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So thanks to this community for the kind reception for my"Way of the Angry Bear" Mnk/Drd build which is the best way to get to 12d8 unarmed strike damage by 20th leve...
What? Oh another way to get to 12d8... wait a minute, say that again?!
By 10th level?! What kind of unholy shenanigans do you have to pull... uh huh, Cave Druid Archetype and Monk, really? Well I guess that is legit.
So yes, ladies and germs, I present the conquerer Ooze. Haven't got a build hashed out yet, but the specifics are as follow.
1. Cave druids can shapeshift into oozes at lvl 10 (medium and small) and lvl 12 (tiny and large)
2. There is a medium ooze out there that does 7d8 damage (and depending on how you read the entry line also has a crit range of 18-20, but you might not get that as it depends on an entry). Pathfinder Core too (Beastiary 3). The Carnivorous Crystal ooze
3. Strong Jaw on 7d8 (conservatively thinking of 7d8 as 6d8) goes to 12d8.
4. Weapon Focus (slam) and Feral Combat training (Slam) means you can use this attack for every hit of a flurry of blows.
5. Profit?
Cons (as they are):
You might not get the gnarly crit range. (Though what do people think?)
As written, when shapeshifted into an ooze, Cave druids are blind, they lose their native modes of vision and don't get ooze blindsight from wildshape.
No natural armor bonus. Bummer.
But 12d8 for 4 attacks at lvl 10? Priceless.
So what do people think? Discuss.
prototype00
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You have to take Vicious Stomp as this build. And call it Viscous Stomp. You just can't not do that.
I could I suppose, but since this character is stuck at medium size while pulling this, it doesn't bode well for attempts to trip enemies. Though they can't trip you back, so that is something I suppose.
prototype00
Cast Echolocation (Blindsight 40ft 10mins/lvl) and you'll probably be all right. The blind thing really does seem like an oversight though, I've seen it faq'ed in other threads.
The cave domain also grants darkvision for hours/lvl equal to your wis+3 so that's pretty viable.
prototype00
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Is this "no vision" thing that oozes have a rule that is in the game? Where in the ooze stats does it say that? If I cast a spell that grants Darkvision, RAW, it grants darkvision. Magic!
Or am I mistaken on that?
prototype00
Hmm, one of those vague things that I can't say I know for sure, really.
Anyway, I've made a post on the ARG errata thread and faq'ed as well, hopefully they give the oozes their native blindsight back for Cave Druids.
On a separate topic, what do people think about the crit range, is it just part of the attack, or does it rely on descriptive text?
prototype00
Beg pardon? This character (heh, I haven't put any levels down on paper yet) would probably alternate druid and monk. After being able to become the conquerer ooze at lvl 10, the rest of the levels are free-ish. I would take monk levels to advance flurry, but other than that, yeah free.
prototype00
You need 10 Cave Druid levels to become an ooze.
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Looks like a druid7/monk3 to me, what with that 4th level spell, strong jaw.
The polymorph section of the magic rules says that it's the GM's call as to whether ooze form restricts your spellcasting! or makes your gear meld into you, etc.
Natural spell ought to cover that. Shapeshifting into an ooze is considered a Wildshape form for the Cave druid (its listed in the archetype under Wildshape), so spellcasting isn't a problem.
Your speed in ooze form is junk. I think that more than 7 druid levels is no good. The rest should be monk, not just for flurry, but also for the speed bonus.
Natural Spell and Shaping Focus require wild shape, which you don't get until 6th. Feral Combat Training requires Improved Unarmed Strike, which means either taking a monk level before your wild shape comes online, or being a tengu with claw attack (which gets wasted when you're an ooze).
I think if I was a GM, and a PC was a tengu with claw attack, taking Feral Combat Training (slam) would tell me that something's fishy. YMMV
Yep, one level of monk at least, I think is the plan. Is there anything stopping you from taking Weapon Focus (Slam) early? You can just tell your DM that its in prep for nice wildshape forms later (completely the truth).
So, drd4/mnk1/drd2/mnkX
1st Fleet? Combat Casting?
