This boils down to how "simulationist" you want your campaigns to be. If you want the world the PCs live in to resemble and reflect the logic and cause-and-effect of the real world, then a group of PCs invading a dungeon and holing up to rest would almost certainly become hunted by the remaining, alerted, intelligent denizens of the dungeon.
Nothing caused me to roll my eyes and snort in the early days of D&D like a dungeon that was room after room of implausible monsters just sitting around waiting for the PCs to visit hot bloody death upon them.
I run simulationist campaigns. What you describe would be a very bad situation for PCs in my games.
You should advise them simply leave, after all they're only on the first floor. Adventures should not be allowed to develop the habbit of sleeping in hostile territory and hoping it wont cause problems.
It is technicallt feasible that they could get 8 full hours of rest, but as a GM you really shouldn't allow them to do so. Its bad practice as I mentioned above) to let adventures rest in hostile territory. Further, it's also bad story and plot wise. You're last enemy on the level has barricaded himself in. He's knows they're there and is on alert. I'm assuming the party has to go through his room to get to the next level. If they don't try to come in, he's probably going to get curious and seek them out, especially if he has cause to believe that they're resting and he can get the drop on them.
I don't know about the "logic" of the next two floors worth of enemies coming in all at once, but definitely as I mentioned the one survivor on that floor, and maybe a few from the next might colaborate an attack against the party.
I would suggest being very honest with your players, if they are new warn them outright that this will not work. Don't give too many details in case they decide to do it anyways, sometimes players must be allowed to fail because of bad tactics.
Also, this is more of an advice question than a rules question.
Here's a thread on the subject from earlier this year.
My two cents: Resting in an active dungeon never made any sense to me. You're basically relying on GM pity to survive.
|
3) Does anyone have any good house rules for handling situations like this? What do your parties normally do when they over extend themselves early in a dungeon?
We rarely do so because we tend to be cautious, but if we do over-extend ourselves we leave the dungeon if possible. I don't think we've ever found ourselves drained of resources in a position we couldn't retreat from. So "leave the dungeon" would be my first bit of advice. If they're not able/willing to do that...
1) Given the resting rules require 8 full hours of rest to regain hitpoints and abilities, is it even feasible that the party could rest in this situation?
Possible but tricky. Do they have access to a defensible position - a room that can be barricaded, or at least a bottleneck? Does someone skills that could plausibly be used to fortify or conceal their position (Craft traps, Knowledge engineering, Stealth, Disguise, Survival)?
Note that only HP and arcane spells require 8 hours rest to recover - other daily abilities, including divine spells, do not. So if they manage to survive the night but don't get rest, they can still recover some of their abilities.
It might be strategic to try and have the arcane spellcasters (or just the witch/wizard/sorc if you've got a lot of arcane hybrids) sleep while the others defend the space. That way the party will regain most or all of its limited-use abilities (though not HP).
For HP, if they can't sleep they should probably use Treat Deadly Wounds - the check takes an hour and it restores as many HP as a night's rest.
2) If they do, what can I do about the fact that logically all of the most powerful enemies in the next 2 floors will notice whats up and come after them all at once?
It's possible that the enemies won't notice and come after them all at once - you might have them arrive in a few small groups, which would be easier for the PCs to handle. Maybe some won't poke their heads up at all - depends on the monsters. This maintains some realism and gets across the idea "don't camp in the dungeon" but gives the PCs a chance to survive the night.
OTOH, there has to be an alternative.
How far is it back to civilization or some other secure resting place? If the party faces a long trek through dangerous wilderness, they'll have to rest somewhere along the way. If they rest within a short distance of the dungeon, most of the same arguments against resting in the dungeon apply, except that they're not likely to be as well barricaded in.Part of this is GM design. Dungeons need to be either small enough to handle without resting, be close enough to safe places to rest or contain such safe places.
Sleep in a tree
Or on the side of a mountain
If they rest within a short distance of the dungeon, most of the same arguments against resting in the dungeon apply, except that they're not likely to be as well barricaded in.
Generally the wilderness is a much larger place to search with many more escape options than a barricaded room.
The whole 8 hour rest just doesn't vibe with me. What fantasy story have you read where the heroes retreat from a dungeon or stronghold half way through and "sleep it off". Its just jarring to my sense of immersion.
Honestly in 8 hours the dungeon is going to send scouts. If you leave the dungeon you would come back to find the first floor filled with new guards. It might be a weaker group or less... but its not like they are going to see that the first floor was wiped out and just abandon it. They will be on alert and probably send people outside to track down the party.
I have been thinking about using the following House rules.
1. Regroup: You can rest for 10 mintues and regain one of the following: One use of a class ability(excluding those that are once per day), one spell(must be 1st level or at least one level lower then the max spell level you can cast), Your level in HP. This can be done 1+level times per day.
2. Short rest: You can rest for 1 hour regaining all abilities and HP as if you had rested for 8 hours. This can be done a max of 1+1/2 your level rounded down.
