Two-Weapon Fighting and Attack of Opportunity

[kezzran]

I dug around on the Internet and here on the forums, but couldn't find a specific answer to a question I have regarding TWF and AOO.

Our party has a level 2 Rogue who has the following:

Two-Weapon Fighting
Combat Reflexes

So, we understand that with a Full Round Action he may make 2 attacks per round. We also understand that Combat Reflexes allows him to make additional AOO attacks equal to his Dexterity bonus (in this case +3, for a total of 4). What we aren't certain of is if he can make 2 attacks, via TWF, for every AOO he undertakes (I'm inclined to say no, per reasons below).

Per the PRD:

Making an Attack of Opportunity: An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and most characters can only make one per round. You don't have to make an attack of opportunity if you don't want to. You make your attack of opportunity at your normal attack bonus, even if you've already attacked in the round.

It would seem to me that he makes only a single attack per AOO (main OR offhand), rather than 2 attacks (main AND offhand) per AOO. Correct?

[Darksol the Painbringer]

Yes, he can only make one attack with one weapon for each attack of opportunity, though he does get to choose which weapon and form of attack he makes.

In addition, creatures only provoke once per action type. Creatures moving 30 feet provoke the same as a creature moving 15 feet. But if they move and cast a spell in a threatened square (without combat casting), that counts as 2 provocations.

[Nicos]

Also, The AoO do not suffer the penalty from TWF even if in the previous turn he hae full atacked.

[kezzran]

That's what I love about this community. Quick, precise answers delivered in a friendly manner. Thanks, just the answers I needed!

[Komoda]

Darksol is almost right, but not completely.

Creatures can easily provoke more than once per action type. If someone attacks with trip three times, they provoke three times unless they have a feat/skill/item/spell/etc. that states otherwise.

The only thing that provokes once per type is moving out of a threatened square. A creature can run circles around you and you only get on Attack of Opportunity for that.

[Kazaan]

Additionally, the "off-hand" attack only exists in the context of Two-Weapon Fighting. If you have a Longsword in one hand and a Dagger in the other, you can make your AoO with either one and either would still get normal Power Attack bonus damage, Strength damage, etc. In fact, once the Rogue hits +6 BAB and gets another iterative attack, he could fight with one weapon for the +6 attack and the other weapon for the +1 attack and it's still not considered TWF; no TWF attack penalty, no half strength to one of the attacks, no reduced power attack damage, etc. An attack only counts as "off-hand" if you're using the TWF combat rules to get an extra attack beyond what your BAB would normally allow, taking attack penalties and special damage rules for the off-hand accordingly.

[Darksol the Painbringer]

Komoda wrote:

Darksol is almost right, but not completely.

Creatures can easily provoke more than once per action type. If someone attacks with trip three times, they provoke three times unless they have a feat/skill/item/spell/etc. that states otherwise.

The only thing that provokes once per type is moving out of a threatened square. A creature can run circles around you and you only get on Attack of Opportunity for that.

That's what I said. Opportunities provoke once per action type. Tripping multiple times in a full attack each provoke. Moving and casting a spell through a threatened square each provoke an attack. Your example coincides with my explanation.

[Komoda]

Oh, I thought once per action type meant that once for moving, once for spell casting, once for CM's etc.

I have seen a lot of people confuse once per movement with once per round, so I thought you were applying the once per movement to once per each type.

Sorry about that.

[Kazaan]

When it says they only provoke once per action type, it means that, if you have 5 attacks of opportunity via Combat Reflexes, you can't take all 5 vs one particular spellcasting. You could, however, take one for the casting of a ray then another for the firing of the ray. You could take one from Greater Trip for the target "being tripped", then another one via Vicious Stomp for the target "falling prone".

[Komoda]

Right, so it is not per type, it is per trigger.

A trip attack is an action type.
3 trip attacks are still one action type.

A trip attack is a trigger.
3 trip attacks are 3 triggers.

That is how I was looking at it, and why I thought he was saying something different.

It is that whole English thing where there are so many meanings to one sentence:

I love you more than anyone.

Could mean:

I love you more than I love anyone else.

or

I love you more than anyone else loves you.

Both are completely different meanings.

[Darksol the Painbringer]

Komoda wrote:

Oh, I thought once per action type meant that once for moving, once for spell casting, once for CM's etc.

I have seen a lot of people confuse once per movement with once per round, so I thought you were applying the once per movement to once per each type.

Sorry about that.

It still makes sense. Provocations are generally one per action type taken, even if the other actions are the same action. If I take a double move action, I provoke once every interval of my speed. Combat Maneuvers still function as you say since it says you provoke an attack whenever attempting the maneuver (unless you have the feat); since you are attempting it 5 times, you provoke on each attempt. As that's a specific rule, it trumps the general "one per action type" rule.

