Donald Glover talking about the response to him wanting to be Spider-Man...

[phantom1592]

ShinHakkaider wrote:

Matthew Morris wrote:

Helaman wrote:

Want to see a white racist explode, nerd or otherwise?

Black Captain America and Black Thor.

Standback and watch the craniums exploding.

Want to see a black racist's head explode?

White guy playing Black Panther.

Hint, not seeing an ethnicity change as a good idea isn't a sign of racism.

Close enough?

Even closer ;)

[The 8th Dwarf]

I am both of Boer and Australian Aboriginal descent, does that make me a half villain half good guy.

There are other colonial nations in Africa aside from South Africa and all of North Africa does not consider itself to be black Africa, but if you are not black you are not a proper African, I suppose.

I and the South African side of my family have always been opposed to racism and discrimination in any form.... Its easy for people to label white South Africans as villains especially when their only knowledge of the country comes from Lethal Weapon.

As a descendant of two white dominated former colonies to the descendant of another white dominated colony (but we must all remember that the US is always the good guys and perfect in every way in comparison to every other country in the world) its best not throw stones in glass houses.

Africa is complex and it deserves to be seen in more than stereotypes and generalisations.

The white people of South Africa are divided along British and Afrikaans(Boer) lines and the politics of liberalism and resistance against conservative apartheid is incredibly complex.

Below is a list of some white South Africans that actively resisted apartheid. The majority didn't resist because they were afraid or it wasn't in their interest and that is shameful.

No less shameful than the history of Slavery or the extermination of the native peoples elsewhere... and easier for people to point at South Africa because the victims still live and it helps deflect people from looking at their own countries failings.

Adolph Malan, DSO & Bar, DFC & Bar

Helen Suzman

Harry Heinz Schwarz

Joe Slovo

Lionel Bernstein

Helen Zille

Breyten Breytenbach

André Brink

Alan Paton

Albert Geyser

Beyers Naudé

Peter Randall

Denis Hurley

James Kantor: was Nelson Mandela's lawyer in the Rivonia Trial until he too was arrested and was charged with the same crimes as Mandela.

Torch Commando: a South African organisation of World War II veterans, founded in 1941 during the second world war by progressive anti-fascist servicemen, and the War Veterans Action Committee established with the involvement of Springbok Legionaires to appeal to a broader base of ex-servicemen

The Torch Commando existed for more than five years, and at its height had 250,000 members. The government was alarmed by the number of judges, public servants and military officers joining the organisation, and a new law was passed to ban anyone in public service or the military from joining. Subsequently the National Party did everything to purge the memory of the Springbok Legion, Torch Commando and men such as 'Sailor' Malan, who have appeal with white Afrikaner youth.

[thejeff]

The 8th Dwarf wrote:

I am both of Boer and Australian Aboriginal descent, does that make me a half villain half good guy.

There are other colonial nations in Africa aside from South Africa and all of North Africa does not consider itself to be black Africa, but if you are not black you are not a proper African, I suppose.

I and the South African side of my family have always been opposed to racism and discrimination in any form.... Its easy for people to label white South Africans as villains especially when their only knowledge of the country comes from Lethal Weapon.

As a descendant of two white dominated former colonies to the descendant of another white dominated colony (but we must all remember that the US is always the good guys and perfect in every way in comparison to every other country in the world) its best not throw stones in glass houses.

Africa is complex and it deserves to be seen in more than stereotypes and generalisations.

The white people of South Africa are divided along British and Afrikaans(Boer) lines and the politics of liberalism and resistance against conservative apartheid is incredibly complex.

Below is a list of some white South Africans that actively resisted apartheid. The majority didn't resist because they were afraid or it wasn't in their interest and that is shameful.

No less shameful than the history of Slavery or the extermination of the native peoples elsewhere... and easier for people to point at South Africa because the victims still live and it helps deflect people from looking at their own countries failings.

Adolph Malan, DSO & Bar, DFC & Bar

Helen Suzman

Harry Heinz Schwarz

Joe Slovo

Lionel Bernstein

Helen Zille

Breyten Breytenbach

André Brink

Alan Paton

Albert Geyser

Beyers Naudé

Peter Randall

Denis Hurley

James Kantor: was Nelson Mandela's lawyer in the Rivonia Trial until he too was arrested and was charged with the same crimes as Mandela.

Torch Commando: a South African organisation of World War II veterans,...

I am not saying what you think I'm saying. I don't think all white Africans are evil. I certainly don't think the US has the moral high ground.

We started this by talking about race swapping the Black Panther, remember?
I just think this:

Quote:

A white Black Panther? That doesn't really work, unless Wakanda is like South Africa, a white-dominated colonial nation on the African continent.

Wouldn't work.

