Toxicant from something.. one of the compaion guides. makes poisons not a throw away thing I think..
Sadly it disappeared from d20 for some reason...
It (and some of the other Dirty Tactics Toolbox stuff) accidentally went live too early. It'll return two weeks after the official street date for the DTT is past.
Toxicant from something.. one of the compaion guides. makes poisons not a throw away thing I think..
Sadly it disappeared from d20 for some reason...
It (and some of the other Dirty Tactics Toolbox stuff) accidentally went live too early. It'll return two weeks after the official street date for the DTT is past.
Yeah noticed that.
Its up at the moment. (well seemingly most of it anyway) the archetype is up right now.
I'm not sure if the street date was the paizo site release date, or the one on amazon and the paizo was early. Amazon lists October, Paizo was 2 weeks ago.
Either way. I intend to buy the book since there is a lot in there and I have no clue how to search by source on D20.
And now it's up, so expect to be seeing it get a review soon enough.
some things aren't up. Like poison bullet.. but the archetype is good for review.
I personally really like it and feel like I can build on it and bombs in a great way.
I have no clue if there are any new discoveries in the book though. I would think so probably. or magic items, new poisons, or spells.
I'm making one of these guys who uses injection spears (dex based one handed via small or via a 3rd party feat and swashbuckler.. for style mostly). So far it looks pretty amusing. I'm taking some good notes from your guide as well. Thanks and I look forward to your thoughts.
tiny mauler's strength is off:
tiny->medium is +4 str (uses polymorph rules and not universal monster rules, as stated by the developer) so a compsognathus would get to 8+4+2= 14str, and not 18 str
malignant poison should really be blue for poison builds.
by the time you get it, it is just 6secs every 10mins to get the benefits of it. Basically becoming "+4 DC to every single poison you use", along side it's other benefits. It has no uses/day, it doesn't spoil the poison, for what's worth, it is effectivly permanent change.
i didn't see the new poison dc feat from dirty tactics in there. while it has a cap, it helps boost the dc of cheap poisons to respectable levels. While pernicious stab raises by +1/2d6 sneak with no limit, this one is +1dc/1d6 with limit 15+1/2character level.
even still, getting a 50gp poison (crafted for like 17gp) dc 12 to dc 20 by lvl 10 for a vivisectionist is quite nice, especially since with sticky and etc you basically can make a dc 20 applied on attack, save or suck for ~3gp /charge.
on poisons, i didn't see blue whinnies and fire water saliva, two of the best (value for money) poisons imo
with the new scurring swarmer feat, i would rate ratfolk as blue for vivisectionist, especially since with a mauler familiar they always autoflank.
for a str based vivi, powerful poisoning is also quite nice (+1 to dc, scaling like power attack (so +2 @bab4, +3@bab8, etc) with same max as treacherous toxin (15+1/2lvl)
my own poison build now looks something like that:
ratfolk vivi/toxicant:
1)finesse
2)mutagen
3)craft/ability focus
4)feral mutagen
5)scurring swarmer
6)sticky poison
6)familiar (mauler owl, for free flying mount and flanking partner)
7)outflank
8)celestial poisons
9)treacherous toxin
10)malignant poison
11)piranha/ability focus
12)greater mutagen
12)wings/concetrate poison/whatever
with a +1 menacing tailblade, i get +7 to attack from my familiar's back, there is also the trait for +1 to attack with a poisoned weapon, and with 19 uses of my own poison/day, each lasting 7 hits, i can keep the tailblade and my claws pretty much perma poisoned.
poison dc for the class poison should be about 23, 25 with ability focus, 29 with malignant. the sickened +shaken condition giving them -4 to subsequent saves. If i want to splurge, for 2.4gp/hit i can try to apply a dc 21 nausea poison (preferably after i first hit them with my own poison for the -4 to saves), or for ~5gp with a 1con/unconsiousness. With celestial poisons, most of those conditions affect the traditional enemies of a poison build.
now if an elemental comes out... i hide:P
edit:
new alchemist discovery (not that impressive):
Quote:
Poisoned Explosive*: When an
alchemist creates a bomb, he
can apply a dose of contact or
injury poison to it, as
if applying poison
to a weapon. If the
poisoned bomb hits
its target, the bomb
deals damage as
normal, but the
target must also succeed
at a saving throw against the
poison or be affected by that
poison. No other creatures
are affected by the poison.
