http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateEquipment/wondrousItems/shoulder s.html#_cloak-of-the-hedge-wizard
Does this item seem horribly unbalanced to anyone else? I have some big problems in both the power discrepancy between versions and the power creep it brings into low levels.
The transmutation version allows a fighter to cast enlarge person on himself as a standard action. This jacks with the action economy of that spell and the idea that a fighter would need either a potion or a buddy to get that ability.
The abjuration version lets a fighter cast shield. A personal range spell that was never intended for fighters to have. This lets fighters be immune to magic missiles, and get a +4 shield bonus to their armor while two-weapon or two-handed fighting. wow! Not to mention an affective +1 resistance bonus to saves. Oh, and endure elements!
But the evocation version is terrible! Light, floating disk (for an hour) and one magic missile.
Anyone else have an opinion on this group of items?
Transmutation does seem to be the strongest as you level up. A 15th level fighter benefits from Enlarge Person as much as a 3rd level one.
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http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateEquipment/wondrousItems/shoulder s.html#_cloak-of-the-hedge-wizard
Does this item seem horribly unbalanced to anyone else? I have some big problems in both the power discrepancy between versions and the power creep it brings into low levels.
The transmutation version allows a fighter to cast enlarge person on himself as a standard action. This jacks with the action economy of that spell and the idea that a fighter would need either a potion or a buddy to get that ability.
Because gods forbit the fighter ever be self sufficient right? Cant have him getting all upity and thinking he can do his job on his own? First of all, enlarge person once per day at caster level 1
He gets this bonus for 1 minute. In the grand scheme of things its not a big deal. A +1 weapon is a way better value most of the time.
Does this add something that wasnt possible before? Yes. Is it unbalanced for its cost and level, no.
The abjuration version lets a fighter cast shield. A personal range spell that was never intended for fighters to have. This lets fighters be immune to magic missiles, and get a +4 shield bonus to their armor while two-weapon or two-handed fighting. wow! Not to mention an affective +1 resistance bonus to saves. Oh, and endure elements!
Again you are ignoring durations, this will only ever by a 1 minute duration. Thats pretty much one encounter. A 2500 gold allows a modest buff that costs a standard action once a day and lasts a minute. Whats the issue? Compare that against the constant (read no duration) items that provide similar bonuses in the same price range and its reasonable.
But the evocation version is terrible! Light, floating disk (for an hour) and one magic missile.
Lets face it, evocation kind of sucks unless you specialize. This is just a reality of the magic system as it stands. There arent any standout 1st level evocation spells.
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Wow, you just summed up the choices people make when they create low level spell casters when it comes to those spells for the most part.
Of course some of them will be "better" then others. If your going to classify them then that's how we tend to do it. Why buy a Broch of Shielding when the Abjuration Cloak of the Hedgemage is about? Well because you have to turn one on with an action while the other is constantly in use.
Sure they could buy multiple robes but at any modest to higher level these little buffs won't really add up to a lot even if multiple cloaks were purchased.
Heck I'm glad it exists and is attractive enough to make people consider something other then a cloak of resistance for that slot.
Wow, you just summed up the choices people make when they create low level spell casters when it comes to those spells for the most part.
Of course some of them will be "better" then others. If your going to classify them then that's how we tend to do it. Why buy a Broch of Shielding when the Abjuration Cloak of the Hedgemage is about? Well because you have to turn one on with an action while the other is constantly in use.
Sure they could buy multiple robes but at any modest to higher level these little buffs won't really add up to a lot even if multiple cloaks were purchased.
Heck I'm glad it exists and is attractive enough to make people consider something other then a cloak of resistance for that slot.
Because it has an always on endure elements, and a always on +1 to saves, and on top of that let's you use shield once a day while you continue to two-weapon or two-hand fight? Yea, it does make that cloak of resistance look like a chump at low levels.
