know what happened to you if you are hit by a spell effect. Whether that would give level dependant variables like the duration of an acid arrow spell, hard to say. I'm personally in favor of rewarding skill investments, so if the check hit DC 15+CL, then I'd be okay with knowing the caster level of the effect.
actually I think Turin had the best example.
the dragon knows when it will be available on the next round but before then its rather vague.
on a side note... any one know the second part to that?
dragon breaths, I roll the cool down die and its a 1. can the dragon breath next round?
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Look at it this way: a Barbarian, a whirling, frothing, crazy impulse delivery method who happens to have roughly 8 INT, always knows exactly how many rounds of Rage he has per day, and how many he's used. Never mind how odd it is that this is always the same number, he just knows it.
In fact, that Barbarian is also aware of this number while raging. He knows, with less than a six second margin of error, how long his rage can last, and he can choose to stop short at any time.
If he starts, stops, rests, starts, stops, Rage cycles, rests, starts, takes critical damage and blacks out before coming to the next day, he STILL perfectly knows his number.
What I'm getting at is the dragon in your example is not only centuries older and more experienced than the Barbarian in mine, he's also probably 90 IQ smarter, and has more Wisdom. I'm pretty sure he knows what a 3 round cool-down feels like.
How could a monster with a variable cooldown on its breath weapon function if it didn't know the duration?
If it didn't know when it cooled down, it would either be rearing up to breath a big lungful of nothing every round, or the cooldown would just be the die's maximum because it wouldn't bother until it was sure to be ready.
It would have to know.
And as for your other statments about unknown information--I was pretty sure you would know the duration of things on you. If you're fatigued for 1d4 rounds, you would know how many rounds you were fatigued for. I don't see why you wouldn't. It's affecting you, after all.
Totally understand your point there Ninten.
however... in the game random rolled options are supposed to be more or less unknown to the best of my knowlage.
I am not putting this debate in Rules because I am not looking for a RAW answer. but I am also not trying to toss it all out for flavor.
since there is really no hard fast rule for it I think looking at it the following way works best
the idea is this.
fictionaly speaking.
i know enough about my body to know when I have enough spit to hauk a lugi.
I happen to know that I can hauk one up every 10 to 30 seconds which in game terms translates roughly into D4 + 1 rounds.
after hauking one at you I may not know exactly how long untill i have enough phlem to cough up again... but when it is there I can tell.
I think that is a fair way to interpert the fact that by RAW the effects of random cool downs and durations are unknown but by reason a being would have a pretty reasonable idea knowledge on the matter.
whats important is when my players are fighting a dragon does he make a decision about this round of combat KNOWING that he will have his breath weapon in 3 rounds or THINKING it will return in the next 1d4 rounds.
however... in the game random rolled options are supposed to be more or less unknown to the best of my knowlage.
Perhaps this assumption is worth investigating.
i extrapolate from other rules and traditions in the game.
Timed Durations
Many durations are measured in rounds, minutes, hours, or other increments. When the time is up, the magic goes away and the spell ends. If a spell's duration is variable, the duration is rolled secretly so the caster doesn't know how long the spell will last.
this specifically talks about spells but its reasonable to assume its not hard coded to spells only... for example Blinding Critical has a d4 dazzle effect if you fail. I assume that this duration is NOT known to either the dazzled or the one who got the crit.
also its kind of fundamentally understood that if I roll 2d6 to damage something... I know that i did 8 damage because I rolled the dice... but my CHARACTER does not know that he did 8 damage except by the DMs vague description.
in other words... its not a hard writen rule but seems to be the intent.
and yes. I know I stated this as a fact by RAW ^_^. that was specifically the Timeed Duration rule though i should have been more clear and less general in application of that 'fact'
exactly.
this is really just a question of how to divorce DM knowledge from Monster knowledge in the same way that players have to divorce Player knowledge from Character knowledge.
however... in the game random rolled options are supposed to be more or less unknown to the best of my knowlage.