An alchemist must be at least
4th level and have the poison
use class feature before
selecting this discovery.
* Poisoned explosive
doesn’t stack with
other discoveries that
modify bombs.
Hum. Isn't that a slightly worse version of the ninja smoke bomb-poison bomb that hits an area? Though I don't think that is the horrible discovery Its effectively long range touch AC poisoning. so it has a place though. Would be pretty good for the Alchemist who focuses down rather than spreading out bombs (that extract that takes away the area damage and pumps damage for instance). Really would've been nice if it applied at mass. Hell I'd take applying to all via inhale over some of the damage if I could have chosen.
would have been nice to poison trap bombs too
I might pick it up on my injection spear bombing poison guy (really would do better with not injection spear. but I want it. Inspired swash and or Acebolt too would make a lot of usability) (Wish I knew easier way to use a spear one handed/via dex). With toxicant and that bomb discovery you can touch AC poison close or at range. It is a shame it doesn't work with others.. I would so very happily use a bomb laced with poison, doing confusion and a few other status effects.
------
Poison Shot Feat/deed still isn't released/up or I keep finding the old page perhaps. I don't remember the wording but it was letting you poison bullets without that specia lbullet I guess
Note/edit.
Actually can Toxicant's poison even be applied to poisoned explosive? Toxicant doesn't list what kind of poison it is.. Though it has to be contact poison since you can use it as a touch attack and injury I guess. Right?
Hum. Isn't that a slightly worse version of the ninja smoke bomb-poison bomb that hits an area? Though I don't think that is the horrible discovery Its effectively long range touch AC poisoning. so it has a place though. Would be pretty good for the Alchemist who focuses down rather than spreading out bombs (that extract that takes away the area damage and pumps damage for instance). Really would've been nice if it applied at mass. Hell I'd take applying to all via inhale over some of the damage if I could have chosen.
would have been nice to poison trap bombs too
I might pick it up on my injection spear bombing poison guy (really would do better with not injection spear. but I want it. Inspired swash and or Acebolt too would make a lot of usability) (Wish I knew easier way to use a spear one handed/via dex). With toxicant and that bomb discovery you can touch AC poison close or at range. It is a shame it doesn't work with others.. I would so very happily use a bomb laced with poison, doing confusion and a few other status effects.
------
Poison Shot Feat/deed still isn't released/up or I keep finding the old page perhaps. I don't remember the wording but it was letting you poison bullets without that specia lbullet I guess
Note/edit.
Actually can Toxicant's poison even be applied to poisoned explosive? Toxicant doesn't list what kind of poison it is.. Though it has to be contact poison since you can use it as a touch attack and injury I guess. Right?
poison bullet deed is actually quite awesome, since it actually fires the poison in a cone, affecting everyone inside said cone, even bypassing onset timer.
Quote:
Prerequisite: Amateur GunslingerUC or gritUC class feature.
Benefit: You can spend 1 grit point to load your firearm
with 1 dose of inhaled or ingested poison as a move action.
This action has no chance of exposing you to the poison
(as if you had the poison use class feature). Shooting a
firearm loaded with a poison in this manner is a standard
action that provokes attacks of opportunity and sprays out
the poison in a 15-foot cone. Any creatures caught in the
blast take no damage but are exposed to this poison and
must each immediately attempt a save against the poison
as though the onset time had elapsed.
Got some of those edited, but unlike the Archives, PFSRD doesn't let me sort by new content (a damn shame), so I haven't gotten to look over the new feats. I've only able to search specific things like discoveries and archetypes where I know where to find, making adding feats far more arduous.
I generally save feats for when the AoN puts them up, while discoveries/archetypes get first go since they're so easy to find. It'd be too much work now for the PF SRD to do something like AoN, so I can wait on some of them, although I can try to add what's been mentioned in this thread so far.
