Weapon proficiencies, and time travel.


Rules Questions


So, ok. Pretend you've got a Rogue from a time period where all firearms are considered simple weapons. This human Rogue has lived with guns his entire life, although he's more handy with a dagger. He can use guns as well as anyone else, however, but he never took any Feats regarding them. Didn't need to, they were all over the place and readily available.

Now, however, say this same Rogue gets sent to Golarion, a world where all firearms are now exotic weapons, and you have to specifically take feats to be proficient in them. Can this Rogue use firearms normally? Or does he now have to spend a feat now that he's here in this new world?

Similarly, would a Paladin in Golarion, sent forward into the Rogue's world, suddenly be able to use these simple weapons with ease? Or would he still need a feat to be able to use them?


Perhaps the most basic proficiency for free.

Shadow Lodge

The Rogue would have exotic weapon proficiency firearms feat because he wouldn't lose the ability to wield firearms unless you erased his memory of how to do do. The PALADIN however, would need the exotic weapon proficiency firearms feat when he time traveled or take the simple weapon proficiency feat when he got there to use firearms because he never trained with them.

On a side note, one, wouldn't this be multidimensional travel rather then time travel? He is going to Golarion, which is another world, not another time. And how often does this come up?


Time travel, multi-dimensional, whatev. Maybe Golarion broke up into different continents or something.

And how often it comes up, I imagine that would depend on the game.

Java Golem, that could be it, perhaps.


Vamptastic wrote:

So, ok. Pretend you've got a Rogue from a time period where all firearms are considered simple weapons. This human Rogue has lived with guns his entire life, although he's more handy with a dagger. He can use guns as well as anyone else, however, but he never took any Feats regarding them. Didn't need to, they were all over the place and readily available.

Now, however, say this same Rogue gets sent to Golarion, a world where all firearms are now exotic weapons, and you have to specifically take feats to be proficient in them. Can this Rogue use firearms normally? Or does he now have to spend a feat now that he's here in this new world?

Similarly, would a Paladin in Golarion, sent forward into the Rogue's world, suddenly be able to use these simple weapons with ease? Or would he still need a feat to be able to use them?

ArmouredMonk13 wrote:

The Rogue would have exotic weapon proficiency firearms feat because he wouldn't lose the ability to wield firearms unless you erased his memory of how to do do. The PALADIN however, would need the exotic weapon proficiency firearms feat when he time traveled or take the simple weapon proficiency feat when he got there to use firearms because he never trained with them.

On a side note, one, wouldn't this be multidimensional travel rather then time travel? He is going to Golarion, which is another world, not another time. And how often does this come up?

I'm gonna go ahead and completely disagree with the post above me. The first problem is even in today's society a Gun would not be considered a simple weapon, I imagine they'll always be at least a martial weapon.

The second problem is that a modern gun is going to be so completely different from the types of guns that this rogue would find on Golarion as to be almost alien and thus still require an exotic weapon proficiency.

As to the Paladin, even though in the world this Paladin goes firearms are [laughably] simple weapons he/she still comes from a world where firearms are rare and would still require an exotic weapon to use them.


Hey, Paizo said it, not me.

"Commonplace Guns: While still expensive and tricky to wield, early firearms are readily available. Instead of requiring the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat, all firearms are martial weapons. Early firearms and their ammunition cost 25% of the amounts listed in this book, but advanced firearms and their ammunition are still rare and cost the full price to purchase or craft.

Guns Everywhere: Guns are commonplace. Early firearms are seen as antiques, and advanced firearms are widespread. Firearms are simple weapons, and early firearms, advanced guns, and their ammunition are bought or crafted for 10% of the cost listed in this chapter. The Gunslinger loses the gunsmith class feature and instead gains the gun training class feature at 1st level."

And, for sake of argument, just pretend that he'd encounter the same guns on Golarion. Even though that's unrealistic, pretend for this debate, that there's no difference between his world's guns, and Golarion's guns.

Grand Lodge

Nobody loses, or gains anything.

Also, Golarion is a planet, with it's own neighboring planets, dimensions, planes of existences, that lies within it's own universe.

A continent is just a land mass, surrounded by water.

Golarion has many continents.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Nobody loses, or gains anything.

Also, Golarion is a planet, with it's own neighboring planets, dimensions, planes of existences, that lies within it's own universe.

A continent is just a land mass, surrounded by water.

Golarion has many continents.

Maybe Golarion becomes a collection of contineplanets, then. Like Space Pangaea.

Shadow Lodge

Vamptastic wrote:

Hey, Paizo said it, not me.