3. Rest: Standard 8 hours of rest. This resets your uses of 1 and 2.
Note: Only option 3 is true rest. If your party goes to long without option 3, normal exhaustion rules apply.
What do you guys think? This allows for short breaks where the party stops to regroup or bind wounds. I have considered even changing option 2 to a 30 minute break instead of an hour. Just a time that the casters can stop and re-prepare spells. Honestly they cant do this during combat. They will still need to find shelter or defend themselves. But it keeps the dungeon from responding. It fits better in my mind anyways. And I really dont see any huge negative.
|
Generesque,
As the GM of the game, Resting works how you want them to work.
In an "old School" Dungoen, like the "Caves of Chaos" in "Keep on the Borderlands" you would have a series of under ground chambers, connected by passageways inhabited by groups of monsters.
The PCs, using the Keep as their base of operations would make forays into the caves of chaos killing the monsters and taking their loot. back then the PCs would go from chamber to chamber killing monsters, and resting when they needed to. The monsters in the next chamber rarely reacted to what was going on next door unless there was instructions in the module about overhearing the loud sounds of combat.
Often two or three combats, if we were lucky 1st level 1st edition PCS would need to rest. If we couldn't go back to a safe civilized place ( the Keep) to rest, then we would try and hole up in the dungeon often trying to find a chamber with only one entrance and if we were lucky one with a door we could s*#~! shut.
The GM would roll a 1d6 and consult the "wandering Monster Table" to determine if there was a wandering monster in the middle of the night.
Thats how we used to handle "resting" in a dungeons.
Earlier levels use Rope Trick to conjure a safe place to sleep for a few hours (may require a rod of extend spell at really low levels) and at later levels they can use Plane Shift to travel to a plane where time is inverted, and 1 day in the plane equates to only 1 round in the Material Plane. Inventing ways to return to the exact location you were in dungeon becomes the hardest part, until someone starts getting cute with Mage's Mansion.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This is also a symptom of the "15-minute work day". When you are low/empty on spells and resources is exactly the time that the martial classes are supposed to shine.
One of the primary arguments of balance between spellcasters and martial classes is that the spellcasters run out of spells but the martial classes can hack and slash all day.
But here we have a paradigm where you just stop once the spellcasters are done and therefore bypass the "balancing factor" of the other classes.
One group with which I play simply says "press on!" even when low or out of spells. The ranger/rogue/fighter really shine at this point. In order to make this work without too many TPKs - the DM just has us working against dungeons with lower CRs than standard.
At first it feels like the opponents are push overs. But as the day wears on and you are down to daggers, arrows, and harsh language the danger begins to really reassert itself.
Narratively it doesn't often make sense to alert all the dungeon denizens to your presence and intent to destroy them...and then give them all night to make preparations.
Many games, many styles. YMMV
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
But part of problem also can rest on the GM. It's easy enough to design a dungeon that can't be cleared with one day's effort, not build in any places to rest, have the enemy patrol the surrounding areas so it's not safe to rest there and even have countermeasures ready for low-level resting spells like Rope Trick.
And then claim "It's just verisimilitude/simulation. They're smart, that's how they'd organise, not my fault."
That sounds like an awesome adventure. Once you have scouted out the situation you would be forced to attrit the enemy patrols first, killing off many of them each day and returning to a safe base. Eventually they would either loose their patrols, call on bigger allies (revealing the true enemy and pointing the party there), or try to abandon the area.
Each of those results can lead to further adventure depending on the outcome. Once you have dealt sufficiently with the above-ground issue you then create a safe resting zone there from which you can launch further into the dungeon.
This is just the kind of thing expected in early editions of the game. Take the "simulation" for what it is and then just get clever about it. If you are expecting to just kick down the door to a significant dungeon and plow through the whole thing in a single day's worth of blasting you are missing out on half the adventure.
You'd be amazed what you can accomplish with patience, a good plan, and a 10-foot pole. And how much fun you can have doing it!
I would just design the 'dungeon' in such a way that it's possible to complete it during one trip unless something goes awry.
Barricaded room is easier to find, but also easier to defend.
I guess it depends on your campaign. I can't remember ever having a wilderness encounter that was so bad that I thought to myself: "I wish I was in a dungeon room besieged by monsters on alert with no way out."
|
Barricaded room is easier to find, but also easier to defend.I guess it depends on your campaign. I can't remember ever having a wilderness encounter that was so bad that I thought to myself: "I wish I was in a dungeon room besieged by monsters on alert with no way out."
You're forgetting the 1st ed demented and fully "random" wilderness encounter tables in the DMG, where you could easily encounter a flying Red Dragon, or 4-400 Orcs.
I would just design the 'dungeon' in such a way that it's possible to complete it during one trip unless something goes awry.
