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A perfectly valid point, John. And no harsh criticism intended on my part. I am not as knowledgeable as I could be about timeline issues, so that fact escaped me. I was just very surprised to learn he didn't have any sort of protection against antimagic when I read the scenario after playing it. Not that there is much protection from that to begin with, nor should be.
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What he really needs is Aroden's spellbane as one of his 9th level spells so that he can immunize against antimagic field. As it stands, huddling around that spell while you combat him = Krune has 0 zero chance of success. Particularly if you get the drop on him with it, and then either surround him or grapple him. Scenario over.
I'm amazed we've not heard more stories of that being used.
It wasn't hard mode, but my sorceress had bought a scroll of antimagic field, and cast it on her familiar who flitted through a hole in the wall of stone to back up the fighter who was stuck in with Krune, alone.
The GM said that the Contingency applied, because it would limit his ability to teleport, and the antimagic field got dispelled...
Table ruling. I didn't argue with the GM, and we continued on.
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Wow desolate. I'm sorry that was your experience. Your situation was handled incorrectly on so many levels I don't even know where to start with it.
Just so others don't make the same mistake, contingency cannot function within an antimagic field, and an antimagic field cannot be dispelled (the spell will not function within it's radius).
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It wasn't hard mode, but my sorceress had bought a scroll of antimagic field, and cast it on her familiar who flitted through a hole in the wall of stone to back up the fighter who was stuck in with Krune, alone.
On the other hand, the GM was generous allowing you to use AMF on your familiar. It is debatable if that is possible due to the spell having no target and Share Spells requiring the spell to be shared to have "you" as a target. I personally would not allow it.
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On the other hand, the GM was generous allowing you to use AMF on your familiar. It is debatable if that is possible due to the spell having no target and Share Spells requiring the spell to be shared to have "you" as a target. I personally would not allow it.
Most spells with an area of effect do not have a target line. As it's emanation is centered on the caster, one might be able to argue a case for it. Strictly RAW though, I'm inclined to agree with your answer. My response was more focused on the tragic mishandling of the contingency/dispel.
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I'm looking at the AMF and something jumped out at me. Krune created this Contingency by use of a Wish. IMO this pretty much trumps everything. I would rule that the Wish prevented the AMF from even resolving, almost like a counterspell.
I was wondering though, how long should it take for players to examine and disarm each rune?
One disappointing thing I found is the Lashmistress. Impressive array of spells with terrible DR's in the 16s and 17s which at the 10-11 tier is an absolute joke.
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I'm looking at the AMF and something jumped out at me. Krune created this Contingency by use of a Wish. IMO this pretty much trumps everything. I would rule that the Wish prevented the AMF from even resolving, almost like a counterspell.
With all due respect, I think that is a very poor call. Not only would such a decision be using GM preferences to alter core game mechanics, but it would also be unfair to a player attempting such a strategy.
The only PC magic (i.e, non-artifacts and deities) I am aware of that defeats antimagic field is Aroden's spellbane (though some force effects are unaffected if already in existence prior to AMF being cast). Mage's disjunction likewise has a % chance to do so, but the later cannot even be attempted while under it affects.
While wish is one of the most powerful affects in the game, it does not, and should not trump everything.
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In this case I applaud the use of AMF before Krune can see it being cast. He has the skill to auto make all his spellcraft checks, so I would rule that casting AMF in his LoS would trigger the contingency as a counterspell.
So let's examine this situation in steps.
1). Krune's contingency:
Krune used a wish to cast contingency
before entering stasis. If Krune is ever affected by a spell
effect that would impede his ability to teleport, that spell
effect is targeted by dispel magic (CL 17th).
What is important to note in the bolded is that Krune must first be affected by the effect for his contingency to trigger.
2). Counterspelling:
To use a counterspell, you must select an opponent as the target of the counterspell. You do this by choosing to ready an action. In doing so, you elect to wait to complete your action until your opponent tries to cast a spell. You may still move at your normal speed, since ready is a standard action.
Note the bolded with this fact:
Contingency
The spell to be brought into effect by the contingency must be one that affects your person and be of a spell level no higher than one-third your caster level (rounded down, maximum 6th level).
As you can see, Contingency cannot under any circumstances be employed as a counterspell action. Unique spell effects and circumstances can certainly occur in which it is an effective counterspell, but not a counterspell action.
An example would be a contingency in which when your first turn of combat begins, you receive haste. The baddie goes first and slows you. On your turn you get the haste, and they effectively cancel.
