Shadowborn |
That's a tough one. The thing that made the Roman legions fearsome was that they were...well, legion. They fought together in units, using superior tactics and discipline to defeat their foes. The average fighter in an adventuring group is usually flying solo, or at least working in a small team.
Still, I'd go with shield feats, bump the short sword proficiency. Maybe teamwork feats to utilize your companions to the best of your ability.
TimD |
Unfortunately, Combat Expertise requires 13+ Int, which makes it unlikely to be found in mass amounts of grunt troops.
I would make them human fighters with progressions something similar to:
1st L Fighter-1: Shield Focus ; Level-1: Shield Wall ; Human: Toughness
2nd L Escape Route
3rd L Pack Attack
4th L Outflank
5th L Missile Shield
6th L Combat Reflexes
7th L Dodge
8th L Greater Shield Focus
9th L Mobility
10th Combat Patrol
11th Lunge
12+ (if applicable) additional teamwork feats, and "I am not a number!" Feats.
I would also likely have leaders as Tactician Fighters or Cavaliers to spread a few additional teamwork feats around.
-TimD
Son of the Veterinarian |
You will be a sword and board fighter, so shield feats. You should look at the bull rush feats as legionares pushing people around with their shields is how most people think they fought, weather or not that's how it really happened.
Endurance should also be on your list, as marching with a full kit, then marching, then marching some more before fighting the enemy...and then setting up a full camp before bedding down for the night is what a Roman soldier is all about.
doc the grey |
Phalanx fighter feat from 3.5 as shield + short sword would work. AD&D had banded armor (Lorica Segmentia) so maybe use breastplate or chain mail as they also used Lorica Hamata.
The Glory of Rome source book is also a PDF on RPGnow.com although it is 2nd ed based it might give you some ideas.
We still have banded mail in pf and I think there are some shield and sword feats in pf as well. As for extra books for inspiration I am using the eternal rome supplament from green ronin which has a lot of good ideas going for it. Kind of why I'm just looking at feats atm since that's giving me a lot of ideas of how to equip and skill them out.
Helaman |
Bonus: Shield Focus. Teamwork Feat: Shield Wall. Human: Endurance.
Those are assuming they are level 1 fighters and not level 1 warriors.
If we were playing a 'parity' to the age of Rome as opposed to Pathfinder then its probably good to assume that Legionaries are fighters and a lot of their enemies (not all) are using the NPC warrior class instead. The Roman legions trained constantly.
Your average legionary would have been a fighter, not a cavalier. The Centurions, being raised from the ranks would be fighters with cavalier levels for those command effects.
Your Milage May Vary but I tend to think of the mainstream world in terms of level 1-2 rather than any one other than the most seasoned of soldiers being level 4+ so unless you want your ancient world populated with level 10 NPCs I'd low-ball the average legionary to level 1-2. Centurions to levels 3-4.
Helaman |
There is an entire archetype for that. The Tower shield specialist. Weapon focus/specialization (gladius), Shield focus (tower shield) and probably a couple of teamwork feats.
Bingo! Had forgotten about it. Mind you the proper benefits of this archetype don't land until level 5.
Don't really see the need for weapon focus at level 1 though. These guys in a unit are very very hard to hit for a group of equivalent level foes. A few rounds of 50% hit chance will still see them win nearly everytime
Helaman |
But do not forget the offense either. if you are unhiteable but unable t kill your enemies then your enemies will start to ignore you and target your comrades.
Who are, if we are talking a unit of legionaries rather than an individual PC, just as unhitable as you. You also have the option to aid another with more effect that the foe.
The reason I was sort of frowny on the trait was I thought the poster was after building Roman legionaries in general rather than a Roman PC who was/is a legionary and I see traits as PC options rather than NPC options.
If we are talking an individual PC rather than part of a NPC unit, then sure, add in the weapon focus
Helaman |
You got that right for large units - so say units of the size of a Roman Century or even the Maniple but to have no unit structure at all is to not be a Roman legionary.