+1 to saves activated as a Standard Action for 1 minute in a game where I'd estimate easily over half of the things that require saving throws don't give you an opportunity to do.
About the 10th time in 10 minutes that you tell a DM that you activate your cloak, that restriction is hand waved, and becomes an always on item. At that point it's just a d10 roll at the beginning of every combat to determine how many rounds you have left.
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+1 to saves activated as a Standard Action for 1 minute in a game where I'd estimate easily over half of the things that require saving throws don't give you an opportunity to do.About the 10th time in 10 minutes that you tell a DM that you activate your cloak, that restriction is hand waved, and becomes an always on item. At that point it's just a d10 roll at the beginning of every combat to determine how many rounds you have left.
No, no it does not. Any time he forgets, he won't get the bonus.
Unlike with a regular cloak of resistance, which is always on and can give values greater than +1.
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About the 10th time in 10 minutes that you tell a DM that you activate your cloak, that restriction is hand waved, and becomes an always on item. At that point it's just a d10 roll at the beginning of every combat to determine how many rounds you have left.
Do you let everyone with the Resistance cantrip/orison spam it like that too? If that's your GM style I don't see how you can really complain about a 'broken' anything.
About the 10th time in 10 minutes that you tell a DM that you activate your cloak, that restriction is hand waved, and becomes an always on item. At that point it's just a d10 roll at the beginning of every combat to determine how many rounds you have left.Do you let everyone with the Resistance cantrip/orison spam it like that too? If that's your GM style I don't see how you can really complain about a 'broken' anything.
Yep, just like I don't require players to announce that they recast light in dungeons every 10 minutes, like I don't make players announce they reactivate their ring of invisibility every 3 minutes, like I don't make scouts announce that they detect magic, evil, good, chaos, law, and look for traps at every door. I also don't make my players track arrows, or spell components. These things get in the way of smooth game play, any "at will" ability with a duration longer than instantaneous can be considered to be always on, and should be balanced accordingly.
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That probably does quite a bit in explaining why you think this item is so over powered... It doesn't work with your always on house rule. Not sure why you'd expect anyone to balance the game according to that though.
Your more generous then a lot of GM's are. I often have quite a lot of fun suddenly plunging things into pitch darkness when only a single low level light spell suddenly cuts out in combat. Seriously torches are dirt cheap and last for a long time.
And not to be overly critical but you seriously let your players wonder around in a dungeon with full sonar on without any repercussions? That must be hell.
No, but we all assume that they are going to check every door, every time. It get tedious to have them cast five spells and do three perception checks. When they get to the door I roll one check (for traps) and then say "no magic, no alignment, no traps, locked." Or whatever it is.
This happened over time because having people announce all the time that they re-up their spells (light is every ten minutes even at higher levels so it doesn't go out even if they get ambushed, also usually more than one player has it up) and then when they forget dealing with upset players who accuse you of waiting for them to forget, DM metagaming... Blah blah blah. It's just easier to assume at will abilities are always on.
I can see that this would make some items more powerful, but what about the evocation version of this thing? It's terrible by comparison. Also, enlarge person as a standard action on the transmutation version. Overall, it just seems poorly designed.
And I really don't like the idea of a fighter getting a +4 shield bonus while two-handing a falchion. :p
Constantly having resistance up means that you spend 6 seconds out of every 60 spellcasting. In other words you're spellcasting 10% of the time.
I can't imagine my most paranoid of characters doing that.
I also can't imagine my party members being willing to put up with it.
- Torger
Constantly having resistance up means that you spend 6 seconds out of every 60 spellcasting. In other words you're spellcasting 10% of the time.
I can't imagine my most paranoid of characters doing that.
I also can't imagine my party members being willing to put up with it.
- Torger
it only takes 3 seconds. And annoying the other people at the table is precisely the reason that I hand wave it.
player 1: "I cast resistance."
player 2: "Not this again.., what is that like 10 times in 10 minutes?"
player 1: "And?"
player 2: "When you use your abilities it annoys me. Stop it."
player 1: "Umm... no."