I hope that helps clear up my explanation

[Kazaan]

Komoda wrote:

It is that whole English thing where there are so many meanings to one sentence:

I love you more than anyone.

Could mean:

I love you more than I love anyone else.

or

I love you more than anyone else loves you.

Both are completely different meanings.

Aww, isn't that adorable...

I didn't say he stole my money. I didn't say it, but some one else might have.
I didn't say he stole my money. I deny having said it.
I didn't say he stole my money. I didn't verbalize it, but I may have thought it.
I didn't say he stole my money. I didn't accuse that particular person.
I didn't say he stole my money. I didn't accuse him of that particular action.
I didn't say he stole my money. Not my money, but maybe someone else's.
I didn't say he stole my money. Not that particular object.

How far does the rabbit hole go? Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo.

[Iorthol]

Attacking more than once is a full round action. An attack of opportunity is an attack action.

Should be clear enough right thar.

Reflexes just means that if this rabbit drank a potion, and this rabbit did a little dance, and this rabbit stood up from prone, your rogue friend could shank each of them instead of having to pick.

[Komoda]

Kazaan, that was awesome!

[Kazaan]

Iorthol wrote:

Attacking more than once is a full round action. An attack of opportunity is an attack action.

Actually, an AoO is not an Attack action. That's a specific, standard action which allows you to make a single attack. An AoO is also a single attack, but not the Attack action (ie. you cannot employ Vital Strike or Overhand Chop on an AoO). An AoO is a "not-an-action" action. Or, in other words, it's just a bare melee attack with no specific action type attached. Also, "attacking more than once" =/= full-attack. A Full-Attack allows you to, potentially, attack more than once. But there are other abilities, standard, full-round, and otherwise, that also allow you to attack more than once. Cleave allows you to attack more than once, but it's a standard Use Feat action. Spell Combat allows you to attack more than once, but it's a Full-Round Use Special Ability action. Just to name a few examples.

[Komoda]

Wait, what?

Quote:

If I take a double move action, I provoke once every interval of my speed

No you don't. You provoke once from each person that threatens any 1 or more squares that you leave.

If you run past 5 people with one increment you can provoke up to 5 AoOs for leaving threatened squares.
If you run back by those same 5 people with your second increment, you provoke 0 more times for leaving threatened squares.

[Saker]

There is one thing that seems to be skirted around. Making an AoO during the full attack and provoked because of the full attack.

From FAQ wrote:

If you use Two-Weapon Fighting on your turn to attack with two weapons, do you also take that penalty on attacks of opportunity made before the start of your next turn? How long do the penalties last?

No, the penalties end as soon as you have completed the full-attack action that allowed you to attack with both weapons. Any attacks of opportunity you make are at your normal attack bonus. Generally speaking, penalties on attacks made during your turn do not carry over to attacks of opportunity unless they specifically state otherwise (such as the penalty from using Power Attack).

So, a common maneuver I like to do is a flurry of blows where I start off my set of attacks with an improved trip so the remaining attacks get the benefit of +4 to hit (if target is tripped). Toss in vicious stomp for good measure.

So, are the two AoOs I get during my flurry have no TWF/Flurry penalty? To make things even more complicated, my BAB changes with flurry. I think for simplicity's sake that during the flurry all mods are applied to AoOs. Only when the flurry or TWF attack is over does it not apply.

The FAQ seems to conflict what it says with the general rule at end. Although, I do believe the AoO is taken outside whatever action is being taken I think the circumstances still warrant the penalty (and BAB bonus for flurry) if done during the maneuver. I'm trying to think of another example of a temporary penalty that wouldn't apply to AoO, but this seems to be the only one I can come up with.

[Kazaan]

Saker wrote:

There is one thing that seems to be skirted around. Making an AoO during the full attack and provoked because of the full attack.

From FAQ wrote:

If you use Two-Weapon Fighting on your turn to attack with two weapons, do you also take that penalty on attacks of opportunity made before the start of your next turn? How long do the penalties last?

No, the penalties end as soon as you have completed the full-attack action that allowed you to attack with both weapons. Any attacks of opportunity you make are at your normal attack bonus. Generally speaking, penalties on attacks made during your turn do not carry over to attacks of opportunity unless they specifically state otherwise (such as the penalty from using Power Attack).

So, a common maneuver I like to do is a flurry of blows where I start off my set of attacks with an improved trip so the remaining attacks get the benefit of +4 to hit (if target is tripped). Toss in vicious stomp for good measure.

So, are the two AoOs I get during my flurry have no TWF/Flurry penalty? To make things even more complicated, my BAB changes with flurry. I think for simplicity's sake that during the flurry all mods are applied to AoOs. Only when the flurry or TWF attack is over does it not apply.