3rd Weapon Focus (slam) (feat wasted until 7th level!)
5th Feral Combat Training (slam) (also wasted until 7th level...)
7th Natural Spell
9th Shaping FocusUh, your best bet for race is to go human (for the extra feat) or half-orc (for the favored class bonus)...or half-elf for the dual-classed bonus, I guess
Well, so ugh, you waste two feats before you get your awesome combo, and beast shape III really shortchanges you on ooze powers (compared to animal and magical beast powers, pounce, etc.) I think you get the 7d8 damage, but not the crazy crit range, sadly...
Awesome build nonetheless, prototype
Thank ye, thank ye. For feat progression, I'd rather go...
Human (Worships Irori)
Druid (Cave Druid)1: Pick the Aquatic or Swamp Domain (gain channel energy) Channel Smite/Guided Hand
Druid 1/ Monk 1: Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist
Druid 2/ Monk 1: Weapon Focus (Slam)
Druid 4/ Monk 1: Feral Combat Training (Slam)
Druid 6/ Monk 1: Shaping Focus
Druid 7/ Monk 2: (Anything for the bonus feat really, deflect arrows?), Natural Spell
Druid 8/ Monk 3: Vital Strike
A wisdom based flurry build with vital strike as the 11th level pick (this character is never, ever pouncing, no DM would allow it :P) to deal 24d8 damage when moving next to a foe.
Is Beastiary 3 PFS legal, this might be the most damaging build for it, you do give up a bunch, but if you want 12d8 by lvl 10, this is the only way forward.
You need 10 Cave Druid levels to become an ooze.
Or 6 cave druid levels and shaping focus since it is a wild shape choice.
prototype00
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Actually, by RAW, you can see just fine as an ooze. You do not gain the ooze subtypes (though cave driuds get some of its beneficial effects), and "blind" is not an ability you can gain from beast shape at any level. Likewise, your sight is not an extraordinary or supernatural ability related to your original form, so it's not removed when you polymorph.
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I'm fairly sure sight is an extraordinary ability related to your original form by virtue of eyes.
uh, two things wrong with Guided Hand
1st: You're using beast shape III, which does net you a +4 Strength bonus. It'd be a shame to effectively waste it
True, true. I'd rather it be +6 but yes +4 is a nice boost.
2nd: Irori's favored weapon is the unarmed strike. The Conquerer Ooze is flurrying with slam attacks. It's not the same thing. Guided Hand would let you +Wis to attack with unarmed strikes (monk damage, nonlethal option, etc.), not with slam attacks.
While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.
That should make the Guided Hand bonus apply to Slam attacks, correct?
I was thinking that the lack of natural armor bonus (although, for a druid, +Wis to AC), you might consider the MoMS archetype for Crane Style.
Monk archetypes that give up flurry are verboten as Feral Combat training only allows you to use the Natural attack more than once if you are using flurry of blows by RAW.
I too would like to take one of these other archetypes, but in the absence of which, I think a Wis based flurry build is superior, since you can't use the natural attack in a non-flurry iterative sequence.
Also, just checked the PFS checklist and Beastiary 3 and all monsters therein are totally legal for Druid Wildshaping. Mwa ha ha!
prototype00
I'm so using this for an NPC encounter
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I'm fairly sure sight is an extraordinary ability related to your original form by virtue of eyes.
The three examples they list are keen senses, scent, and darkvision. These are all amplified versions of mundane senses. Sight itself, unless you've found an entry stating to the contrary, isn't a special ability at all, extraordinary or otherwise. It's never listed in a statblock any more than the ability to breath air or hear.
Let's say for a moment, though, that sight is an extraordinary ability related your original form, and thus is lost when you're under a shapechanging polymorph effect. Unfortunately, beast shape doesn't list sight as one of the abilities that it grants. So I wild shape into a lion and lose my sight, and nothing about wild shape or the lion gives it back to me. This would, in fact, be true of any creature I could turn into using any spell. So, to summarize: if sight is extraordinary, then any polymorphed creature is blind. While you'd be more than welcome to make that ruling in your own game, your players might not thank you for it.