DM: "Frankly it's wearing me out too, let's just agree that you cast it every minute and you not have to say it out loud."
player 1: "Sounds good to me."
player 2: "Me too."
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Well a big part of things is that they actually can't use them like that in how you've described them.
They've got constant concentration abilities up, so they're moving very slowly through a dungeon situation which should up the amount of wondering monsters that happen by. Plus mechanically it can't function like that.
Every minute they have to stop concentrating to cast a new divination cone spell, wait like 3 rounds for it to warm up and then begin moving again before anything happens. Then they can move another few feet, stop and wait for it to attune to a new area, then wait and do it again, then stop and recast resistance. That should be eating up a huge amount of time an energy.
Your game is highly unusual.
Constantly having resistance up means that you spend 6 seconds out of every 60 spellcasting. In other words you're spellcasting 10% of the time.
I can't imagine my most paranoid of characters doing that.
I also can't imagine my party members being willing to put up with it.
- Torger
it only takes 3 seconds. And annoying the other people at the table is precisely the reason that I hand wave it.
player 1: "I cast resistance."
player 2: "Not this again.., what is that like 10 times in 10 minutes?"
player 1: "And?"
player 2: "When you use your abilities it annoys me. Stop it."
player 1: "Umm... no."
DM: "Frankly it's wearing me out too, let's just agree that you cast it every minute and you not have to say it out loud."
player 1: "Sounds good to me."
player 2: "Me too."
Hand wave it or not in game it's still happening. Every 60 seconds that character is taking a moment to recite some faux latin and do some weird hand gestures. I'm not talking about the players being unwilling to put up with it (although that too), I'm talking about their characters being unwilling to put up with it.
Bob the Fighter - "I swear to all the gods if I hear that stupid chant one more time I'll open the next dungeon door with his head!"
- Torger
Bob the Fighter - "I swear to all the gods if I hear that stupid chant one more time I'll open the next dungeon door with his head!"
- Torger
Oh, the grin on my character's face will be ear2ear, when Bob the Fighter gets floored by that magical trap on the next door he didn't want to get checked (perception check or detect magic... both take time and that ringing metal armor elephant better not complain about my latin making noise).
:-p
If one assumes that they cast a spell with a verbal component every 10 rounds, one also has to assume all monsters within hearing distance will know about them and plan accordingly.
Player: "I cast detect evil and detect magic on the door"
DM: "Oh, it's clear."
Player: "I open the door"
DM: "The Orcs heard you and have readied their heavy crossbows to shoot the spellcaster. They recognize your lack of armor and eight of them fire their arbalests right at Wizzkid McSpell while the last throws it's tanglefoot bag at you. Roll saves while I roll for attacks and damage.
Bob the Fighter - "I swear to all the gods if I hear that stupid chant one more time I'll open the next dungeon door with his head!"
- TorgerOh, the grin on my character's face will be ear2ear, when Bob the Fighter gets floored by that magical trap on the next door he didn't want to get checked (perception check or detect magic... both take time and that ringing metal armor elephant better not complain about my latin making noise).
:-p
Bob's not talking about legitimately checking for hazards that's all well and fine, Bob likes to stay alive. Take your time and do all the latin arm waving chanting you need to.
Bob's talking about how every 60 seconds Tim the enchanter casts something.
Traveling down the road?
Cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast
Sitting eating dinner?
Cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast
Taking care of biological needs in the woods?
Cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast, cast
Now if you thought that was annoying to read imagine traveling with it and remember the only way it's reasonable to assume that a caster has resistance cast on himself at all times is if he's doing that.
It is of course also ridiculous.
- Torger
*EDIT*
You wouldn't even be able to carry on a conversation with the guy without him interrupting every 60 seconds.
Has the wizard been taking part in a party discussion? Yea? Probably doesn't have resistance cast then.
