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A mystic theurge / Magus question. When you cast divine spells with your Magus spell slots, can you do so with spell strike?

Shadow Lodge

Don't know why it wouldn't. It doesn't seem to specify that you have to spellstrike with magus spells. I don't know that you even need to prepare divine in magus spell slots


Titinia if you are asking can you spellstrike with divine spells the answer is no. Spellstrike calls out the magus spell list.

Quote:
Spellstrike (Su): At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack.


lv 6 magus can get an arcana that lets them use other spell lists'


Zwordsman wrote:
lv 6 magus can get an arcana that lets them use other spell lists'

That may be true, but I think the OP was just asking about the magus before any optional abilities were in place.


wraithstrike wrote:

Titinia if you are asking can you spellstrike with divine spells the answer is no. Spellstrike calls out the magus spell list.

Quote:
Spellstrike (Su): At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack.

Wouldn't they just have to be on the list, so that spells that are on both lists could be used? (it doesn't say cast from a magus spell slot) For instance, Frostbite is both druid and magus so why couldn't you cast your druid's frostbite? It's on the magus list.


graystone wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

Titinia if you are asking can you spellstrike with divine spells the answer is no. Spellstrike calls out the magus spell list.

Quote:
Spellstrike (Su): At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack.
Wouldn't they just have to be on the list, so that spells that are on both lists could be used? (it doesn't say cast from a magus spell slot) For instance, Frostbite is both druid and magus so why couldn't you cast your druid's frostbite? It's on the magus list.

That would work, since it's on the magus list, but the point Wraithstrike was getting at is that if it's on only the divine list, and not the Magus list, no spellstrike for you.


Are we sure that would work? I thought the list you were casting from dictates the spell slot you consume. So even though frostbite appears on both lists if you use it through spellstrike you are therefore using it from the Magus list and therefore burning an arcane spell slot cast. The key is you have to cast "from" the list. It doesn't just have to be "on" the list.

Although even if what I just said is true you could still do it using the Theurge combined spells ability. It'd just be a little more costly.


BillyGoat wrote:
graystone wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

Titinia if you are asking can you spellstrike with divine spells the answer is no. Spellstrike calls out the magus spell list.

Quote:
Spellstrike (Su): At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack.
Wouldn't they just have to be on the list, so that spells that are on both lists could be used? (it doesn't say cast from a magus spell slot) For instance, Frostbite is both druid and magus so why couldn't you cast your druid's frostbite? It's on the magus list.
That would work, since it's on the magus list, but the point Wraithstrike was getting at is that if it's on only the divine list, and not the Magus list, no spellstrike for you.

I'm sure that was his point, but he said no without any qualifiers. Just saying that it's not a NO, it's a NO BUT...


Scrynor wrote:

Are we sure that would work? I thought the list you were casting from dictates the spell slot you consume. So even though frostbite appears on both lists if you use it through spellstrike you are therefore using it from the Magus list and therefore burning an arcane spell slot cast. The key is you have to cast "from" the list. It doesn't just have to be "on" the list.

Although even if what I just said is true you could still do it using the Theurge combined spells ability. It'd just be a little more costly.

It says from the magus list NOT from a magus spell slot. It'd have to say 'whenever a magus casts a magus spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list".


I'm still not sure it is a "no but". See my previous post.

It doesn't make much thematic sense to have it work just because the spell has the same name. One has an arcane source and one a divine. A Magus has only learned to channel his arcane Magus spells. There is an arcana explicitly for learning to channel other spell sources he knows. I don't see why you'd get around the req just because the name happens to be the same.


First sentence of the magic section of Magus:

"A magus casts arcane spells drawn from the magus spell list."
Therefore, if you are casting from the Magus list it is arcane.
Spellstrike says "casts a spell with a range of "touch" from the magus spell list.

That makes it arcane I think. The divine spell frostbite is not on the magus list despite it having the same name.


Hmm, actually, I could see it both ways. "Arcane spells from the magus spell list" could just as easily be interpreted as declaring the source separate from a body of producable effects (the spells) instead of meaning all producable effects must be arcane to be the same thing as what is on the list.

::shrug::


The specific wording:

Magus, Spellstrike wrote:
...whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of "touch" from the magus spell list...

Let's break that down. What is he doing?

Quote:
Casting a spell.

What sort of spell?

Quote:
One with range "touch", from the magus spell list

When we parse it like this, I think it's open to interpretation. Strict grammar says the spell being cast needs to be one from the magus spell list. Not a spell, regardless of origin, that is on the magus spell list. Significant grammatical difference.

However, my recollection is that the usage of the phrase "from the {blank} spell list" is seen throughout the Pathfinder books as simply meaning that, regardless of source, the spell needs to be on that class spell list to qualify.

If I'm wrong and people can find clean examples of different specific readings, then I defer back to English grammar, which would stipulate that it must be cast from the magus spell list. That is, using a magus slot as an arcane spell.


Scrynor wrote:

Hmm, actually, I could see it both ways. "Arcane spells from the magus spell list" could just as easily be interpreted as declaring the source separate from a body of producable effects (the spells) instead of meaning all producable effects must be arcane to be the same thing as what is on the list.

::shrug::

Read Yuelral's Blessing (Champions of Purity pg. 27): You cast any spells that appear on both the wizard and druid spell lists at +1 caster level and with +1 to the save DC. So you look on both lists and if it shows up on both, it gets buffed. For the magus, you look and see if the spell is on the magus list and if it is, no matter what class casts it, you get to spellstrike.


My understanding is if a magus has 1 class level and someone takes a level in cleric, that chafecter has 2 seperate spell slots. Meaning when he casts an arcane spell the magus class is casting it, and if he casts a divine spell then its the cleric class casting it.