"Commonplace Guns: While still expensive and tricky to wield, early firearms are readily available. Instead of requiring the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat, all firearms are martial weapons. Early firearms and their ammunition cost 25% of the amounts listed in this book, but advanced firearms and their ammunition are still rare and cost the full price to purchase or craft.

Guns Everywhere: Guns are commonplace. Early firearms are seen as antiques, and advanced firearms are widespread. Firearms are simple weapons, and early firearms, advanced guns, and their ammunition are bought or crafted for 10% of the cost listed in this chapter. The Gunslinger loses the gunsmith class feature and instead gains the gun training class feature at 1st level."

And, for sake of argument, just pretend that he'd encounter the same guns on Golarion. Even though that's unrealistic, pretend for this debate, that there's no difference between his world's guns, and Golarion's guns.

Under these circumstances then
Quote:
The Rogue would have exotic weapon proficiency firearms feat because he wouldn't lose the ability to wield firearms unless you erased his memory of how to do do. The PALADIN however, would need the exotic weapon proficiency firearms feat when he time traveled or take the simple weapon proficiency feat when he got there to use firearms because he never trained with them.

P.S. sorry about the multidimensional travel thing. Force of habit.

Grand Lodge

Vamptastic wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

Nobody loses, or gains anything.

Also, Golarion is a planet, with it's own neighboring planets, dimensions, planes of existences, that lies within it's own universe.

A continent is just a land mass, surrounded by water.

Golarion has many continents.

Maybe Golarion becomes a collection of contineplanets, then. Like Space Pangaea.

Find out more here.

Also, I believe the Reign of Winter AP deals with Time/Space/Dimensional Travel.


I think you could go either way. Perhaps the reason guns are simple weapons in the future is because they are modern and easy to use. A time travelor could very well find the "antique" firearms of Golarion difficult to use thus requiring learning the exotic weapon feat...

or

just assume everyone in the future has the feat for free and he still has it. Thus he can use firearms just fine.

Reaslistically though being able to use a modern weapon like a clip fed pistol would not make you proficient in the use of a flintlock or wheel-lock. You could maybe shoot it once, but re-load and maintain, probably not.

Liberty's Edge

If you're looking for a RAW answer with regards to what happens to your time traveler, you're out of luck, time travel isn't RAW, for there to be an answer.


Vamptastic wrote:

Hey, Paizo said it, not me.

"Commonplace Guns: While still expensive and tricky to wield, early firearms are readily available. Instead of requiring the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat, all firearms are martial weapons. Early firearms and their ammunition cost 25% of the amounts listed in this book, but advanced firearms and their ammunition are still rare and cost the full price to purchase or craft.

Guns Everywhere: Guns are commonplace. Early firearms are seen as antiques, and advanced firearms are widespread. Firearms are simple weapons, and early firearms, advanced guns, and their ammunition are bought or crafted for 10% of the cost listed in this chapter. The Gunslinger loses the gunsmith class feature and instead gains the gun training class feature at 1st level."

And, for sake of argument, just pretend that he'd encounter the same guns on Golarion. Even though that's unrealistic, pretend for this debate, that there's no difference between his world's guns, and Golarion's guns.

Ok, ok so hold up, what you want me to "pretend" is that basically in this rogue's world, they basically use flintlocks and other such archaic weapons and these are considered common place?.

Ok I am now pretending this. Your answer is no he would not need an exotic weapon proficiency because in the world he grew up in guns are common place, apparently everyone and there mother has one on or near them at any time. Since he is the same person in Golarion, as he is on his home plane/planet/dimension he would have this simple training in his brain and unless the process of time travel, dimension hoping or plane jumping some how damaged his memory giving him selective emonisia he'd have all the knowledge and abilities he had prior to the above mentioned event that took him to Golarion.


A cartridge using firearm is going to be a simple weapon. A muzzle loading weapon would be an exotic weapon to anyone used to modern firearms.

So to answer your question it depends upon the type of firearms he is used to. The Paladin would still need the feat..


Interesting question, no simple answer. But to arrive at a reasonable conclusion, can we first establish what YOU want to pretend?

Giving that there's an enormous difference between firearms and their availability historically, would this hypothetical Rogue come from the 21st century or the 15th or somewhere in between?

Will he be a Ocean's 11 type casino heist guy that grabbed the wrong tech, or a Spanish Main pirate-ey dude swallowed by the Bermuda Triangle?

Could you flesh out your concept a bit more? Otherwise too many variables exist, at least for this reader.

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