*EDIT*
If one assumes that they cast a spell with a verbal component every 10 rounds, one also has to assume all monsters within hearing distance will know about them and plan accordingly.
Player: "I cast detect evil and detect magic on the door"
DM: "Oh, it's clear."
Player: "I open the door"
DM: "The Orcs heard you and have readied their heavy crossbows to shoot the spellcaster. They recognize your lack of armor and eight of them fire their arbalests right at Wizzkid McSpell while the last throws it's tanglefoot bag at you. Roll saves while I roll for attacks and damage.
Also this.
- Torger
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You also have to remember the whole, "How exactly does your character know when 60 seconds have past?"
Are they constantly looking at a pocket watch from the Adventurer's Armory? Well that's going to interfere with any kind of divining they're trying to do unless they hold it at an odd angle directly in front of them. Maybe they're keeping count or using a little minute timer with sand in it. Of course you could mess it up. Oh I suppose they could be watching their own auras
I'd suggest that perhaps it is ridiculous behavior that perhaps one shouldn't encourage in a group of players.
Well a big part of things is that they actually can't use them like that in how you've described them.
They've got constant concentration abilities up, so they're moving very slowly through a dungeon situation which should up the amount of wondering monsters that happen by. Plus mechanically it can't function like that.
Every minute they have to stop concentrating to cast a new divination cone spell, wait like 3 rounds for it to warm up and then begin moving again before anything happens. Then they can move another few feet, stop and wait for it to attune to a new area, then wait and do it again, then stop and recast resistance. That should be eating up a huge amount of time an energy.
Your game is highly unusual.
Yea, it probably takes a full minute for them (the characters) to check doors. It would actually take them (the players) about 10 minutes to do it. The point is, they would do it whether or not making them say it was hand waved. They have those abilities, they want to use them.
Hand wave it or not in game it's still happening. Every 60 seconds that character is taking a moment to recite some faux latin and do some weird hand gestures. I'm not talking about the players being unwilling to put up with it (although that too), I'm talking about their characters being unwilling to put up with it.
Bob the Fighter - "I swear to all the gods if I hear that stupid chant one more time I'll open the next dungeon door with his head!"
And characters have to put up with a bunch of things we don't have to. Like getting hit with swords, or blown up with fireballs, or poisoned, or being whisked away by the mists, etc. Listening to their buddies cast spells is on the bottom of that list.
Wizard: Casty casty resisitisoooooo.
Fighter: I'm seriously gonna break your face the next time you do that.
Wizard: I'm seriously going to murder you in your sleep with my mind.
Cleric: And I'll have to sell off your sword in order to res you.
Fighter: S*~%.
Wizard: Casty casty resisitisoooooo.
Honestly though, I don't require my players to state every single buff they cast either. The casters usually have a "standard buff list" and if they say "I buff up" I say "okay" and they can cast all the spells there.
The players know I adjust scenarios based on their actions though (like the above example of orcs hearing them) so when they're in a dangerous area they usually try to lay low unless they know what they're doing.
And characters have to put up with a bunch of things we don't have to. Like getting hit with swords, or blown up with fireballs, or poisoned, or being whisked away by the mists, etc.
Bob the Fighter - "I don't put up with any of those things. They happen to me, then I kill the people responsible. Just sayin."
Wizard: Casty casty resisitisoooooo.
Fighter: I'm seriously gonna break your face the next time you do that.
Wizard: I'm seriously going to murder you in your sleep with my mind.
Cleric: And I'll have to sell off your sword in order to res you....
Bob the Fighter - "Soon as we rescue these villagers we're done. Find yourselves another meat shield."
If I were more motivated I'd make a youtube video that was 57 seconds of dead air followed by 3-6 seconds of something, then loops that for hours. I'm curious how long the defenders of constantly up resistance would be willing to listen to it. Especially in life or death situations.