When he becomes a mystic, then hes a mystic class when casting arcane/divine spells, BUT when he is using the abilities of the cleric, it is the cleric class, when he is using spell strike he is using the magus class. The mystic doesnt gain aditional abilities from said class because he cannot use them, the magus class he has taken can.

Hope that makes sense.


The magus needs the Broad Study Arcana:

Prerequisite: Magus 6, levels in another spellcasting class

Benefit: The magus selects another one of his spellcasting classes. The magus can use his spellstrike and spell combat abilities while casting or using spells from the spell list of that class. This does not allow him to cast arcane spells from that class’s spell list without suffering the normal chances of arcane spell failure, unless the spell lacks somatic components.


D'arandriel wrote:

The magus needs the Broad Study Arcana:

Prerequisite: Magus 6, levels in another spellcasting class

Benefit: The magus selects another one of his spellcasting classes. The magus can use his spellstrike and spell combat abilities while casting or using spells from the spell list of that class. This does not allow him to cast arcane spells from that class’s spell list without suffering the normal chances of arcane spell failure, unless the spell lacks somatic components.

This has nothing to do with spells that are already on his list AND on another list. It just means that you don't have to compare lists to see where they overlap. (IE, you could cast inflict's now w/ cleric)


Redneckdevil wrote:
My understanding is if a magus has 1 class level and someone takes a level in cleric, that chafecter has 2 seperate spell slots. Meaning when he casts an arcane spell the magus class is casting it, and if he casts a divine spell then its the cleric class casting it.

Note that spellstrike doesn't ask for a magus spell slot, only that it be on his spell list.

Redneckdevil wrote:
When he becomes a mystic, then hes a mystic class when casting arcane/divine spells, BUT when he is using the abilities of the cleric, it is the cleric class, when he is using spell strike he is using the magus class. The mystic doesnt gain aditional abilities from said class because he cannot use them, the magus class he has taken can.

Again, we're talking all about the magus ability and what it says. It calls out a list for spellstrike NOT arcane/divine or magus/druid spells. The only requirement is that the spell cast show up on the magus spell list.


graystone wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:

Titinia if you are asking can you spellstrike with divine spells the answer is no. Spellstrike calls out the magus spell list.

Quote:
Spellstrike (Su): At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack.
Wouldn't they just have to be on the list, so that spells that are on both lists could be used? (it doesn't say cast from a magus spell slot) For instance, Frostbite is both druid and magus so why couldn't you cast your druid's frostbite? It's on the magus list.

It means the magus class spell list. That is what the book always means when it says X spell list.

If you look at the various rule books each class has its own spell list, and being a mystic theurge does not suddenly add the cleric's spell list to the magus spell list.

edit:So unless it makes that spell list the spell does not qualify unless an option such as an arcana is used that specifically bypasses that restriction.


But the spell list it is stating is not his spell book, but his actual magus class spell list to learn new spells from when he levels up. His spell book holds all his spells but it is not considered the magus spell list.
A magus can learn a spell that's not from the magus spell list by copying another classes spell book, but even though he is able to cast said spell doesnt mean he can use spell strike with it. The spells he copied/learned outside his magus spell list are either found in his spell book or gifted from the divines, but are not considered from the magus spell list.

Edit-is that better? (no sarcasm)


Redneckdevil wrote:

But the spell list it is stating is not his spell book, but his actual magus class spell list to ull spells from when he levels and gains new spells, etc etc. its not his actual book, but the list the magus class by itself can learn spells to cast from when created or leveling up from.

A magus can learn a spell that not from the magus spell list by copying another classes spell book, but even though he is able to cast said spell doesnt mean he can use spell strike on it because the spells he copied/learned outside his magus spell list are either from his spell BOOK or from divine knowledge, not from the magus spell list.

Could you rewrite this? I think you made the same mistake I do when I try to write to fast at times..


wraithstrike, Frostbite is on the magus spell list. The spellstrike ability doesn't ask that the spell be cast from a magus slot, just that it's name is listed on it's spell list. So a druid1/magus2 can put a Frostbite in his 1st level druid slot, look at the spell list requirement for magus spell strike (yep, Frostbite is there) and cast away.

As far as spell lists as I pointed out above, check out Yuelral's Blessing. You see is the spell is on BOTH lists and see if you get a bonus. SO asking for spells on a spell list is looking through the lists and seeing if it's there. A wizard/druid get the buff on Yuelral's Blessing cast from both classes. The spellstrike ability DOESN'T ask for a magus spell or a magus spell slot, it just asks for a spell on it's list. being on the list doesn't doesn't equal magus spell; it just means it could be.


Redneckdevil wrote:

But the spell list it is stating is not his spell book, but his actual magus class spell list to learn new spells from when he levels up. His spell book holds all his spells but it is not considered the magus spell list.

A magus can learn a spell that's not from the magus spell list by copying another classes spell book, but even though he is able to cast said spell doesnt mean he can use spell strike with it. The spells he copied/learned outside his magus spell list are either found in his spell book or gifted from the divines, but are not considered from the magus spell list.

Edit-is that better? (no sarcasm)

See this:

UM, Magus, Spellbooks, page 9 wrote:
A magus can learn spells from a wizard's spellbook, just as a wizard can from a magus's spellbook. The spells learned must be on the magus spell list, as normal

So, no. A magus can't learn non-magus spells (without the use of some arcana I'm unfamiliar with).


BillyGoat-ty for the correction, I had forgot about the wording lol.

Graystone-i do agree if another caster spell slot had a spell from the magus spell list, that spell slot other than the magus' can be used. Im sry, I was under the impression that if a magus took a level in another spell class, that class had a touch spell that wasnt on the magus spell list, that u was saying it could be used for spell strike. Im sry, misunderstanding.

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