That's an interesting perspective and it's one that I share. I often don't tell players the duration of things their character could not possibly know. For example, if the dragon breathes fire on the group and then I roll a 3 on the d4, I certainly don't tell the players that the dragon can breathe again in 3 rounds.
As for effects that are directly on a character, if it's an effect from a source he doesn't know very well (Knowledge checks or previous experience with this same character having that effect from that creature), then I don't tell the player the duration of such effects.
But, anyone who is using his/her/its own effect, and that effect is well known to the user, especially natural abilities (as opposed to learned feats/skills/spells), then I always assume the user knows exactly how it works.
(a bunch of oooky stuff about expectoration)
whats important is when my players are fighting a dragon does he make a decision about this round of combat KNOWING that he will have his breath weapon in 3 rounds or THINKING it will return in the next 1d4 rounds.
I think mplindustries said it fairly well:
How could a monster with a variable cooldown on its breath weapon function if it didn't know the duration?
If it didn't know when it cooled down, it would either be rearing up to breath a big lungful of nothing every round, or the cooldown would just be the die's maximum because it wouldn't bother until it was sure to be ready.
It would have to know.
To put some game fluff on that, let's assume that a dragon has a bellyful of fire (or a gizzardful, or a bioligically-unique-dragonfire organful). Whatever it is, it has some biological reservoir organ that contains the fire, or gas, or frost, or whatever. When that organ has enough stuff in it, the dragon can breathe it's breath weapon. But maybe it doesn't use all of the contents each time it breathes. Maybe sometimes it really lets it rip, lashing its head from side to side and blasting for all it's worth, draining its whole reservoir - now it needs 4 rounds to fill up the reservoir again. Other times, it fires off a short controlled burst right where it wants it, barely using a fraction of the reservoir - now it only needs one round to fill back up.
And, just like when your stomach is so full you can't eat another bite, or when your stomach is so empty you think you could eat a horse, the dragon can tell when this reservoir organ is full or empty, or somewhere in between, and it has had years, centuries even, to get used to the internal sensations and can pinpoint, to just about the exact second, how soon it will be able to breathe again.
As mplindustries said, if a dragon could not do that, then it would either have to waste entire rounds breathing a lungful of empty air (and halitosis) for no effect (just wasting its entire round doing nothing) or it would have to always assume it rolled a 4, never ever try to breathe on the first, second, or third round after the last time it breathed, just to be sure it didn't set itself up for a wasted round.
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Generally speaking, if there's a variable-duration effect that affects a PC directly, I'll tell them exactly how long it lasts for: "You're staggered for (roll) 3 rounds." Then they can keep track of their own effect with a countdown die. One more thing I don't have to do. Plus it helps keep the player happy if they can see and anticipate the end of the effect (especially if the effect keeps them from acting in the meantime).
However, I definitely keep enemy-side effects secret for them. The PCs won't know when the dragon's breath weapon will be up. The exception will be for when they are the ones who caused the effect, e.g. by casting a spell. Then I have them roll the duration, just like rolling damage. So they know how effective their spell has been.
DM Blake.
good points.
but again i use the spit example...
no matter how smart and old I am when I spit i know that it will take a given amount of time to have enough spit in my mouth to spit again.
and when I have enough spit I know that pretty instinctivly.
but i dont necessarily know how long it will take to get enough spit going.
does that mean I am siting there dry spitting to understand how much spit it available?
also when a monster does something the dice roll is not ment to think for the monster. the DM does.
thus when the dragon breaths he is breathing his normal attack. not holding back half intentionally for some tactic that the DM has to adjust to.
the dragon breaths... then he realizes he has enough breath stuff to do it again which he does next round.
then he realizes he does not and it will take a bit of time to get it back.
so he does other things... melee attacks... fly away to charge up... cast spells etc.
after 2 rounds he realizes that he has recharged just enough to be able to breath it again on the next round so next round he does so.
etc etc.
On a side note... if something gave a player a breath weapon would they know the cool down time? I dont think they would and the "ancient and wise dragon" argument would not fit in that respect... nor would it if the dragon were made stupid, if the dragon was young.. or if it was not a dragon but some other monster thats relatively stupid but has a breath weapon mechanic.
thus...