Got some of those edited, but unlike the Archives, PFSRD doesn't let me sort by new content (a damn shame), so I haven't gotten to look over the new feats. I've only able to search specific things like discoveries and archetypes where I know where to find, making adding feats far more arduous.
I generally save feats for when the AoN puts them up, while discoveries/archetypes get first go since they're so easy to find. It'd be too much work now for the PF SRD to do something like AoN, so I can wait on some of them, although I can try to add what's been mentioned in this thread so far.
potion wise:
i find elixir of elemental protection VASTLY superior to protection from element potion
elixir of spirit sight is also amazing for it's cost
a few more noteworthy potions (imo) are:
nondetection, tongues, waterbreathing, neutralize poison, remove blind/deaf (get the utility for when needed)
fickle winds/life bubble (exploit that early access lists:P)
magic circle agains alignment (as it is written, it is one of the few spells you can cast to affect others as well, courtesy of being an emanation)
Went through the Hyde part of the build and saw you liked the vivisectionist. No disagreement there, but I was thinking about what to do when that archetype is not legal, the biggest being pfs.
Went through the Hyde part of the build and saw you liked the vivisectionist. No disagreement there, but I was thinking about what to do when that archetype is not legal, the biggest being pfs.
Beastmorph still works fine here, although it's harder to get something going earlier in PFS with the level 12 cap, and beastmorph really needs its 10th level ability to shine.
I'd consider still going beastmorph, but there's no real substitute for vivisectionist sadly.
Also a shoutout to Zhang Kaiyan for donating to the guide, thanks a lot! Donation link is in the introduction to the guide for anyone else interested, and I'll be adding the dirty trick stuff once it's added to the archives of nethys so I can make sure I don't miss anything.
Considering doing a dex based melee alchemist but I cant seem to get it to work right. It's really feat intensive for not a lot of damage. The biggest issue is that reduce person lowers damage dice and that I can't really two-weapon fight with an alchemist because I need a free hand for bombs/extracts etc.
Any tips? Even just on weapons you think might work? I'm going the weapon finess/slashing grace route because I don't think 3 levels of unchained rogue is worth the loss in spell progression.
Any tips? Even just on weapons you think might work? I'm going the weapon finess/slashing grace route because I don't think 3 levels of unchained rogue is worth the loss in spell progression.
I have a really fun and effective one based out of inspired swashbuckler, and fening grace.
I personally avoid reduce person. I dont' think its worth my time. but I'm weird with regard s to buffs. (i'm usually the secondary fighter guy so I tend to give buffs to the main guy rather than using on my own. Because I can back up and pop an extract or pop a bomb when i'm in trouble).
That one dip pretty much synched my main troubles. Though I ended up double dipping into Ace bolt and carrying a repeating light crossbow (Int to grit/panache so I got to touch AC with grit use). Since I was a switch hitter. That dip was worth it for me.
I also picked up the two self healing discoveries for self healing. Not amazing but has its uses. Also snagged combat reflexes. Most of the time I deflected a lot of the troubles.
Reduce person on a small sized panache user is good after you get the blue scarf because it eliminates the tiny reach problem.
That said, my own dex based melee alch uses natural attacks. Using claw/claw/bite means you pretty much always have a free hand for extracts. Also your accuracy doesn't suffer, you can put abilities on your aomf and rely on gmf for raw ench bonuses, less feat intensive due to no need for twf feats and etc
You may consider explaining how the status effects at every 3 levels works.
i.e. some folks seem to not be sure if the "replaces" means that it if you chose that side effect, you automatically upgrade at the unlocked level. or if it just means you can no longer choose that weakened version when choosing new effects.
example: 9th—blinded (replaces dazzled)
Granted I gotta admit I'm not the most sure either. Though I think I understand it right. It took a reading and looking at previous similiar situations
but chances are folks will ask you or on the thread themselves later on so couldn't hurt to mention.
It actually says exactly what happens in the previous sentence:
Quote:
At higher alchemist levels, the toxicant gains access to stronger conditions; some replace lower-level conditions, which must be selected first.