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I agree under normal circumstances that a Contingency programmed in this matter would not work under these conditions.
However, Krune used a Wish, which is pretty much the ultimate trump card. Also, considering Krune's intelligence, he probably foresaw this as a possibility and worded his Wish properly. This is a spell that can literally rewrite reality, breaking rules is what this effect does by it's very nature. The spell effects do not matter, the fact that he used a Wish does.
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Krune used wish to create a contingency effect. Not an "ultra contingency" - just contingency. The result of the wish spell is completely resolved at that point. The effect that occurs is a simple, average, every day dispel magic. The wish in no way effects the mechanics of the dispel magic.
While I agree that wish is certainly reality alteringly powerful, it also has precisely defined game mechanics when duplicating spell effects. Going outside of that realm is possible with the "make a wish, and let the GM decide how the cards fall" portion of the spell, but at that point should not something go not quite as planned?
Out of curiosity, if you ran a table for a PC who wanted to run contingency w/dispel vs. antimagic field, would you make the same ruling for them?
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Check me on this, then, Soluzar. Antimagic field suppresses all supernatural abilities, and Krune's contingency is listed as a supernatural ability. Does he still get to use contingency in an antimagic field?
While I couldn't agree more, unless I am mistaken, I believe that Soluzar is arguing that Krune's contingency should act as a counterspell to antimagic field being cast - not simply triggering the contingency when he is subjected to AMF (which would not work for reasons you stated above), and then dispelling the AMF (which would also not work).
I understand the counterspell rules are confusing for many, but I believe I highlighted the most relevant portions of why it would not work in my post up thread.
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Counterspelling is only done while someone is casting a spell; it's an interruption of the normal routine. Once a spell is in effect, it's not able to be counterspelled. It can, however, be dispelled in most circumstances.
The argument is whether or not if Krune sees someone casting AMF, will and/or can that trigger his Contingency to counterspell them?
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Nope. It's actually because it's an evocation spell, which Krune can't cast otherwise.when i read the part of wishing for a contingency, I assumed the use of wish was to extend the duration of contingency to "permanent until discharged"
Ahh, sloth and whatnot. So the stasis effect preserved spell effects on him, that makes sense.
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Counterspelling is only done while someone is casting a spell; it's an interruption of the normal routine. Once a spell is in effect, it's not able to be counterspelled. It can, however, be dispelled in most circumstances.
I don't disagree with the straightforward interpretation. I'm mainly concentrating on the Wish. As I stated before, this is a spell that can be used to alter reality. Krune has a 31 Intelligence, he could easily word a wish to exclude this circumstance.
Separate issue: I'm assuming Kurshu could be identified via either Knowledge Planes or Religion. The problem is that she is a unique creature. What would be the DC for determining any information about her?
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except that wish is, to some extent, a modal spell.
In this case krune cast wish, chose the mode of "imitate a spell of 7th level or lower from an opposed school"
not create a spell that functions similarly to contingency but functions if even in an antimagic field.
Not "Creates a contingency where the wish attempts to remove a harmful effect that would prevent extra-dimensional travel"
Wish allowed Krune to cast contingency, after that power wish was done, and contingency was cast on Krune choosing dispel magic, and the wording used.
You don't cast Wish to do ALL of the things it lists, you cast wish to do ONE of the things it lists, or something else. In this case it wasn't something else, it was a listed thing.
So the fact that wish was used at all is no longer relevant. Currently Krune simply has Contingency with the specified wording.
As John pointed out up thread, the reason he used wish is that he CANT cast Illusion or Evocation spells.
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Separate issue: I'm assuming Kurshu could be identified via either Knowledge Planes or Religion. The problem is that she is a unique creature. What would be the DC for determining any information about her?
For particularly rare monsters, such as the tarrasque, the DC of this check equals 15 + the monster's CR, or more.
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Counterspelling is only done while someone is casting a spell; it's an interruption of the normal routine. Once a spell is in effect, it's not able to be counterspelled. It can, however, be dispelled in most circumstances.
Precisely. Although a contingency-like spell that was useful for counterspelling could be a cool future spell. In the meantime, spell turning is as close as we have.
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I'm seriously confused as to why we don't get a spellbook for Krune. How are we supposed to know what spells he can recall with his arcane bond? As far as I can tell, the only level 9 spells he knows are: Foresight, Summon Monster IX and Wish. His level 8 spells are only Horrid Wilting. This can't be right. What should we do when he wants to arcane bond a spell?