I'm fairly sure sight is an extraordinary ability related to your original form by virtue of eyes.The three examples they list are keen senses, scent, and darkvision. These are all amplified versions of mundane senses. Sight itself, unless you've found an entry stating to the contrary, isn't a special ability at all, extraordinary or otherwise. It's never listed in a statblock any more than the ability to breath air or hear.
Let's say for a moment, though, that sight is an extraordinary ability related your original form, and thus is lost when you're under a shapechanging polymorph effect. Unfortunately, beast shape doesn't list sight as one of the abilities that it grants. So I wild shape into a lion and lose my sight, and nothing about wild shape or the lion gives it back to me. This would, in fact, be true of any creature I could turn into using any spell. So, to summarize: if sight is extraordinary, then any polymorphed creature is blind. While you'd be more than welcome to make that ruling in your own game, your players might not thank you for it.
This isn't the Rules Questions forum, so let's not ignore common sense in favor of RAW.
Your original form has eyes. Your original form can see. A lion has eyes. A lion can see. If you polymorph into something that has eyes, you can see.
An ooze has no eyes. You do not automatically gain blindsight. If you polymorph into an ooze, you are blind.
See? When you're willing to do your own thinking, the issue is perfectly simple.
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This isn't the Rules Questions forum, so let's not ignore common sense in favor of RAW.
Your original form has eyes. Your original form can see. A lion has eyes. A lion can see. If you polymorph into something that has eyes, you can see.
An ooze has no eyes. You do not automatically gain blindsight. If you polymorph into an ooze, you are blind.
See? When you're willing to do your own thinking, the issue is perfectly simple.
The rules of Pathfinder extend well beyond the Rules Forum. House rules, however, are best relegated to the Home Brew section.
EDIT: So if I turn into an Elemental, am I blind? They certainly don't have eyes. If I turn into a plant, am I blind? They don't even have faces.
I'm just amused by the idea of an ooze with eyeballs floating in its protoplasm like some sort of eldritch jello.
prototype00
Yeah, I hadn't thought of that, blind is an ooze trait, so when you wildshape, you don't get it.
I guess that makes up for the loss of the great crit range.
Eyes floating in Jello it is then!
*Note* While you don't get the ooze trait of immunity to poisons, sneak attacks and critical hits, the class gives you these resistances in ooze form anyway, hooray!
prototype00
This doesn't work. You gain a medium slam attack of an ooze, its damage dice are determined by the universal monster's rules.
Just wanted to respond to this. Where is it written in the book something that would give you this idea?
In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks. These attacks are based on your base attack bonus, modified by your Strength or Dexterity as appropriate, and use your Strength modifier for determining damage bonuses.
That is the bit in the polymorph sub school of transmutation (that covers wildshape as well) that talks about natural attacks gained. It says nothing about Universal Monster Rules or size, it just says read off the attack line and get that attack.
What is your source for your argument that this doesn't work?
prototype00
Has it been ruled somewhere you can take guided hand? After all, swamp domain doesn't give channel energy, it gives a class feature called Natural Healing (Su):. There was blurb in the FAQ this week that seems to indicate it works, or cannot depending on how you read it.
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qto
Has it been ruled somewhere you can take guided hand? After all, swamp domain doesn't give channel energy, it gives a class feature called Natural Healing (Su):. There was blurb in the FAQ this week that seems to indicate it works, or cannot depending on how you read it.
http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qto
Well the fact that when you have this class ability you can take feats such as extra channel and Improved channel both of which require the Channel Energy Class Feature, should mean that it counts as Channel Energy for the purpose of feats, correct?
Just a slightly more limited version of such.
prototype00
It is specifically a type of "Natural Weapon" of the sort practiced by elementals, vampires, mummies and oozes. In fact it is most reminiscent of the unarmed strike, just with a bit more inhuman heft behind it.
Why would you think this is "silly"?
prototype00
Hmm, just a bit of noodling here:
Furious Finish is pretty rad, too bad I can't rage.
Or can I? Barbarians require non-lawful, but Martial Artists don't have to be lawful.