- Torger
No issue with the item as written. 1x/day shield spell for a standard action is mostly "meh" and seems priced appropriately, despite the protestations on the other thread.
-TimD
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Ooh, the fighter sucks slightly less for a minute a day! Break out the banhammer!
Whoop-de-crap.
And characters have to put up with a bunch of things we don't have to. Like getting hit with swords, or blown up with fireballs, or poisoned, or being whisked away by the mists, etc.Bob the Fighter - "I don't put up with any of those things. They happen to me, then I kill the people responsible. Just sayin."
Wizard: Casty casty resisitisoooooo.
Fighter: I'm seriously gonna break your face the next time you do that.
Wizard: I'm seriously going to murder you in your sleep with my mind.
Cleric: And I'll have to sell off your sword in order to res you....Bob the Fighter - "Soon as we rescue these villagers we're done. Find yourselves another meat shield."
If I were more motivated I'd make a youtube video that was 57 seconds of dead air followed by 3-6 seconds of something, then loops that for hours. I'm curious how long the defenders of constantly up resistance would be willing to listen to it. Especially in life or death situations.
- Torger
So in your games characters get upset with other players for using their abilities? I just cannot comprehend this.
"Hey, Fighter! Quick walking moving fast in Armor! Clank clank clank clank! Stop it!""Hey, Druid! Quit being a hawk!"
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How often does the Fighter get to say: "Don't worry guys, I have just the thing for this" when the party faces a problem that doesn't require brute force?
I'm a big fan of command word items that replicate spells because they open a world of utility (at a price) to characters who normally heavily rely on other classes. Basic items such as a 1/day Air Bubble, Keep Watch or Touch of the Sea trinket are not terribly expensive and does wonders for solving those awkward fighter-specific problems like swimming in full plate or strapping on said full plate when you get attacked in the night.
I personally don't have a problem with the transmutation or the abjuration versions of this cloak (as I'm reasonably sure DTBone is well aware).
Edit: DOH! For some reason I thought the crafted price (1250 GP) was the full price on this item. 2500 GP for Mage Armor 1/day is anything but overpowered. Disregard everything below.
It's not a bad alternative for a monk or for a kensai magus who doesn't want to spend an arcana to picking up the spell.
That said, Mage Armor 1/day is hardly broken. A character could carry a crate of potions for the same effect and it would take a long time before his potion expenses overcame the price of this item.
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So in your games characters get upset with other players for using their abilities? I just cannot comprehend this.
"Hey, Fighter! Quick walking moving fast in Armor! Clank clank clank clank! Stop it!"
"Hey, Druid! Quit being a hawk!"
In my game characters get upset with other characters for things that would upset a normal, rational person. In this case incessant noise pollution. That someone is using an ability to do it is irrelevant to whether or not a character gets upset about it.
It's more like "Hey Druid quit slowly pecking at my face while being a hawk."
Perhaps the repetition wouldn't upset you. Perhaps you could handle the youtube challenge I suggested in my last post for hours on end. If so I salute you. But I feel like most reasonable people would be unable to put up with it. As such most of my characters would be unable to put up with it.
- Torger
What if the spell verbal components were "Where has the rum gone?" and the somatic was strange Depp style handwaving.
While you did give me a laugh, the serious answer is imagine listening to a clip of "where has the rum gone?" that repeats once every minute indefinitely.
I wouldn't be able to take it.
- Torger
What if the spell verbal components were "Where has the rum gone?" and the somatic was strange Depp style handwaving.While you did give me a laugh, the serious answer is imagine listening to a clip of "where has the rum gone?" that repeats once every minute indefinitely.
I wouldn't be able to take it.
- Torger
I found this clip and I literally giggled like a little girl. Torger, let me know how long you last.
I found this clip and I literally giggled like a little girl. Torger, let me know how long you last.
Certainly not long enough to make it through a dungeon. Good find.
