i am trying to lock down how transformation bassed secondary attacks fit in with a characters attacks per round.
for example.
BlueBear has a one hand weapon with which he makes 3 attacks at +25 / +20 / +15
Through the effects of some spell or ability he remains humanoid but gains claw and bite secondary attacks.
when he attacks does he basically get his 3 normal attacks PLUS claws and bites?
If he is using a one handed weapon in one claw does he basically get 3 stabs with the sword then a bite then a claw?
how would these extra attacks break down is it +25 sword, +20 Sword, +15, sword, +10 claw, +5 bite?
or do you simply get to replace a sword attack with a claw/bite attack if you so chose?
and if I replace a sword with a claw for example... does that mean an aditional -5 to the itterative attacks because its a secondary attack?
so I could do +25 sword, +15 claw, +15 sword.
I think the important ting to realize is the tecondary attacks basically have nothing to do with transformaton whatsoever. It is basically 'how do secondary attacks in conjunction with weapons work?"
If WizardWarrior has a Bab of 11 under transformaton an 18 str and a +2 sword he makes his sword attacks at +17/+12/++7 fairly straightforward. We'll say Wizard warrior is also a lvl 2 Barbarian with the Claws power. So he casts Transformation then rages.
So he is now 22str for a sword attack of +19/+14/+9 His Claw is done of fof his BAB + str and at -16 so will be at +11 (Bab 11 +6 str bonus is 17 then -5 for secondary attacks)
Basically all secondary attacks are at -5 and do half strength and are not based off of your iterative attacks.
And... writing this i realize a lvl 9 wizard lvl 2 bararbarian cant cast transformation but the Math still makes sense in context. Basically your characer level bcomes your BaB and all the other math after that is done independant of the Transformation spell.
Important to note if the wizard has 2 claw attacks and is using a sword that claw is occupied and cannot be used for a claw attack.
wait... you lost me on the second string of math.
does that mean he does not get any extra attacks. he can simply chose to use a claw instead of a sword and the attack bonus is based on BAB+str-5 for secondary -X for iterative?)
or does he get his 3 normal attacks plus the secondary attacks with any secondary attack not occupied with a weapon.
I'll rephrase first, all Transformation does is change your BaB to your character level. After that it has no role in the math.
lvl 12 Wizard, casting transformation has a BaB of 12. we'll assume he has a 14 str a +2 sword and becomes 18 str after Transformation.
So his Sword Attack is +18/+13/+8.
Now we'll say he used Alter shape beforehand to turn himself into something with claw claw bite. (so his str for this example is now 20 from the +2 size bonus)
Claws are +15 +15
Bite +15
He does not get any iterative attacks with these.
IF he uses his sword its +19/+14/+9
Then Claw +10 Bite +10 and he only gets half str on the claw and bite. He looses 1 claw because that hand is holding the sword.
He gets no iterative attacks witht he natural weapons.
using the example above
he can go Sword +18, Bite +15, Claw +15
but cant go Sword, Sword, Sword, Bite, Claw
correct?
no. The moment he uses the sword /and/ the claws his claws become a secondary weapon. they get -5 and half str to damage
it doesnt matter how many sword attacks he does as long as at least 1.
I'm pretty sure the OP is not talking about the spell Transformation, but rather a Polymorph effect.
If you attack with a mix of weapon attacks and natural attacks, the natural attacks become secondary meaning they are made at your highest attack bonus with a -5 penalty.
BlueBear's attacks would look like:
+25 sword, +20 Sword, +15, sword, +20 claw, +20 bite
If BlueBear dropped his sword and made only natural attacks, he'd get:
+25 claw, +25 claw, +25 bite
wait... so your saying that he DOES suddenly get 2 extra attacks?
what i am REALLY getting at here is does the polymorph effect now grant extra attacks per round.
does he go from 3 attacks to 5 due to the transformation or is he limited to his 3 attacks per round but now has new options for how he uses those attacks.
and if he does get extra attacks how do they factor into his attack penalties.
I think quantums explanation makes sense... except I want to make sure that BlueBear now gets 5 attacks per round
sword, sword, sword, claw, bite.
If you have natural attacks you can use then in conjunction with your manufactured weapons but they are treated as secondary natural attacks...so they are made at full BAB-5 and .5 x STR
If he has 3 attacks from BAB and suddenly now has claws and a bite then yes he gets 5 attacks...3 from BAB, a claw, and a bite
He doesn't get the other claw because his hand is being used to attack with the manufactured weapon
BlueBear does get 2 extra attacks, but they're often not that great.
The damage dice is low, typically 1d4 for the claw and 1d6 for the bite (assuming a medium creature), you only get to add .5 STR to secondary attacks, and natural attacks are expensive to enchant.
You also can't use your other hand for anything else if you want that claw attack, like THF, TWF, or a shield. Some of those can arguably be more useful than a 1d4 claw attack.
Its not much of an attack in and of itself but when its a rogue who gets to add sneak attack dice its huge.
But good to know as it was a question at the table.
Its not much of an attack in and of itself but when its a rogue who gets to add sneak attack dice its huge.
But good to know as it was a question at the table.
That's true, and it might be a relevant trick if you have someone who went into Arcane Trickster who had some time to prebuff before combat.
nope. I have a rogue who level dipped alchemist so he is using feral mutagen to gain claw/claw/bite.
since he is holding a dagger in one hand he gets dagger/dagger/dagger/claw/bite if I understand correctly