So 7 levels of Druid, 8 Levels of Monk (Martial Artist) to get the second flurry attack and immunity to fatigue and 5 levels of Barbarian to Rage Cycle (and boost BaB for Greater Vital Strike).
That's a nice combo, 48d8 maximized damage is 384, and you can basically repeat this round after round until your rage expires.
prototype00
Have you thought of taking Improved Natural Attack to potentiallly pump it up to 16d8 per slam? That's easily 32d8, 48d8, and 64d8 with VS, IVS and GVS respectively.
Have you thought of taking Improved Natural Attack to potentiallly pump it up to 16d8 per slam? That's easily 32d8, 48d8, and 64d8 with VS, IVS and GVS respectively.
Two things:
1. Improved natural attack wouldn't stack with Strong Jaws, as they basically both do the same thing.
2. I don't know what the progression past 12d8 for a natural attack is. Maybe there isn't one? Perhaps the damage of a Lvl 20 colossal monk is the maximum someone can do on an unarmed strike?
Alright, alright, you're really going to go Guided Hand if at, what, level 16 you're getting a +8 boost to Strength?
Uh, how do you get +16 BaB at level 19?
drd7/mnk8/brb5 gets you +16...but at level 20. drd7/mnk5/brb8 is the same.
No you are right, this character can't get to +16 BaB in a quick enough time frame.
In that event, I'd probably take drd8 (no loss of BaB, extra casting of Strong Jaws)/ Mnk 8 (to get the extra attack when flurrying) / BrB 4 (and take Swift foot for both rage power picks to help with closing. Attack of the 50ft speed ooze!)
Or heck, go Mnk 10 (no penalty to BaB when flurrying, -1 when moving and attacking), pick up Medusa's Wrath without all its annoying pre-reqs, pick up Ability Focus (Stunning Fist) and Mantis Style and you get two get two extra attacks on a very dependable Stunning Fist. (Base DC 10 + 10 (1/2 level) + 13 (Wis) + 1 (Martial Artist) +2 (Ability Focus) +2 (Mantis Style) = 38)
Another reason to keep Wis sweet maybe?
But that only leaves you with 2 levels of BrB which is a shame. (Fewer rounds of rage, only one rage power). (Still with a good Con and rage cycling, you can still pull the 288 guaranteed damage 12 times/day).
prototype00
The Vital Strike tree, perhaps with some way to acquire Spring Attack, would make this a Blob o' Zipping Death-Smooshing. Barring foes with Snake Style or Crane whatever-it-is, you're deal on pseudopods.
Extra Rage = +6 rounds/day IIRC. ;)
The Vital Strike tree, perhaps with some way to acquire Spring Attack, would make this a Blob o' Zipping Death-Smooshing. Barring foes with Snake Style or Crane whatever-it-is, you're deal on pseudopods.
Extra Rage = +6 rounds/day IIRC. ;)
Unfortunately, Vital Strike can't be used with spring attack per the recent Faqs.
prototype00
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The only problem I can see with this build is that without the EX ability:
Razor Sharp (Ex) A carnivorous crystal's slam attack deals devastating piercing and slashing damage, and threatens a critical hit on a roll of 18, 19, or 20.
the slam will probably deal the basic slam damage and not the crazy numbers you are postulateing (bolded for emphasis).
This ability is what makes the slam deal as much damage as it does, as almost all natural attacks conform to these rules unless otherwise noted in the creatures entree (usually with a similar ability).
The only problem I can see with this build is that without the EX ability:
PRD said wrote:
Razor Sharp (Ex) A carnivorous crystal's slam attack deals devastating piercing and slashing damage, and threatens a critical hit on a roll of 18, 19, or 20.
the slam will probably deal the basic slam damage and not the crazy numbers you are postulateing (bolded for emphasis).
This ability is what makes the slam deal as much damage as it does, as almost all natural attacks conform to these rules unless otherwise noted in the creatures entree (usually with a similar ability).
Errm, isn't the only thing spelt out in that ability the improved crit range? It makes no claim at all to the 7d8 damage.