What is the confusion about?
You get to pick from a list.
At higher you gain access to a bigger list
If you want to select an effect that replaces another, you need to first have the 1st one selected
You lose the old, you gain the new.
It seems pretty straightforward
Its a matter of snipping a potential problem early. (I missed it on my first go, (the part about it must be chosen the first time) and then caught it on the second read (after all the first time I was more excited about a new toy to play with rather than fine details)
The forum is full of questions that are by people who missed a line or misunderstood a detail. Hell PFS it happens all the time I hear.
The way it is set up (have to pick up the pre version) gives an illusion of more choices instead of how it sort of just funnels you to a few specific conditions.
Since at 9 if you pick up dazzled it auto becomes blinded. Effectively built this always leads to the same end set up of conditions, just slightly different path depending on how you chose your stuff on the way.
and I've had at least one person lament that they have to improve it. THey prefer Dazed over Staggered; since the poison effectively reapplies every failed save.
Basically if folks in my small social network asked about it chances are at least a few more will be curious. A throw away line or example in the poison section is a pretty easy stopgap.
Its a matter of snipping a potential problem early. (I missed it on my first go, (the part about it must be chosen the first time) and then caught it on the second read (after all the first time I was more excited about a new toy to play with rather than fine details)
The forum is full of questions that are by people who missed a line or misunderstood a detail. Hell PFS it happens all the time I hear.
The way it is set up (have to pick up the pre version) gives an illusion of more choices instead of how it sort of just funnels you to a few specific conditions.
Since at 9 if you pick up dazzled it auto becomes blinded. Effectively built this always leads to the same end set up of conditions, just slightly different path depending on how you chose your stuff on the way.
and I've had at least one person lament that they have to improve it. THey prefer Dazed over Staggered; since the poison effectively reapplies every failed save.
Basically if folks in my small social network asked about it chances are at least a few more will be curious. A throw away line or example in the poison section is a pretty easy stopgap.
It does NOT autobecome anything.
You need to choose the new condition.
It just has an additional requirement of having the first power.
-Sorry for derailing the guide specific discussion.-
toxicant question/confirming since I've managed to confuse my brain:
Well actually now I've just plain confused myself.
Conditions must be pre selected to be able to take the higher level version later . that is fine.
"The following conditions are available at the given alchemist levels"
So can you only chose from the listed things at that specific level or can you chose from the past levels?
I am assuming you can pick the past levels options just fine, Since otherwise level 15 would have no choices. Which woudln't make any sense; as its 3 and every 3 after.
So lv3: bleed Lv6: Dazed Lv 9 fatigued lv 12 exhausted lv 15 staggared lv 18 stunned End result: Int damage+Bleed+stunned at level 18 reapplies at failed saves
is a valid path correct?
Basically if you want Stun at 18 you're required to invest 5 out of the 6 choices you can have. (3,6,9,12,15,18) (only other paths are bleed, or dazzled into blind.) Makes it pretty easy choices depending on if you are going to 18 or not then.
-Sorry for derailing the guide specific discussion.-
** spoiler omitted **
basically correct. if you want stun, you get stun+ 1 more condition (bleed, sicken, or shaken).
if you dont want stun, you have much more freedom to build the conditions.
p.e. i'm aiming for sickened, dazed, exhausted and either blind or shaken+dazzled.
there are quite a few options available, and only a limited pool, being gated even more with prerequisites, so i feel there will be quite a few good builds out there (p.e. going for blind if you want sneak and don't have an easy flanking buddy, going for the "big guns" (stun), going for a lot of lesser conditions, etc)
Thankies. I actually like blind alot in general. but I think I'll mostly always change depending on what the game's end levels might be I suppose. Though I do really like Bleed and daze. since the effects are reapplied every time they fail the save. that and I like the idea of bleeding dazed blind enemy getting wholloped I suppose. mental picture appealing.
Occult Adventure spells are up, barely anything to mention, but it's updated for OA now, can't think of anything else in OA worth including, let me know if I'm wrong here.