The FAQ seems to conflict what it says with the general rule at end. Although, I do believe the AoO is taken outside whatever action is being taken I think the circumstances still warrant the penalty (and BAB bonus for flurry) if done during the maneuver. I'm trying to think of another example of a temporary penalty that wouldn't apply to AoO, but this seems to be the only one I can come up with.

That's actually a very good question. I evaluated the applicable rules and determined that, since "main-hand" and "off-hand" are terms that only have context in regards to TWF, and the penalties only apply to your "main-hand" attack and "off-hand" attack specifically, your AoO attack, which is neither, doesn't suffer from the TWF penalties as it is made outside of the normal flow of combat. This means, of course, that it's also not, technically, part of your Flurry so it also doesn't benefit from your increased BAB from Flurry. To wit, if a Monk had the ability to cast a spell as a swift action that required an attack roll, and cast this spell in the middle of his Flurry, it also wouldn't be considered to be part of the Flurry so it would suffer neither Flurry penalty nor benefit from the increased Flurry BAB. Magi, as the "exception that proves the rule", states that the spell cast as part of Spell Combat explicitly is a part of the action so any attack made as part of the spell (ranged or melee touch) suffers the -2 penalty built into Spell Combat.

[Remy Balster]

Kazaan wrote:

Komoda wrote:

It is that whole English thing where there are so many meanings to one sentence:

I love you more than anyone.

Could mean:

I love you more than I love anyone else.

or

I love you more than anyone else loves you.

Both are completely different meanings.

Aww, isn't that adorable...

I didn't say he stole my money. I didn't say it, but some one else might have.
I didn't say he stole my money. I deny having said it.
I didn't say he stole my money. I didn't verbalize it, but I may have thought it.
I didn't say he stole my money. I didn't accuse that particular person.
I didn't say he stole my money. I didn't accuse him of that particular action.
I didn't say he stole my money. Not my money, but maybe someone else's.
I didn't say he stole my money. Not that particular object.

How far does the rabbit hole go? Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo.

"I didn't say he stole my money" means all of those things simultaneously. The emphasis adds meaning, but it is soft meaning. Because while the emphasis hints at a more specific meaning, all of those other things still remain true... they are just implied as irrelevant.

For example,

Quote:

I didn't say he stole my money. I didn't say it, but some one else might have.

Let’s say: Bob said "he stole my money"... Then the meaning of the emphasis is particularly relevant. But... all of the other meanings are still true... they just aren't particularly relevant.

You didn't say it. You didn't verbalize it, you may have thought it. You didn't accuse him of that action. You never said the money that was stolen belonged to you. You didn't even say it was money that was stolen.

All true. Just... not particularly relevant. That is all the emphasis does. It directs our attention toward the particular part of all the things said that is most relevant.

I’ll follow the rabbit hole all the way down. ^.^

[Remy Balster]

Komoda wrote:

Wait, what?

Quote:

If I take a double move action, I provoke once every interval of my speed

No you don't. You provoke once from each person that threatens any 1 or more squares that you leave.

If you run past 5 people with one increment you can provoke up to 5 AoOs for leaving threatened squares.
If you run back by those same 5 people with your second increment, you provoke 0 more times for leaving threatened squares.

Relevant rule:

Da Rulez wrote:

Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus.

Each square you move out of with a move action is an AoO trigger, each and every one.

However, this above rules text suppresses the ability of combatants from taking advantage of more than one, per round per target.

[wraithstrike]

Easy version--->one Action can have more than one act(trigger), and AoO's go off of triggers(acts).

[Saker]

Kazaan wrote:

Saker wrote:

There is one thing that seems to be skirted around. Making an AoO during the full attack and provoked because of the full attack.

From FAQ wrote:

If you use Two-Weapon Fighting on your turn to attack with two weapons, do you also take that penalty on attacks of opportunity made before the start of your next turn? How long do the penalties last?

No, the penalties end as soon as you have completed the full-attack action that allowed you to attack with both weapons. Any attacks of opportunity you make are at your normal attack bonus. Generally speaking, penalties on attacks made during your turn do not carry over to attacks of opportunity unless they specifically state otherwise (such as the penalty from using Power Attack).

So, a common maneuver I like to do is a flurry of blows where I start off my set of attacks with an improved trip so the remaining attacks get the benefit of +4 to hit (if target is tripped). Toss in vicious stomp for good measure.

So, are the two AoOs I get during my flurry have no TWF/Flurry penalty? To make things even more complicated, my BAB changes with flurry. I think for simplicity's sake that during the flurry all mods are applied to AoOs. Only when the flurry or TWF attack is over does it not apply.

