Barbarian multiclass or dip, good idea?


Advice


Hey guys,

We have recently started playing pathfinder, I am considering some options for my babarian (name is Kadaverius). I've rolled the following stats:

STR: 19 (+2 human bonus)
Con: 17
Dex: 16
INT: 14
WIS: 14
CHA: 9

I took the Invulnerable Rager and Urban Barbarian archetype and the alternate human trait Heart of the Fields (ignore fatigue once a day)

The reason I want to multiclass or better put dip into another class is for flavor mostly although getting new powers is always interesting. My ideal build is the following with a level dip in Fighter:

Level 1 feats: Extra rage power x2: Superstition and Lesser Beast Totem
Level 2 RP: Witch Hunter and Invulnerability DR
Level 3 Fighter feats: Power Attack and Combat Reflexes
Level 3 Barbarian feat: extra rage power and Extreme Endurance
Level 4 RP: Reckless Abandon
Level 5 feats: Improved Sunder
Level 6: RP: Spell Sunder and Beast Totem
Level 7 feat: Combat Expertise
Level 8 RP: Strength Surge
Level 9 feat: not sure yet
Level 10 RP: Beast totem greater
Level 11 feat: not sure yet
Level 12: RP Come and get me

Our campaign will probably not go further than this but this is the general idea. My barbarian already has a Lucerne Hammer as reach weapon and claws as close range weapon. The fighter dip fits in nicely with my backstory:

I used to be a Captain in the army and had my own squad. One day we had to deal with a powerful wizard who managed to dominate me at will and forced me to kill my own squad members. I managed to escape after a while, abandoned my career and became a drifter. The pain that I experienced over time has grown into a powerful rage. Given that I've rolled a high intelligence score, a tactical fighting barbarian seems a viable option.

Another option would be, given the lack of a cleric (the party consists of a rogue, cavalier, Summoner and me the barbarian), to dip 2 levels into cleric for healing spells, selfbuffs and faster movement.

What do you think about this idea? I'm still relatively new to pathfinder, so maybe multiclassing isn't the best option but I like the variety and flavor. Is this a plausible build or perhaps too much power gaming?

Be advised I'm limited to the CRB and APG (I've managed to convince the GM that Spell sunder is awesome so I can take it).

I'm very interested in other player's opinions.

Shadow Lodge

This seems like a good idea. The cleric level is a nice touch. You may want to put the plus 2 into a different ability score since barbarians rage and increase their STR.


Don't like the idea of dipping in cleric.

Dipping in fighter is a good idea if you will wear heavy armor or to wear an armored kilt with your medium armor.

I think STR should always be maxed for a fighter or barbarian. Can't have STR too high.


Cleric isn't that great. It'll hurt your BAB, and you are unable to cast spells while raging anyway.

Fighter is a fine dip. It's a highway to feats, and those are allways nice to have. :)


Thanks for the feedback, I think I'll go for a fighter dip then.

@ ArmouredMonk13, what ability score would you pick to put +2 in, probably CON?


If you must dip fighter. Two handed fighter for 3 levels will do you fairly well. But then, it's only if you plan to hit and run with reach weapon. You also want spring attack and cleave if you want to go on in this path.

I think personally, barbarian is more dip worth class than fighter. But you don't want that if you want to be fighter and reach high level. Fighter grow steady and only reach it's highest point at the very end with weapon mastery. You need at least 3 level to make fighter dip useful. Barbarian dip only need 1 level to be awesome.


If you dip Unbreakable Figther you can go for some nice friggin Extra DR.


Cleric works fine on the boost to Will save, Domain Powers and also item use. For the cost of 1 or 2 levels of Barbarian? A bargain.


@ SiuoL: yeah barbarian is a great class for a 1 level dip for rage. Don't you think that fighter would be worth it for just one level? This way I can spend my feats on extra rage power and get Spell Sunder quicker than normal and not lag behind much on feats.

@ I3igAL: Thanks for the suggestion, I will look into the UF Archetype (I do have to consult with the GM since in principle we are limited to CRB and APG)

@ strayshift: Yeah the cleric dip is still in my mind, especially in combination with the Urban Barbarian which enables spellcasting during rage (if I interpret it correctly) and the domain powers are awesome.

Thanks for all the responses, I will continue reading now. :)


At level 1, as you do not yet have the Rage Power class feature yet, you cannot actually take the feat, Extra Rage Power.


Hmmm.. (unfortunately) you are quite right, so I would to have revise my character a bit. But I could still take extra rage powers on my barbarian feats and expand with the bonus feats from the fighter dip.


Level 1 feats: Combat Reflexes + Dodge (human bonus feat)
Level 2 RP: Witch Hunter
Level 3 Fighter feats: Power Attack
Level 3 level feat: Extra Rage Power (Superstition)
Level 4 RP: Reckless Abandon
Level 5 level feat: Extra Rage Power (Beast Totem, Lesser)
Level 6: RP: Spell Sunder or Beast Totem (depending on campaign needs)
Level 7 level feat: Mobility
Level 8 RP: Strength Surge
Level 9 level feat: Combat Patrol
Level 10 RP: Beast totem greater (or Beast Totem if you hadn't taken it earlier) or Disruptive if going the Spell Sunder route
Level 11 level feat: If no Beast Totem, Greater by this point then take an extra rage power for this, otherwise take extra rage power for Clear Mind going Spell Sunder / Disruptive
Level 12: RP Come And Get Me or Spellbreaker

Just my two copper. Feel free to ignore me.