I agree with what your saying but I think its a little bit of over thinking and chalking it up to the dragon knows all concept... which i dont think applies here.
Generally speaking, if there's a variable-duration effect that affects a PC directly, I'll tell them exactly how long it lasts for: "You're staggered for (roll) 3 rounds." Then they can keep track of their own effect with a countdown die. One more thing I don't have to do. Plus it helps keep the player happy if they can see and anticipate the end of the effect (especially if the effect keeps them from acting in the meantime).
I used to do that also... but now it feels like kibitzing.
if I toss in a flash bang and it dazzles you... you know that you will recover in a few seconds... but you dont know how many seconds.
if I know that i will be ok in 12 seconds... i will act differently then if I think it will take 24.
i may let a player know its d4 as opposed to 3d4. but i wont tell them 2 rounds exactly... but thats just me.
when the players effect the monsters in the same way I am very carefull to treat the enemy as if they do not know the roll either. I have on many occations used completely useless attacks against a PC knowing in my mind that the PC has a counter to this attack but also knowing that the NPC does not have that knowlage.
So, they know it's ready when it is, but they don't know when it'll be ready.
more like
they dont know when it will be ready until the turn before its ready.
Paraphrasing the 3.5 draconomicon, "A dragon always knows exactly how long until it has built up enough energy for another breath weapon. Moreover, many dragons become adept at bluffing that another blast may come at any moment."
it would be so cool if that kind of bluffing actually mattered.
but tactics and strategy are not so precise in this game.
I'd want to take a closer look at the wording of that cooldown roll. If the language says something like roll for how many rounds it takes for the breath to be usable again I'd say a 1 means the next round, but if the text says roll to see how many cooldown rounds there are before the breath is usable again, 1 then means 1 round of cooldown and the breath will not be available till the following round. Ah, sweet sweet semantics.
'A dragon can use its breath weapon once every d4 rounds'.... so if you rolled a 1 that phrase is rewritten as 'a dragon can use its breath weapon once every 1 rounds.... so no cooldown at all on a 1. The breath weapon would be available on the immediate next round the way I read it.
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I think Blake's explanation makes the most sense. Most creatures will be able to tell when an ability can be used based on some physical feeling (much like being hungry, feeling full after eating, or being rested after being physical).
On the other hand, it could be interesting to have some creatures (especially younger varieties) who have not yet learned the full extent of their abilities. Having your PCs encounter a very young dragon who tries to breath fire too much could lead to some fun and exciting combat.
I liken it to having to stop to catch your breath after a hardy run. You have a general idea of how long it's going to take for you to recover.
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On a practical note for GMing, if a player were to utilize the appropriate polymorph spell to transform into something that has a breath weapon, should the player be aware of the die result that determines the length of their breath cool down? If not, in the event that they try to use it before said cool down has ended, should they lose that action?
How could a monster with a variable cooldown on its breath weapon function if it didn't know the duration?
If it didn't know when it cooled down, it would either be rearing up to breath a big lungful of nothing every round, or the cooldown would just be the die's maximum because it wouldn't bother until it was sure to be ready.
It would have to know.
And as for your other statments about unknown information--I was pretty sure you would know the duration of things on you. If you're fatigued for 1d4 rounds, you would know how many rounds you were fatigued for. I don't see why you wouldn't. It's affecting you, after all.
It could be aware of when it has gotten it "back," without knowing beforehand exactly which round that would occur on.
It's not a binary thing where they either know everything or know nothing.
To use the fatigued example: Say the 1d4 comes up a 3. First round, you know you're fatigued. You have no idea how long for. 2nd round, ditto. 3rd round, ditto. 4th round, you're not fatigued anymore and are aware of this fact.
On the other hand, it could be interesting to have some creatures (especially younger varieties) who have not yet learned the full extent of their abilities. Having your PCs encounter a very young dragon who tries to breath fire too much could lead to some fun and exciting combat.
This is why I read threads like this, game ideas are everywhere. :D
