Feats for a Roman Legionare


Homebrew and House Rules

Shadow Lodge

Think I might have misspelled something but hopefully it gets the point across. Does anyone know of some good feat options for a fighter or cavalier based on the roman legion's famous infantrymen?

Shadow Lodge

bump


That's a tough one. The thing that made the Roman legions fearsome was that they were...well, legion. They fought together in units, using superior tactics and discipline to defeat their foes. The average fighter in an adventuring group is usually flying solo, or at least working in a small team.

Still, I'd go with shield feats, bump the short sword proficiency. Maybe teamwork feats to utilize your companions to the best of your ability.

Shadow Lodge

Yeah I was figuring teamwork feats were the way to go for this. What would be some good ones to fill in those roles? also would stuff like combat expertise fit well?


Unfortunately, Combat Expertise requires 13+ Int, which makes it unlikely to be found in mass amounts of grunt troops.

I would make them human fighters with progressions something similar to:

1st L Fighter-1: Shield Focus ; Level-1: Shield Wall ; Human: Toughness
2nd L Escape Route
3rd L Pack Attack
4th L Outflank
5th L Missile Shield
6th L Combat Reflexes
7th L Dodge
8th L Greater Shield Focus
9th L Mobility
10th Combat Patrol
11th Lunge

12+ (if applicable) additional teamwork feats, and "I am not a number!" Feats.

I would also likely have leaders as Tactician Fighters or Cavaliers to spread a few additional teamwork feats around.

-TimD


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

You will be a sword and board fighter, so shield feats. You should look at the bull rush feats as legionares pushing people around with their shields is how most people think they fought, weather or not that's how it really happened.

Endurance should also be on your list, as marching with a full kit, then marching, then marching some more before fighting the enemy...and then setting up a full camp before bedding down for the night is what a Roman soldier is all about.


Phalanx fighter feat from 3.5 as shield + short sword would work. AD&D had banded armor (Lorica Segmentia) so maybe use breastplate or chain mail as they also used Lorica Hamata.

The Glory of Rome source book is also a PDF on RPGnow.com although it is 2nd ed based it might give you some ideas.

Shadow Lodge

Zardnaar wrote:

Phalanx fighter feat from 3.5 as shield + short sword would work. AD&D had banded armor (Lorica Segmentia) so maybe use breastplate or chain mail as they also used Lorica Hamata.

The Glory of Rome source book is also a PDF on RPGnow.com although it is 2nd ed based it might give you some ideas.

We still have banded mail in pf and I think there are some shield and sword feats in pf as well. As for extra books for inspiration I am using the eternal rome supplament from green ronin which has a lot of good ideas going for it. Kind of why I'm just looking at feats atm since that's giving me a lot of ideas of how to equip and skill them out.

Grand Lodge

Bonus: Shield Focus. Teamwork Feat: Shield Wall. Human: Endurance.

Those are assuming they are level 1 fighters and not level 1 warriors.

If we were playing a 'parity' to the age of Rome as opposed to Pathfinder then its probably good to assume that Legionaries are fighters and a lot of their enemies (not all) are using the NPC warrior class instead. The Roman legions trained constantly.

Your average legionary would have been a fighter, not a cavalier. The Centurions, being raised from the ranks would be fighters with cavalier levels for those command effects.

Your Milage May Vary but I tend to think of the mainstream world in terms of level 1-2 rather than any one other than the most seasoned of soldiers being level 4+ so unless you want your ancient world populated with level 10 NPCs I'd low-ball the average legionary to level 1-2. Centurions to levels 3-4.


There is an entire archetype for that. The Tower shield specialist. Weapon focus/specialization (gladius), Shield focus (tower shield) and probably a couple of teamwork feats.

Grand Lodge

Nicos wrote:
There is an entire archetype for that. The Tower shield specialist. Weapon focus/specialization (gladius), Shield focus (tower shield) and probably a couple of teamwork feats.

Bingo! Had forgotten about it. Mind you the proper benefits of this archetype don't land until level 5.

Don't really see the need for weapon focus at level 1 though. These guys in a unit are very very hard to hit for a group of equivalent level foes. A few rounds of 50% hit chance will still see them win nearly everytime


Do not forget Defender of the society trait for more AC.

Grand Lodge

Nicos wrote:
Do not forget Defender of the society trait for more AC.

Not sure it applies but if you are open in trait choices, sure, its a favourite trait of mine.


But do not forget the offense either. if you are unhiteable but unable t kill your enemies then your enemies will start to ignore you and target your comrades.

Grand Lodge

Nicos wrote:
But do not forget the offense either. if you are unhiteable but unable t kill your enemies then your enemies will start to ignore you and target your comrades.

Who are, if we are talking a unit of legionaries rather than an individual PC, just as unhitable as you. You also have the option to aid another with more effect that the foe.

The reason I was sort of frowny on the trait was I thought the poster was after building Roman legionaries in general rather than a Roman PC who was/is a legionary and I see traits as PC options rather than NPC options.

If we are talking an individual PC rather than part of a NPC unit, then sure, add in the weapon focus


To be in a closed formation with all your team members is not that good in a world with spells like fireball and confusion.

Grand Lodge

You got that right for large units - so say units of the size of a Roman Century or even the Maniple but to have no unit structure at all is to not be a Roman legionary.

IF I were to successfully move Roman legions to Golarion AND have them deal with magic, I'd say they'd operate in units of 8 (the Contubernium). This is the number of legionaries that typically tented and messed together with 2 slaves to serve them. This is enough to form a small tortoise formation or to link with another unit to form a small shield wall to thinly hold a small section of the battlefield. They'd be more nimble and flexible in meeting up with other Contuberni to operate for small periods of time in a formation before dispersing again to their smaller units.