Why are you wanting to go Urban Barbarian? By the looks of you're build you're planning to go melee and the base barbarian rage is better for that since youget bonus to strength and con. Urban barbarian is good if you want to to be a ranged barbarian.

In general I would recommend against dipping in Pathfinder, even more so with the barbarian. Rage powers are really good. They let you do very interesting things compared to other martial classes. If you really wanted to do spell casting stuff take a level of oracle and then go rage prophet so you loose less from you barbarian levels.

As for 12th level power, you want Come and Get Me. Without question it's a pinnacle ability. Whats better than getting to attack your enemy when he attacks and having your attack resolve before theirs. Not many enemies want to trade blow for blow with a two-handed weapon wielding barbarian.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

Keep in mind you can't take Extra Rage Power at level 1, since you don't have the Rage Power class feature until level 2.


Metal Earth wrote:
@ SiuoL: yeah barbarian is a great class for a 1 level dip for rage. Don't you think that fighter would be worth it for just one level? This way I can spend my feats on extra rage power and get Spell Sunder quicker than normal and not lag behind much on feats.

I understand what you mean, fighter does worth one level dip sometime. It gives a free combat feat and proficiency everything except exotic. However, if you are going for 19 levels of barbarian and one fighter. Might as well do full. All class have their awesome feature at the end.


@Calethos: thanks for the build advice, I will definately use it as an inspiration.

@ClaxoN: I love the flexibility the Urban Barbarian poses, giving me the option to go for a normal rage or a controlled rage. Plus so far we have fought against a lot of groups so the +1 Att and +1 AC are quite handy. If my campaign goes to twelve (or 13) I will most definately go for CAGM.

@Siuol: I still think I'm going to multiclass, the game probably won't go to 20 and the capstone in my opinion is Come and Get Me at level 12.

Can someone please enlighten me how the alternate class (human) bonus +1/3 to Superstition works? We just leveled to level 2 and I'm not sure if it gives me a bonus right now or just every three levels. I plan on taking the Superstition rage power at level 3.

Thanks!

Silver Crusade

I don't mean to be a Debbie Downer, but you've made some errors on your dipping plan that will force you to rejuggle.

When you're a 4th level character, you're a 3rd level barbarian and a 1st level fighter. This means that as a 3rd level barbarian you do not get another rage power.

This also means your plan to take CAGM at level 12, will have to wait until level 13 (Barbarian 12/Fighter 1). I strongly recommend against dipping in this case - it looks to be sub-par for what you're trying to achieve.

Also, in my opinion, Urban Barbarian is great for a 'Sheriff 'round these parts' kind of feel - if your Captain of the Guard is from somewhere off the beaten path. Extra skill points, Diplomacy and Know(Nobl) will help a Lawman out more then an extra feat.

The Human alt class bonus gives you +1/3 each time you take it, so every three times it actually give you +1 - but in order to take it the first time you actually need Superstition - so you can't start taking it until then. I'd take it starting at level 3 through to 20 for that maximum +6.


Thanks for the response Booksy. Yeah I had to revise my character a bit. You are 100% correct in respect to getting CAGM a level later. At level 3 Barbarian I can take the feat extra rage power though. I do have serious doubts our game will exceed level 10.

The extra feats I would gain from level dipping in fighter would enable me to spend my feats as a barbarian on extra rage powers without being depleted on feats. My revised plan would look something like this:

Level 1 Barb feats: Power Attack and Combat Reflexes (human bonus)
level 2 Barb Rage Power: Lesser Beast Totem
Level 1 Unbreakable Fighter: Endurance, Die Hard and Improved Sunder
Level 3 Barb feat: Extra rage power: Superstition
Level 4 Barb Rage Power: Witch hunter
Level 5 Barb feat: Extra rage power Reckless Abandon
Level 6 Barb Rage Power: Beast Totem
Level 7 Barb feat: Extra Rage power Spell Sunder
Level 8 Barb Rage power: Increased Damage Reduction
Level 9 Barb feat: extra Rage power Good for what ails you
Level 10 Barb: Beast Totem Greater
Level 11 Barb feat: Extra rage power Ground Breaker
Level 12 Barb: CAGM

I am still considering to switch in Dodge + Mobility as feats as CalethosVB suggested.


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Metal Earth wrote:

Thanks for the response Booksy. Yeah I had to revise my character a bit. You are 100% correct in respect to getting CAGM a level later. At level 3 Barbarian I can take the feat extra rage power though. I do have serious doubts our game will exceed level 10.