A "White Panther" as the hero/ruler of "a white-dominated colonial nation", "like South Africa" is either going to be a villain or the righteous White Man ruling the natives for their own good.
Now, if you had a whole slew of books featuring African heroes, you could certainly mix some white Africans in there. But since we're talking about the American mainstream comics market, that's not the situation.

[The 8th Dwarf]

I will get off my soapbox.

I just want to make sure that people take a good look at themselves before they stop throwing stereotypes around.

In general thejeffI agree with most with what you have to say but I think the wording of somethings could be better.

[Freehold DM]

I would also add that you are not claiming to be a king or the descendant of a line of nobility who was born to rule over the wakandan people and serve as their spiritual guardian/icon.

[Slaunyeh]

magnuskn wrote:

Nonetheless, Marvel has stuck with their definition of the character for five decades now. That is why I say he is one of the most consistent ones they got.

And the "facts" that got you riled up said nothing about consistency. I don't think anyone has made any sort of remark regarding mThor's (lack of) consistency.

[Matthew Morris]

ShinHakkaider wrote:

Close enough?

And since I was reading and following the book at the time I don't recall their being as big of a backlash as there was for Miles Morales.

Interesting. I've not followed BP outside of the Avengers, so I was unaware of this. The little sidebar about Tom DeFalco's comments on Spider-man make me want to throat punch him though. Kind of reminds me of a bit of Rita DeMara. But then I'm a sucker for the 'jerk/villian becomes a hero' bit. I was really hoping to see Karla Soffen reform and be involved with Clint Barton for example.

(Now there's a tangent, why do female 'legacy' character not attract as much controversy?)

As for 'controversy' maybe it's because Black Panther isn't as recognized as Spider-man? Plus look how the press likes to gin up controversy. Look at the "GAY GREEN LANTERN!!!!!!" Headlines that didn't get into which Lantern they were talking about.*

*

Spoiler:

I was more miffed at the loss of Obsidian and Jade than them making (a new) Alan Scott gay. Though the writer's comments that they felt they had to make him gay because there deleted Obsidian bothered me. It read more 'bean counting' than 'character development' to me.

[thejeff]

Matthew Morris wrote:

ShinHakkaider wrote:

Close enough?

And since I was reading and following the book at the time I don't recall their being as big of a backlash as there was for Miles Morales.

Interesting. I've not followed BP outside of the Avengers, so I was unaware of this. The little sidebar about Tom DeFalco's comments on Spider-man make me want to throat punch him though. Kind of reminds me of a bit of Rita DeMara. But then I'm a sucker for the 'jerk/villian becomes a hero' bit. I was really hoping to see Karla Soffen reform and be involved with Clint Barton for example.

(Now there's a tangent, why do female 'legacy' character not attract as much controversy?)

As for 'controversy' maybe it's because Black Panther isn't as recognized as Spider-man? Plus look how the press likes to gin up controversy. Look at the "GAY GREEN LANTERN!!!!!!" Headlines that didn't get into which Lantern they were talking about.*

*** spoiler omitted **

White Tiger wasn't really all that white either, which probably helped. African-American father, Jewish mother, IIRC, though pretty light skinned. And a lot lower-profile than Spiderman. And though he wore the costume and starred in the title, he didn't really take on the full role. He stayed in NY and didn't deal that much with Wakanda. Certainly didn't rule it.

I'm also miffed at the loss of Alan Scott. As well as Jade and Obsidian. And all the semi-Earth 2/original JSA legacy stuff, as much as it's been screwed up by retcons and reboots over the years. They'll all be back eventually. One way or another. Some fan of the characters will get in a position to do it.

[magnuskn]

Slaunyeh wrote:

magnuskn wrote:

Nonetheless, Marvel has stuck with their definition of the character for five decades now. That is why I say he is one of the most consistent ones they got.

And the "facts" that got you riled up said nothing about consistency. I don't think anyone has made any sort of remark regarding mThor's (lack of) consistency.

I think I'll just quote you here once again:

Slaunyeh wrote:

Pff. Marvel Thor is already so messed up it doesn't really matter what colour his skin is.

[Matthew Morris]

I agree about losing a lot of the JSA stuff. (That and the Stillborn Justice League Africa that Robinson wanted to do)

Funny thing is, I can at least look at Earth-2 as "Ultimate JSA" kind of like the Ultimates Universe.

For some reason, I always liked 'Coal Tiger' better than 'Black Panther', even though it would be an even sillier name for an Africa based super hero.

Aside on ethnic stuff, but comic book related.
Vigilante: Hey, Vix, ain't this supposed to be your territory? Use some of your animal tricks to give us a leg up.
Vixen: What makes you think I know anything about the jungle? I live in a loft in Chelsea.

[thejeff]

Matthew Morris wrote:

I agree about losing a lot of the JSA stuff. (That and the Stillborn Justice League Africa that Robinson wanted to do)

Funny thing is, I can at least look at Earth-2 as "Ultimate JSA" kind of like the Ultimates Universe.