- Torger
I found this clip and I literally giggled like a little girl. Torger, let me know how long you last.What if the spell verbal components were "Where has the rum gone?" and the somatic was strange Depp style handwaving.While you did give me a laugh, the serious answer is imagine listening to a clip of "where has the rum gone?" that repeats once every minute indefinitely.
I wouldn't be able to take it.
- Torger
When I clicked this link the youtube link was for beer with a long-haired dude with a short beard. That made me giggle xD
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If the players and DM want to have an agreement that says the character recsts his spells unless he says otherwise then if I was DM I'd go for it.
Why?
Because the player will forget.
Are you sneaking? Sure. Except for that 6 seconds you are casting that spell. Talking to the Queen? Well sure until you cast a spell in her face. Then you are talking through a gag wishing the manacles weren't quite so tight and really, really hoping your cell guard isn't named Bubba.
It sounds fine in theory to say "I keep resistance up." But in reality its going to get you *killed*. But if the PC's really wanted to do it, then I would let them. I'd just remind them that the world assumes they are actually casting it once a minute- they didn't just suddenly extend the duration of a cantrip to 24 hours.
Punitive? No. Just enforcing the rules. If you cast it once a minute unless you say otherwise then you cast it once a minute unless you say otherwise.
-S
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If a character really did cast a spell every single minute every single day of his life then I'd start considering giving his character some other interesting habits. Honestly, that strikes me as pretty close to an obsessive-compulsive disorder.
Transmutation does seem to be the strongest as you level up. A 15th level fighter benefits from Enlarge Person as much as a 3rd level one.
I'd rather have a cloak of resistance +N at higher levels. I can buy my own potions of enlarge person.
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Bob the Fighter - "I swear to all the gods if I hear that stupid chant one more time I'll open the next dungeon door with his head!"
- TorgerOh, the grin on my character's face will be ear2ear, when Bob the Fighter gets floored by that magical trap on the next door he didn't want to get checked (perception check or detect magic... both take time and that ringing metal armor elephant better not complain about my latin making noise).
:-p
It won't be Bob the Fighter that gets hit.
On a note more towards the OP's question:
Cloaks generally are a precarious sort. Folks want interesting and engaging magical items but are always ever wary of the "but I need X to survive so any amount of "interesing" is out weighed by being alive to use it.".
I think these cloaks fall sort of in that range. Could some of these cloaks be over the top? Maybe a little. I think without the Resistance cloaks the Enlarge Person one could start to creep ahead, at least for the melee folks. (and who wouldn't want Presi at will? forever clean and smelling fresh- as an adventurer? Yes please!).
They just about HAVE to be over the top just to get seen because getting fried by a too-nasty fireball or being turned against ones comrades is such an everpresent risk that the resistance items just reign supreme.
-S
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Again, yeah.
I prefer my adventurers and NPCs to be more like normal people instead of obsessive-compulsive maniacs.
Its also mechanics fishing.
I know it might seem mean, but when I hear the argument 'not letting me cast resistance perpetually is imposing on my class feature' the pictures my mind summons up are not charitable ones. Its akin to 'I have a right to poop where-ever I want' or 'how dare you prevent me from expressing myself through nudity in the shopping mall.'
This is the same reason I generally frown on all-day armor and the folks who carry their ransuers to the commode on the off chance a creature boils up out of the privy. Its gamist logic. Its like the folks who used to try to 'accidentally' invent gunpowder, or think they can earn bottomless cash by making masterwork daggers all day long and get a case of the red-ass when you tell them the market's been exhausted and prices will drop.
Its also why I don't see as much problem with 'suboptimal' items if I can see a person genuinely using them. Evocation might not always be optimal, but its fun to blow crap up. Maybe having a gauntlet that lets you cast ray of frost at will is suboptimal, but I'd like one, and if I was a fighter not using my bracer's slot for something else, I'd grab it up. Just so I could freeze my drink, or blast rats, or shoot rays to impress chicks.