N. Jolly, I did a quick search of the the thread, but didn't see anything. Why's the Thuvian Alchemist PrC bad? The only thing I see in your guide about it to stay away from it.
N. Jolly, I did a quick search of the the thread, but didn't see anything. Why's the Thuvian Alchemist PrC bad? The only thing I see in your guide about it to stay away from it.
Oh man, I'd actually forgotten about this trash heap of a PrC.
1. Healing Solution is terrible. 2 extracts for a healing extract? Really? FREAKING REALLY? And it has a time limit? You know alchemist can just take a minute to MAKE a healing extract, right?
2. Everything in the Natural Discovery list is an insult, it's painfully limiting, and doesn't help achieve any goal other than to be a heal bot.
3. 1/2 BAB and only good Will save are just insulting, and remove you as a front liner, as well as slowed bomb progression and no bomb discoveries make it terrible for bombers too, the only people who could handle the reduced BAB.
4. Not to mention the d6 hit die and the 2 skill points per level, we're just tanking everything to heal better, and it's garbage.
On a side note, Eldritch Poisoner has been added to the guide, my review? Stick with Toxicant, easily the better of the two poison based archetypes.
I was mostly looking at it as a potential option for a skill monkey / healer alchemist; a useful companion for a party with Thuvian First Law / Pure Legion types who won't / can't take divine cures and condition removing magic.
There's some neat (in my opinion) stuff for the alchemist in Ultimate Intrigue, any chance of the guide getting updated with the new content?
The backlog of things to be added is:
Arcane Anthologies
Blood of Shadows
Ultimate Intrigue
Seeing as I am poor (as always, donations are accepted), I'm waiting for all of these to hit Archives of Nethys, as they have this great sorting system for new content that makes my job a LOT easier. Until that point, I probably won't go too heavy on them.
There's a much stronger chance of the archetypes being reviewed before other content however, since they're a lot easier to locate on PFSRD20, but things like spells/items/etc are more difficult to track down there, making it far too difficult for me to be able to research them all in a timely fashion.
I still need to finish star coding this guide, but right now I'm working on getting out another project, which means everything else has hit the back burner. I haven't forgotten about this guide, I just have other things I need to get done, as well as waiting for the Archives to update.
There's some neat (in my opinion) stuff for the alchemist in Ultimate Intrigue, any chance of the guide getting updated with the new content?
The backlog of things to be added is:
Arcane Anthologies
Blood of Shadows
Ultimate Intrigue
Seeing as I am poor (as always, donations are accepted), I'm waiting for all of these to hit Archives of Nethys, as they have this great sorting system for new content that makes my job a LOT easier. Until that point, I probably won't go too heavy on them.
There's a much stronger chance of the archetypes being reviewed before other content however, since they're a lot easier to locate on PFSRD20, but things like spells/items/etc are more difficult to track down there, making it far too difficult for me to be able to research them all in a timely fashion.
I still need to finish star coding this guide, but right now I'm working on getting out another project, which means everything else has hit the back burner. I haven't forgotten about this guide, I just have other things I need to get done, as well as waiting for the Archives to update.
Good to hear. Thanks for taking the time to answer.
Question for ya N Jolly- Grenadier and Bolt Ace. Think they'd go well together? Get to shoot them with a bolt that deals Dex-to-Damage, then explodes is the thought. Think it's worth a shot?
Are there any potions that would be better suited for Bountiful bottle instead of just using alchemical allocation? I'm thinking something with the duration of min/lvl so you could quickly drink it during or just before combat. Do magical elixirs(the things you buy) count as potions?
I've been using the guide to make an NPC (great guide, btw), but I noticed an issue. Your Hyde sample uses Arcane Strike, but SLAs don't allow you to qualify for that feat. Spell Knowledge discovery would let you sneak that in, though. Food for thought. Also might want to check some of the damage equations.
Question for ya N Jolly- Grenadier and Bolt Ace. Think they'd go well together? Get to shoot them with a bolt that deals Dex-to-Damage, then explodes is the thought. Think it's worth a shot?
I'm iffy on this since it requires a 5 level dip. Personally, I'd just go straight grenadier, your damage should be fine.