I actually kind of like the new Earth-2 stuff. It's a cool backstory and lets them do things they really can't do in the main universe. OTOH, that doesn't mean they had to get rid of all the cool characters and history from the original Earth 2. Especially since that had all been merged into the main Earth anyway.

But no. All superhero history has to start a perpetual "5 years ago".

[Slaunyeh]

magnuskn wrote:

I think I'll just quote you here once again:

Slaunyeh wrote:

Pff. Marvel Thor is already so messed up it doesn't really matter what colour his skin is.

I'm well aware of what I said. But apparently, despite having quoted me several times, you seem a bit confused.

1) I realize it's unusual, with this being the internet and all, but the above was my opinion and not a statement of "fact". You seem confused, considering how you requested me to back up my "facts". Which I did by saying that I grew up with a different mythology than you and thus found Marvel's "interpretation" of Norse mythology odd, at best.

2) I don't see the word 'consistency' (or a variation) anywhere in the quoted text. You might chose to interpret 'messed up' as 'lacking consistency', but seeing how I've clarified a couple of times by now, that I have no opinion on Marvel Thor's consistency, you'd think that just repeating my quote back at me is a little less than helpful. I think the words you were looking for are more something like "oh, I misunderstood what you meant. My bad."

3) Considering what Marvel has already done to the character, making Thor non-Scandinavian doesn't seem like much of a stretch. He could, as I said, be a Chinese guy in a Camaro for all the difference it would make.

Fun Fact: I remember back when Thor had just released, reading an interview with an Exec of, I don't know, Marvel or Disney, expressing surprise that Thor (the movie) hadn't done better than Captain America (again, the movie) in Scandinavia. They had, apparently, thought that Captain America would be entirely alien, while Thor is "one of us."

This, to me, is a great example of a marketing fluke. Everyone can relate to Captain America. Sure, it's cheesy and kinda dumb, but that's what we like about the genre :) Meanwhile, the Marvel-Thor isn't the Thor that people in Scandinavia are familiar with, so it left a lot of "...the hell?" feelings. Which, apparently, caught Marvel/Disney/Whatever by surprise.

[Kryzbyn]

If memory serves, Thor in mythology is not a noble or nice guy.

[Slaunyeh]

Slaunyeh wrote:

He could, as I said, be a Chinese guy in a Camaro for all the difference it would make.

And now I can't stop imagining Thor, played by Jet Li, as the new Knight Rider. He is the Aesir God of Thunder! It is an artificially intelligent electronic computer module installed in a robotic automobile: Together they fight crime.

I'd watch it!

[Sissyl]

Thor in the myths is a war god, a man's man, not very bright, brutal, vengeful, indiscriminate where he throws his hammer/lightning bolts, crude, and strong enough to never really use any other method of solving problems. He is married to Sif, and she is an obedient wife. Politically, Thor does what Odin tells him to do. He generally never bested Loki. Thor did dress up in women's clothing, and Sif was unfaithful to him with Loki.

Now, since Thor was a popular god, it is possible that even most of this was ridicule from early christian missionaries.

All told, Marvel was kind to him, and added the parts about smart and noble.

[thejeff]

Slaunyeh wrote:

magnuskn wrote:

I think I'll just quote you here once again:

Slaunyeh wrote:

Pff. Marvel Thor is already so messed up it doesn't really matter what colour his skin is.

I'm well aware of what I said. But apparently, despite having quoted me several times, you seem a bit confused.

1) I realize it's unusual, with this being the internet and all, but the above was my opinion and not a statement of "fact". You seem confused, considering how you requested me to back up my "facts". Which I did by saying that I grew up with a different mythology than you and thus found Marvel's "interpretation" of Norse mythology odd, at best.

2) I don't see the word 'consistency' (or a variation) anywhere in the quoted text. You might chose to interpret 'messed up' as 'lacking consistency', but seeing how I've clarified a couple of times by now, that I have no opinion on Marvel Thor's consistency, you'd think that just repeating my quote back at me is a little less than helpful. I think the words you were looking for are more something like "oh, I misunderstood what you meant. My bad."

3) Considering what Marvel has already done to the character, making Thor non-Scandinavian doesn't seem like much of a stretch. He could, as I said, be a Chinese guy in a Camaro for all the difference it would make.

Fun Fact: I remember back when Thor had just released, reading an interview with an Exec of, I don't know, Marvel or Disney, expressing surprise that Thor (the movie) hadn't done better than Captain America (again, the movie) in Scandinavia. They had, apparently, thought that Captain America would be entirely alien, while Thor is "one of us."