In situations where the Romans had counter magic or were assured of low chance of magical attack, I'd say they'd move and fight in units the size of the Maniple rather than the Century. However I also think that the Byzantine legions and tactics are more flexible that those of the Republic or early empire.

However saying that Roman units shouldn't be grouped together due to magic is saying like they shouldn't be grouped together because of automatic weapons and modern artillery. The Roman legion evolved in the absence of such concerns.

The OP only wanted to know how to make a Roman Legionary using PF as a rule set. "Could the Legions succeed in Golarion"? is worthy of a thread of its own.


Nicos wrote:
But do not forget the offense either. if you are unhiteable but unable t kill your enemies then your enemies will start to ignore you and target your comrades.

Your comrades are just as unhittable. That's what makes you a legion.


It's a shield wall. A fireball or lightning bolt will only penetrate if it can burn through a thin metal wall.
Real legionnaires went up against barbarians, especially in the Celtic isles.

Shadow Lodge

Goth Guru wrote:

It's a shield wall. A fireball or lightning bolt will only penetrate if it can burn through a thin metal wall.

Real legionnaires went up against barbarians, especially in the Celtic isles.

Actually if they are using tower shields in formation they may not be hurt at all. All they have to do is move in formation and continuously ready to pull total cover from their shields. If you have enough you could theoretically cover every side and provide everyone in the formation cover against the area attack which would negate their damage.


There was this special formation where they advanced like a "tortoise" with their shields covering all the angles.

A feat that allow that to avoid AoE woudl be great, because otherwise a bunch of AC 30 gys with low saves still can be easily defeated by gliterdust.


Nicos wrote:

There was this special formation where they advanced like a "tortoise" with their shields covering all the angles.

A feat that allow that to avoid AoE woudl be great, because otherwise a bunch of AC 30 gys with low saves still can be easily defeated by gliterdust.

Testudo, neat word.

Liberty's Edge

I had a player go for this style. Though he stated he wanted to play the Phalanx style and see how it went and wanted to play with a spear. I pointed him to the Phalanx Soldier Archetype for the Fighter in the APG. He got to level 17 before the game ended and that was a very powerful Archetype when they worked as a team. He took out a great deal due to what it allowed.


doc the grey wrote:
Goth Guru wrote:

It's a shield wall. A fireball or lightning bolt will only penetrate if it can burn through a thin metal wall.

Real legionnaires went up against barbarians, especially in the Celtic isles.
Actually if they are using tower shields in formation they may not be hurt at all. All they have to do is move in formation and continuously ready to pull total cover from their shields. If you have enough you could theoretically cover every side and provide everyone in the formation cover against the area attack which would negate their damage.

We are in agreement. A shield wall will stop most normal fireballs.


Since you can only provide full cover to one of four edges of the square, the corners would have a small opening. You could create a contiguous shield wall against one direction, but have to leave a small opening on both flanks.

Shadow Lodge

DM Barcas wrote:
Since you can only provide full cover to one of four edges of the square, the corners would have a small opening. You could create a contiguous shield wall against one direction, but have to leave a small opening on both flanks.

Corner man carries 2 tower shields.


You have one corner man, there's no opening. Visualize people! Imagine you are a general looking down on the training field from a hilltop. The slaves throwing beanbags won't get any in unless they get some height on those things.


Goth Guru wrote:
doc the grey wrote:
Goth Guru wrote:

It's a shield wall. A fireball or lightning bolt will only penetrate if it can burn through a thin metal wall.

Real legionnaires went up against barbarians, especially in the Celtic isles.
Actually if they are using tower shields in formation they may not be hurt at all. All they have to do is move in formation and continuously ready to pull total cover from their shields. If you have enough you could theoretically cover every side and provide everyone in the formation cover against the area attack which would negate their damage.
We are in agreement. A shield wall will stop most normal fireballs.

In a testudo sure, but in a shield wall they would have to be aware the fireball is coming. If it goes off above them or behind them is the readied action going to help them? Which edge do they choose to get cover along?

A fireball is effectively the same as an air burst artillery shell. A shield will give you total cover if you are directly below it but otherwise not.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

You know, you shouldn't forget to carry some Pilum. If possible, Roman Legionaries would open every battle by tossing a couple volleys of these javelins at the enemy.

Shadow Lodge

Son of the Veterinarian wrote:
You know, you shouldn't forget to carry some Pilum. If possible, Roman Legionaries would open every battle by tossing a couple volleys of these javelins at the enemy.

That's the plan. Right now most of this is going towards a roles block similar to what we've seen in the recent players companions for my home campaign. That way I can give my players a feel for the regions they are playing in in both mechanics and fluff.


A shame that in PF a pilum do not bypass shield bonus to armor class.


But... a successful Pilum attack negates the shield bonus until they use a standard action to remove it from the shield.

Every character I have has at least 1 of them, usually 2.


TGMaxMaxer wrote:

But... a successful Pilum attack negates the shield bonus until they use a standard action to remove it from the shield.

Every character I have has at least 1 of them, usually 2.

Oh, that happens when I trust in my memory and do not bother to read the text. The pilum is great in PF.

Shadow Lodge

Nicos wrote:
TGMaxMaxer wrote:

But... a successful Pilum attack negates the shield bonus until they use a standard action to remove it from the shield.

Every character I have has at least 1 of them, usually 2.

Oh, that happens when I trust in my memory and do not bother to read the text. The pilum is great in PF.

Yup. The plan for equipment is something like tower shields, banded mail, scale mail, chainmail, gladius, pilum, spears, daggers, and crossbows as a specialty option.


I think Combat Reflexes, Bodyguard and In Harm's Way would be good choices for a legionnaire.

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