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Krune does not have a normal spellbook, it's all in his tattoos. For the purposes of the scenario I would only use it to cast things that he has prepared. (Or wish on hard mode) There are plenty of cool options without looking for other spells.
I'm thinking SMIX should do the trick. Ice Devil with at will Cone of Cold (13d6) and Walls of Ice or Astral Deva with at will Plane Shift, Holy Word, invisibility and a badass hammer. Both sound good!
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It's a toss up. Wizards that Paizo have made in other scenarios of a similar power level to Krune usually have all spells in their spell book from the core book up to like 6th or 7th level, except opposition spells, and all spells of their chosen school. I think the fairer option is to just go with what he has prepared though. He's been asleep for 10,000 years. Maybe he forgot what was written on the small of his back or something.
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After running this scenario it makes me wonder. Why they would come up with a fight against such an iconic opponent then totally gimp it into uselessness?
Both when I played and ran it the result was the same: Krune was killed as he emerged with a party standing by with readied actions.
Power creep aside why is it that most of his high level spells are useless garbage like Quickened Monster Summoning V? He does have Cloudkill and Black Tentacles and a single cast of Horrid Wilting.
It's almost as if he's expected to lose.
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It's almost as if he's expected to lose.
Well...yeah. While I could certainly see some good fun coming out of a scenario featuring a desperate situation in which the PCs struggle valiantly before their heroic and untimely demise, that sort of thing is nothing something the average gamer wants to face lightly or frequently.
Ultimately, they had to design Krune to be a tough but defeatable enemy. If they had maximized his spell selection, he would be next to impossible to beat for characters of 11th level with no spells higher than 6th level to support them due to scroll regulation in PFS.
Readied actions can be a pain, but the scenario states he exits his coffin by using his dimensional steps ability - but it does not say precisely where he exits. A fair use of that exit would be to place him 30 ft. or so away from his coffin - close enough to engage in conversation, but far enough away that a melee character's readied action would likely be less help if they stood near the coffin.
And while his spell list isn't "killer", it's not awful either. A group without freedom of movement and life bubble or similar is going to have a hell of a time trying to fight him. An empowered maximized horrid wilting is flat out devastating at that level too.
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I had him dimensional step onto the top of his coffin, as in "bow down before me, look at all of you below me." When he saw no one was bowing down before him, he quickened dim door'd back to the entry hall. The quicken summons became really useful when he had 2 rounds to summon while the PCs were searching for him in the complex.
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It's almost as if he's expected to lose.
As Lormyr noted above, scenarios that are guaranteed killers are not popular, and in carefully watching the reviews for scenarios, I can directly cite examples that back up this view. As a result, it's not in my interest, the campaign's interest, or the typical player's interest for me to assign and develop scenarios that offer death, death, and only death except perhaps for the occasional Ruins of Bonekeep adventure in which we forewarn the players about the deadliness ahead of time. Even that allows for player success, albeit in the face of considerable odds.
Mitigating circumstances need not be perceived as "gimping." Rather, they allow us to tell an even greater variety of stories for a given level.
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As a result, it's not in my interest, the campaign's interest, or the typical player's interest for me to assign and develop scenarios that offer death, death, and only death except perhaps for the occasional Ruins of Bonekeep adventure in which we forewarn the players about the deadliness ahead of time. Even that allows for player success, albeit in the face of considerable odds.
Though on that point, I love the concept of Bonekeep and it's sequel, and can't wait for a chance to play them. I personally really like a tough scenario and am happy that enough share the sentiment to get the occasional printing of things like this.
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About Summon Monster IX, it seems Krune does know it, but doesn't have it prepared. In hard mode it seems to state he doesn't know Wish, but does know SMIX.
"He knows wish and may cast it through his arcane focus. Replace one of his quickened summon monster V spells with summon monster IX"
Am I correct in interpreting it like this? SMIX seems to be a better and more logical choice, due to him being a conjurer, use of his Arcane Bond than something like another Horrid Wilting.
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Note you can only ready actions in combat. Krune should not show up and die, he should show up and initiative should be rolled.This. If they're standing around the coffin, they're also in the sloth mist.
Not this precisely. There is nothing specifically that prevents readying "out of combat" (not an argument for this thread of course). I *fully* agree you can't ready for the unexpected though - if you have no clue when Krune will show up, there's no gain from readying.
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Is Kurshu's weakness ability already factored into her stat block
I don't think so but just want to double check.
Yes they are. The easiest way to check is looking at her HP (she's got a -75 in there.)
Also her higher tier version is just suffering from fewer negative levels, but is otherwise the same character.