This, to me, is a great example of a marketing fluke. Everyone can relate to Captain America. Sure, it's cheesy and kinda dumb, but that's what we like about the genre :) Meanwhile, the Marvel-Thor isn't the Thor that people in Scandinavia are familiar with, so it left a lot of "...the hell?" feelings. Which, apparently, caught...

OTOH, when you ignore both the actual myths and 50 years of comics, everyone can get the "what the hell?" feeling.

[magnuskn]

Slaunyeh wrote:

magnuskn wrote:

I think I'll just quote you here once again:

Slaunyeh wrote:

Pff. Marvel Thor is already so messed up it doesn't really matter what colour his skin is.

I'm well aware of what I said. But apparently, despite having quoted me several times, you seem a bit confused.

1) I realize it's unusual, with this being the internet and all, but the above was my opinion and not a statement of "fact". You seem confused, considering how you requested me to back up my "facts". Which I did by saying that I grew up with a different mythology than you and thus found Marvel's "interpretation" of Norse mythology odd, at best.

2) I don't see the word 'consistency' (or a variation) anywhere in the quoted text. You might chose to interpret 'messed up' as 'lacking consistency', but seeing how I've clarified a couple of times by now, that I have no opinion on Marvel Thor's consistency, you'd think that just repeating my quote back at me is a little less than helpful. I think the words you were looking for are more something like "oh, I misunderstood what you meant. My bad."

3) Considering what Marvel has already done to the character, making Thor non-Scandinavian doesn't seem like much of a stretch. He could, as I said, be a Chinese guy in a Camaro for all the difference it would make.

Fun Fact: I remember back when Thor had just released, reading an interview with an Exec of, I don't know, Marvel or Disney, expressing surprise that Thor (the movie) hadn't done better than Captain America (again, the movie) in Scandinavia. They had, apparently, thought that Captain America would be entirely alien, while Thor is "one of us."

This, to me, is a great example of a marketing fluke. Everyone can relate to Captain America. Sure, it's cheesy and kinda dumb, but that's what we like about the genre :) Meanwhile, the Marvel-Thor isn't the Thor that people in Scandinavia are familiar with, so it left a lot of "...the hell?" feelings. Which, apparently, caught...

Yeah, by this time the debate has obviously been a bit senseless. I apologize for being a bit too compulsive-obsessive on your comment.

I'll say, however, that you'd be surprised how many people are not comfortable with Captain America right now. :p Mostly the one from the comics who lately has done a ton of questionable stuff.

[The black raven]

ShinHakkaider wrote:

When nerds try to say that they are more tolerant than others being a black guy that's been playing and running RPG's for about 30 years and have been into comics even longer?

I can say unequivocally that that's BS.

I just listened to Ryan Costello Jr and Reaper Bryan make that statement in one of the recent Know Direction podcast and became enraged. ENRAGED.

I just read the OSC thread here where posters basically blow off racisim as not that big of a deal compared to gay rights while some of them IN THE SAME BREATH cite the fight for gay rights as the same as the fight for civil rights. As a straight black male who actually doesnt see any difference between the fight for gay rights and the fight for civil rights or any difference between homophobia and racism it feels like a betrayal. It doesnt change my views but I cant help but be a little angry.

Anyway this is just a reminder for those who just love to say that racism is dead or just not that big of a deal or than no one sees black people (especially black men) like that:

Donald Glover talking about the fan response to him wanting to be Spider-Man

It is IMO a very sad truth of human nature that being a victim does not make the person immune to being a bully/racist/bad person. Even similar in many cases to the ones who victimized him/her (but not seeing/admitting it obviously).

So, yes people who are discriminated against (say, nerds as social outsiders) can still be guilty of the very same discriminations (say against black people).

And they will be even more extreme in their intolerant behavior as they see themselves as being the victims (and thus in the right/vindicated/not guilty).

And this holds true for any victim of any kind of discrimination (and for any human being really).

Exceptions exist as always (thankfully), but only on a person-by-person basis.

[Mack the Troll]

The 8th Dwarf wrote:

Adolph Malan, DSO & Bar, DFC & Bar

Helen Suzman

Harry Heinz Schwarz

Joe Slovo

Lionel Bernstein

Helen Zille

Breyten Breytenbach

André Brink

Alan Paton

Albert Geyser

Beyers Naudé

Peter Randall

Denis Hurley

James Kantor: was Nelson Mandela's lawyer in the Rivonia Trial until he too was arrested and was charged with the same crimes as Mandela.

Torch Commando: a South African organisation of World War II veterans,...

Andre Stander

[Abandoned Arts]

I just stopped in to say OH MY GOD DONALD GLOVER WOULD MAKE AN AWESOME MILES. It's so natural and perfect. He's got the right look and the perfect "sarcastic-but-just-too-inherently-likeable-to-come-across-as-a-jerk" delivery.

Maybe one day...

Spoiler:

Nevermind that all he'd have to do to is outperform Toby "worst actor ever" Maguire.