IF I were to successfully move Roman legions to Golarion AND have them deal with magic, I'd say they'd operate in units of 8 (the Contubernium). This is the number of legionaries that typically tented and messed together with 2 slaves to serve them. This is enough to form a small tortoise formation or to link with another unit to form a small shield wall to thinly hold a small section of the battlefield. They'd be more nimble and flexible in meeting up with other Contuberni to operate for small periods of time in a formation before dispersing again to their smaller units.
In situations where the Romans had counter magic or were assured of low chance of magical attack, I'd say they'd move and fight in units the size of the Maniple rather than the Century. However I also think that the Byzantine legions and tactics are more flexible that those of the Republic or early empire.
However saying that Roman units shouldn't be grouped together due to magic is saying like they shouldn't be grouped together because of automatic weapons and modern artillery. The Roman legion evolved in the absence of such concerns.
The OP only wanted to know how to make a Roman Legionary using PF as a rule set. "Could the Legions succeed in Golarion"? is worthy of a thread of its own.
doc the grey |
It's a shield wall. A fireball or lightning bolt will only penetrate if it can burn through a thin metal wall.
Real legionnaires went up against barbarians, especially in the Celtic isles.
Actually if they are using tower shields in formation they may not be hurt at all. All they have to do is move in formation and continuously ready to pull total cover from their shields. If you have enough you could theoretically cover every side and provide everyone in the formation cover against the area attack which would negate their damage.
Flamehawke |
I had a player go for this style. Though he stated he wanted to play the Phalanx style and see how it went and wanted to play with a spear. I pointed him to the Phalanx Soldier Archetype for the Fighter in the APG. He got to level 17 before the game ended and that was a very powerful Archetype when they worked as a team. He took out a great deal due to what it allowed.
Goth Guru |
Goth Guru wrote:Actually if they are using tower shields in formation they may not be hurt at all. All they have to do is move in formation and continuously ready to pull total cover from their shields. If you have enough you could theoretically cover every side and provide everyone in the formation cover against the area attack which would negate their damage.It's a shield wall. A fireball or lightning bolt will only penetrate if it can burn through a thin metal wall.
Real legionnaires went up against barbarians, especially in the Celtic isles.
We are in agreement. A shield wall will stop most normal fireballs.
Gallo |
doc the grey wrote:We are in agreement. A shield wall will stop most normal fireballs.Goth Guru wrote:Actually if they are using tower shields in formation they may not be hurt at all. All they have to do is move in formation and continuously ready to pull total cover from their shields. If you have enough you could theoretically cover every side and provide everyone in the formation cover against the area attack which would negate their damage.It's a shield wall. A fireball or lightning bolt will only penetrate if it can burn through a thin metal wall.
Real legionnaires went up against barbarians, especially in the Celtic isles.
In a testudo sure, but in a shield wall they would have to be aware the fireball is coming. If it goes off above them or behind them is the readied action going to help them? Which edge do they choose to get cover along?
A fireball is effectively the same as an air burst artillery shell. A shield will give you total cover if you are directly below it but otherwise not.
doc the grey |
You know, you shouldn't forget to carry some Pilum. If possible, Roman Legionaries would open every battle by tossing a couple volleys of these javelins at the enemy.
That's the plan. Right now most of this is going towards a roles block similar to what we've seen in the recent players companions for my home campaign. That way I can give my players a feel for the regions they are playing in in both mechanics and fluff.
Nicos |
But... a successful Pilum attack negates the shield bonus until they use a standard action to remove it from the shield.
Every character I have has at least 1 of them, usually 2.
Oh, that happens when I trust in my memory and do not bother to read the text. The pilum is great in PF.
doc the grey |
TGMaxMaxer wrote:Oh, that happens when I trust in my memory and do not bother to read the text. The pilum is great in PF.But... a successful Pilum attack negates the shield bonus until they use a standard action to remove it from the shield.
Every character I have has at least 1 of them, usually 2.
Yup. The plan for equipment is something like tower shields, banded mail, scale mail, chainmail, gladius, pilum, spears, daggers, and crossbows as a specialty option.