The FAQ seems to conflict what it says with the general rule at end. Although, I do believe the AoO is taken outside whatever action is being taken I think the circumstances still warrant the penalty (and BAB bonus for flurry) if done during the maneuver. I'm trying to think of another example of a temporary penalty that wouldn't apply to AoO, but this seems to be the only one I can come up with.

That's actually a very good question. I evaluated the applicable rules and determined that, since "main-hand" and "off-hand" are terms that only have context in regards to TWF, and the penalties only apply to your "main-hand" attack and "off-hand" attack specifically, your AoO attack, which is neither, doesn't suffer from...

So, what you are saying is that AoOs defy all logic and are "magic". I can live with that just like I can live with the prone rules... it's just a game mechanic that can defy all logic at times.

I play games using MapTool, a VTT and as a simplicity to combat when I make a trip attack that is successful I then just make a full normal flurry attack where the first attack is actually my AoO. It just so happens that all the numbers work out the same with or without the flurry until I reach level 9. I'm doing a little reprogramming of the macros and I was thinking of being able to include trip, disarm and sunder in to the attack combo. Trip is really the only one that can effect your attack bonus directly although sunder could destroy a target's shield.

I had a player tell me about AoO being out of the full attack sequence and at the time I agreed with him, but I thought I'd revisit it on the forums just to make sure.

(FYI, I use "magic" in quotes to emphasize a game mechanic because I use to have a player who would dispute the logic of almost all situations bringing the game to a crawl. Saying it was "magic" seemed to help.)

[HangarFlying]

P.F.M. In the aviation industry, that is how we refer to those systems that have intricate detailings, that to a pilot, is largely irrelevant as to how it works. We just care that it works.

[Kazaan]

Saker wrote:

So, what you are saying is that AoOs defy all logic and are "magic".

Essentially, yes. AoOs are a construct of the system that abstracts the idea of an "out-of-sequence" attack. Remember that all the turns in a given round are occurring in parallel, not in sequence. The round is the same 6 seconds whether there are two characters or two hundred. So even out of your turn, the AoO is happening at the same time as when you're making your full-attack; it's just resolved before, during, or after your turn based on order of initiative. You can't pre-emptively apply TWF penalty or Flurry BAB increase before your turn and you explicitly don't for AoOs that happen after your turn, therefore it doesn't make sense to apply them during your turn because they're all happening during the same full-attack anyway.

[kinevon]

Saker wrote:

There is one thing that seems to be skirted around. Making an AoO during the full attack and provoked because of the full attack.

From FAQ wrote:

If you use Two-Weapon Fighting on your turn to attack with two weapons, do you also take that penalty on attacks of opportunity made before the start of your next turn? How long do the penalties last?

No, the penalties end as soon as you have completed the full-attack action that allowed you to attack with both weapons. Any attacks of opportunity you make are at your normal attack bonus. Generally speaking, penalties on attacks made during your turn do not carry over to attacks of opportunity unless they specifically state otherwise (such as the penalty from using Power Attack).

So, a common maneuver I like to do is a flurry of blows where I start off my set of attacks with an improved trip so the remaining attacks get the benefit of +4 to hit (if target is tripped). Toss in vicious stomp for good measure.

So, are the two AoOs I get during my flurry have no TWF/Flurry penalty? To make things even more complicated, my BAB changes with flurry. I think for simplicity's sake that during the flurry all mods are applied to AoOs. Only when the flurry or TWF attack is over does it not apply.

The FAQ seems to conflict what it says with the general rule at end. Although, I do believe the AoO is taken outside whatever action is being taken I think the circumstances still warrant the penalty (and BAB bonus for flurry) if done during the maneuver. I'm trying to think of another example of a temporary penalty that wouldn't apply to AoO, but this seems to be the only one I can come up with.

Just to throw in a situation where an AoO has a better chance to hit than the attack that provoked it:

Say you are running a melee fighter, using trip maneuvers.
Start of round you are next to enemy A, and a 5' step from enemy B, if you can step into A's space.
BAB +11 for this example.
First attack, with +11 BAB hits the prone target next to the fighter, and kills him.
Fighter then 5' steps into A's space, and takes his first iterative, at +6, as a trip on target B.
Fighter succeeds, but he has Greater Trip, so target B now provokes form Fighter.
Fighter gets his AoO using his +11 BAB.
Fighter also has IUS and Vicious Stomp, so he gets another AoO, assuming Combat Reflexes and sufficient Dex, also at +11, against a prone target.
Then, on target B, he takes his final attack, at +1, which is not as bad as it sounds, since he also gets the adjustment, whether it is +4 to hit or that his prone target now has a -4 to his AC.

We know it wasn't Target A's day, but it starts to sound like Target B is having a bad day, too.