Woodoodoo wrote:
Are there any potions that would be better suited for Bountiful bottle instead of just using alchemical allocation? I'm thinking something with the duration of min/lvl so you could quickly drink it during or just before combat. Do magical elixirs(the things you buy) count as potions?
I'm almost certain elixirs count as potions, and I'll stand by AA as the best bountiful bottle drink.
darkerthought7 wrote:
I've been using the guide to make an NPC (great guide, btw), but I noticed an issue. Your Hyde sample uses Arcane Strike, but SLAs don't allow you to qualify for that feat. Spell Knowledge discovery would let you sneak that in, though. Food for thought. Also might want to check some of the damage equations.
Yeah, fun fact, the reason for that is because that character hasn't been changed since the garbage errata that ruined that combo. And yeah, I'll have to redo the damage calcs for that when I finally get back to this guide. I'm really just waiting on the Archives to update, but I know the person who runs them is really busy, so that's why I haven't done anything with the guide in forever. I also need to finish color coding, but this guide presents 3 times the work with that. I'd seriously be willing to give someone access to edit the guide if they were willing to finish doing the star ratings for it.
The star rating is just putting stars equal to your color right? I could add stars to all the colored options.
That is quite literally it, yes. If you're willing to do this, send me an email address that I can allow to edit the guide and I'll give you access to it. I've seen you around before, and you don't seem like someone who'd vandalize a guide.
A buddy of mine is obsessed with the alchemist. He's already told me of some super funny combos, and he loves poison. I could coax a build or two out of him for review for you as well. I saw you lacked a poisoner sample in the guide. And I know he has a few feat combos in mind for you to consider when you have the time. I'll post again with those when I can milk them from him.
Greetings fellow devotees of the alchemical arts, I am rather curious what people's opinions are about the Dimensional Excavator? I am also curious what, if any other archetypes you would pair with it?
...I'll stand by AA as the best bountiful bottle drink.
Except Alchemical Allocation is personal target, and can't be made into a potion. You do the same with Orchid's Drop in the guide:
Chasing the Philosopher's Stone wrote:
As long as you’re using this with Alchemical Allocation, the price tag for it isn’t terrible
Yeah, that's my bad, I'll try to change that later, but updating this guide isn't super high on my list with all the stuff I have. Thanks for bringing it up though so I can get it cleared up.
What are your thoughts on the Metamorph archetype? Any good way to make it work? If you are adding it soon I can wait to read it.
I'd say the way to make it work is to play a Goliath Druid and ignore the existence of this archetype altogether. The druid gets most of the same abilities, and of course, 9th level casting.
What are your thoughts on the Metamorph archetype? Any good way to make it work? If you are adding it soon I can wait to read it.
I'd say the way to make it work is to play a Goliath Druid and ignore the existence of this archetype altogether. The druid gets most of the same abilities, and of course, 9th level casting.
Except that the Goliath druid only gets the Giant Shape, and Wild Shape. No Monstrous Humanoids, witch is the key point of the Metamorph. True, you don't get the spells, but if I wanted a spellcaster I would not look at the alchemist.
What are your thoughts on the Metamorph archetype? Any good way to make it work? If you are adding it soon I can wait to read it.
I'd say the way to make it work is to play a Goliath Druid and ignore the existence of this archetype altogether. The druid gets most of the same abilities, and of course, 9th level casting.
Except that the Goliath druid only gets the Giant Shape, and Wild Shape. No Monstrous Humanoids, witch is the key point of the Metamorph. True, you don't get the spells, but if I wanted a spellcaster I would not look at the alchemist.
I agree with you. I had a lot of hope when I saw the Metamorph title. It just takes so long to get going, and it isn't all that great even then. Heck, I think the default alchemist (let alone beastmorph vivisectionist) does a better job at being a shapechanger than a metamorph does.
Yeah, that's my bad, I'll try to change that later, but updating this guide isn't super high on my list with all the stuff I have. Thanks for bringing it up though so I can get it cleared up.
Any time. My alchemist has non-zero influence from your guide, so anything I can do to make it even better.