You could do that but like I said in the other thread, it can become too meta and player predicable. You could also design a dungeon for multiple forays already taken into consideration. Hit it once; consequences, changes and then hit it a second time, etc.
Even though the trope of "I have to rest for 8 hours to get my spells back" doesn't really exist in films or lit, the concept of hitting hard and then retreating when you're running low on resources/taken some damage does often occur - even in real life. It wouldn't be a bad idea to design a dungeon with that concept in mind - many older modules did this.
I prefer to run what is being called the simulationist method. Always have. But I have been reigning in this tendency in the last five years or so. It can turn into a major juggling act to pull off, and your map's terrain may not be conducive to huge battles. It gets frustrating for the players too. I try to a hybrid style now. It is still perfectly possible to attract the attention of extra monsters when players make bad choices.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I am fine with PCs resting in a dungeon. I ask what preparations they have made and how they will set guards and then make a decision from there how the remaining occupants react.
Depending on the dungeon that can be a nearly suicidal act or very safe or just a tough night. It also depends on the number of survivors of PC attacks.
Not every dungeon will react quickly. Disorganized dungeons populated by competing groups may think it is some sort of trap and be very slow in sending in a large force. They may not even have contact with a particular faction until a small group of survivors comes running that some adventurers wiped out their tribe. Even then they may be reluctant to face these obviously competent people and just try to shore up their own defenses.
In dungeons run by a strong central power and that are well organized counter attacks may start as soon as one guy escapes a battle. (Which sort of seems to have happened in your case). Depending on the organization they might harass the PCs throughout the day with constant attacks and send competent groups to attack in the night after the PCs think they are safe.
TL;DR: Depending on the organization of the dungeon and the relationships between the different factions resting in the dungeon can be easy or not.
|
I am fine with PCs resting in a dungeon. I ask what preparations they have made and how they will set guards and then make a decision from there how the remaining occupants react.
Depending on the dungeon that can be a nearly suicidal act or very safe or just a tough night. It also depends on the number of survivors of PC attacks.
Not every dungeon will react quickly. Disorganized dungeons populated by competing groups may think it is some sort of trap and be very slow in sending in a large force. They may not even have contact with a particular faction until a small group of survivors comes running that some adventurers wiped out their tribe. Even then they may be reluctant to face these obviously competent people and just try to shore up their own defenses.
In dungeons run by a strong central power and that are well organized counter attacks may start as soon as one guy escapes a battle. (Which sort of seems to have happened in your case). Depending on the organization they might harass the PCs throughout the day with constant attacks and send competent groups to attack in the night after the PCs think they are safe.
TL;DR: Depending on the organization of the dungeon and the relationships between the different factions resting in the dungeon can be easy or not.
Karkon nailed it!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
TL;DR: Depending on the organization of the dungeon and the relationships between the different factions resting in the dungeon can be easy or not.
Again, it's obviously campaign dependent, but that's usually the kind of information that's obvious to the GM, but not necessarily obvious to the PCs (at least at first) unless the GM is having pity on them.
Now I can certainly believe that there are some parties out there who do all kinds of scouting and picking up rumours and who know everything about the lay of the land before they even start their dungeon delving, but that never came up in any of my campaigns. If we ever slept a dungeon, we just hoped that the GM would take it easy on us.
My party, hoping to regain their abilities, have holed up in a corner of the first floor and want to rest the night. My questions are:
1) Given the resting rules require 8 full hours of rest to regain hitpoints and abilities, is it even feasible that the party could rest in this situation?
2) If they do, what can I do about the fact that logically all of the most powerful enemies in the next 2 floors will notice whats up and come after them all at once?
3) Does anyone have any good house rules for handling situations like this? What do your parties normally do when they over extend themselves early in a dungeon?Thanks!
Remember only Arcane Spellcaster need 8 hours sleep to refresh their abilities.
Divine characters get it back regardless.So have the Fighter and Cleric (or whatever is close to that type of character) guard the room where the arcaners sleep.
As long as the Arcane caster doesn't fight back with magic, he still regains it after 8 total hours (even with inturruptions).
Only if he spell casts each interruption does he have to reset the 8 hours.
|
|
it is up to player to come up with alternatives, they should have rope trick spell memorized, or stone shape a new room and setup new secert door ect. I would as dm TPK the party let them make new characters and i bet they change their tactics. there lots of choice but they are all up to players.
Stone Shape lets you shape an area that is 10 cubic feet + 1 cubic ft/lvl.
A 5ft cube - enough for a single character - is 5ft long x 5ft wide x 5ft high = 125 cubic feet.
Even if you want to, say, just lie inside, and assuming a medium size character to create a small space, that's maybe 6ft long x 1ft wide x 1ft high - enough for maybe 2 medium creatures, you're lucky if you have a party of 4 small creatures: that might work.
This is all at the cost of a 3rd level spell, which hopefully you still have, or have a wizard/sorcerer to cast at all. This is an emergency option at best.