The extra feats I would gain from level dipping in fighter would enable me to spend my feats as a barbarian on extra rage powers without being depleted on feats. My revised plan would look something like this:

Level 1 Barb feats: Power Attack and Combat Reflexes (human bonus)
level 2 Barb Rage Power: Lesser Beast Totem
Level 1 Unbreakable Fighter: Endurance, Die Hard and Improved Sunder
Level 3 Barb feat: Extra rage power: Superstition
Level 4 Barb Rage Power: Witch hunter
Level 5 Barb feat: Extra rage power Reckless Abandon
Level 6 Barb Rage Power: Beast Totem
Level 7 Barb feat: Extra Rage power Spell Sunder
Level 8 Barb Rage power: Increased Damage Reduction
Level 9 Barb feat: extra Rage power Good for what ails you
Level 10 Barb: Beast Totem Greater
Level 11 Barb feat: Extra rage power Ground Breaker
Level 12 Barb: CAGM

I am still considering to switch in Dodge + Mobility as feats as CalethosVB suggested.

The entire point of Unbreakable Fighter is to gain you the pre-requisites for Stalwart and eventually Improved Stalwart which would allow you to dramatically improve your DR. I've made an incredible Barbarian build based on this concept and posted it on the forums before - this is the basic build with the Fighter levels coming at 5th and 20th:

Human 2nd level Unbreakable Fighter / 18th level Invulnerable Rager & Urban Barbarian
Heart of the Fields alternate racial trait, Human favored class option for Barbarians

Attributes: (20 point buy)
STR - 15 (+2 racial bonus, +1 at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th level)
DEX - 14
CON - 14
INT - 14
WIS - 12
CHA - 7

Traits:
Threatening Defender (reduce Combat Expertise penalties by 1)
Auspicious Tattoo (+1 Will saves)

Feats & Rage Powers by level:
1st - Combat Expertise
1st - Power Attack
2nd - Superstition
3rd - Combat Reflexes
4th - Lesser Beast Totem
5th - Stalwart
5th - Diehard
5th - Endurance
7th - Deadly Aim
7th - Reckless Abandon
9th - Extra RP: Extra DR
9th - Beast Totem
11th - Improved Stalwart
11th - Greater Beast Totem
13th - Dazing Assault
13th - Come and Get Me
15th - Extra RP: Extra DR
15th - Extra DR
17th - Extra RP: Flesh Wound
17th - Witch Hunter
19th - Extra RP: Eater of Magic
19th - Strength Surge
20th - Improved Initiative

Skills: (6 ranks/level)
Climb* - 1/odd level
Swim* - 1/even level
Ride* - 1/level after 1st
Handle Animal* - 1/1st level
Knowledge: Nature* - 1/level after 1st
Survival* - 1/level
Stealth - 1/level after 1st
Perception* - 1/level after 1st
Craft: Stonemason* - 1/1st level (+1/2 character level)

Diehard and Endurance are the pre-requisites for Stalwart and eventually Greater Stalwart which gives you a substantial boost of DR at the cost of attack accuracy. Reckless Abandon trades that accuracy for AC and Beast Totem trades that AC for nothing, meaning that collectively you get a big boost in DR for nothing.

Deadly Aim, Reckless Abandon and the ability to boost your Dex make you a credible ranged threat when times call for it.

He carries both a Bardiche and a Greatsword so that he has the proper weapon on hand to be able to use Come and Get Me to maximum effectiveness. And speaking of which, when using Come and Get Me, Dazing Assault resolves before your opponents attack, meaning that when it goes off as a result of an AoO, he never gets to actually make the attack. At low levels he focuses on the Bardiche, using Combat Reflexes to get extra attacks and the claws he gains from Lesser Beast Totem for adjacent AoO's.

The human bonus to Superstition makes your saves ridiculous for those who try to magic you out of the fight.

Strength Surge, Eater of Magic and Flesh Wound all kick in right when you gain the ability to Rage cycle. Another option instead of Flesh Wound would be Auspicious Mark as it and Focused Rage together give you all kinds of useful boosts to skills, checks, saves, etc.

This character has DR 4/- at 5th level, DR 8/- at 9th level, DR 14/- at 12th level and DR 20/- at 16th level. Those numbers are sick.


Wow that is an awesome build, thanks for the inspiration. I had a talk last night with the GM and he decided that with the exception of Spell Sunder rage power I can only use the Core rule book and the Advanced Player Guide, so Unbreakable fighter + stalwart is off the table unfortunately.

If it wasn't I would defintely go the route of stalwart. A dip into vanilla fighter doesn't really seem as glorious as I would exchange 2 HP (on average) and 2 rounds of rage for an extra feat and heavy armor proficiency. The Cleric dip however is still in the back of my mind. I would lose 1 BAB, 4 hp and 2 rounds of rage and gain +2 will save, a number of spells to buff, free healing a couple of times a day, more item use, 10 movement speed increase permanent (travel domain) and the option to roll (or another player) for initiative twice and take the best result five times a day(luck domain). Given the fact that our party lacks a cleric and we nearly died the last encounter, a cleric would be most useful. That does seem like a nice trade-off and would be more interesting flavour wise.

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