And it is not true that natural attacks conform to the universal rules, the T-Rex for example does 4d6 damage on its bite when it should technically by the universal monster rules be doing 2d8 and no one says that that is due to any special ability. *Or at least try to convince your players that it doesn't work the way they think it does when they manage to polymorph into one.*
I think if you're going to be hitting consistently for over 250 a hit, uh, Stunning Fist doesn't matter that much.
"I hit. 288 damage. Oh, and Stunning Fist DC 35."
"Yes, the meat-spattered crater is stunned. Good job."
Less silly, Medusa's Wrath and Vital Strike don't mix well. I think you're far more likely to never get to use a full attack from a GM who can see you fingering all those dice. Still, there are ways to close with an enemy that withstood your first assault: the Step Up tree comes to mind
Quite true, and a strength build now makes more sense I think if you take stunning fist out of the equation.
prototype00
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True, however it is within 1 size variation and has no other abilities associated with the bite. If the T-rex had an attack for that far out of line with its size I would expect there to be a line about it. Also as per the PRD "Table: Natural Attacks by Size lists some of the most common types of natural attacks and their classifications." these are listed as most common and 4d6 compared to 2d8 is a lot different than 7d8 compared to 1d4. I think its a wonderful idea but most likely the massive amount of damage comes from the ability not just a natural attack. I believe thats most likely why (as I bolded above) the attack is called out in the ability as doing massive damage.
True, however it is within 1 size variation and has no other abilities associated with the bite. If the T-rex had an attack for that far out of line with its size I would expect there to be a line about it. Also as per the PRD "Table: Natural Attacks by Size lists some of the most common types of natural attacks and their classifications." these are listed as most common and 4d6 compared to 2d8 is a lot different than 7d8 compared to 1d4. I think its a wonderful idea but most likely the massive amount of damage comes from the ability not just a natural attack. I believe thats most likely why (as I bolded above) the attack is called out in the ability as doing massive damage.
Could it not be calling out (and I apply Occam's Razor here) the increased threat range of the attack in question, when it refers to devastating slashing and piercing damage, rather than the damage (as it actually makes no mention of base damage in the vein of "The Crystal Ooze does a lot more damage than its size, 7d8, rather than 1d6")?
In any event, by RAW, the only thing that is lost from the attack when shapeshifting into a Carnivorous Crystal Ooze is the increased threat range, as it makes no mention of anything else to do with the attack.
prototype00
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True, however it is within 1 size variation and has no other abilities associated with the bite. If the T-rex had an attack for that far out of line with its size I would expect there to be a line about it. Also as per the PRD "Table: Natural Attacks by Size lists some of the most common types of natural attacks and their classifications." these are listed as most common and 4d6 compared to 2d8 is a lot different than 7d8 compared to 1d4. I think its a wonderful idea but most likely the massive amount of damage comes from the ability not just a natural attack. I believe thats most likely why (as I bolded above) the attack is called out in the ability as doing massive damage.Could it not be calling out (and I apply Occam's Razor here) the increased threat range of the attack in question, rather than the damage (as it actually makes no mention of base damage in the vein of "The Crystal Ooze does a lot more damage than its size, 7d8, rather than 1d6")?
prototype00
I don't think so, unfortunately there is an and in there:
Razor Sharp (Ex) A carnivorous crystal's slam attack deals devastating piercing and slashing damage, threatens a critical hit on a roll of 18, 19, or 20.
Edit: Although it could be calling out that it does piercing and slashing the fact they put the word devastating where they did leaves me to believe they thought that much damage on an attack needed an ability to justify it.
Right, fair enough, we can agree that when shapeshifted into a Crystal Ooze a druid doesn't deal devastating piercing and slashing damage and doesn't threaten a critical hit on a roll of 18, 19 or 20.
What it does do though, is deal 7d8 bludgeoning damage as is normal for a Crystal Ooze's slam attack as is delineated in the Polymorph description under the Transmutation school heading.
Basically what I am saying is that if you take away things that aren't even mentioned in the description (7d8 damage), then you are not applying the rules as written.
prototype00