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I disagree with this. The exact same spell shouldn't be better just because the GM is using it. Plus it's unclear anyway since the only direction I can find is from James Jacobs who contradicts himself. link1 link2
I agree, it has never been clear. But I tend to subscribe to the second's link interpretation.
On the first point, there are plenty of things that the GM has access to when the players don't. Assassin-class NPCs, for example. And like JJ mentioned there, I don't think the bestiary 2-3 elementals makes SM spells that much, if any, better.
But I think both are correct interpretations. To be safe, I would recommend sticking with Best. 1, but if a GM summoned a lightning elemental on me I would not be mad myself. YMMV.
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I'm convinced the real secret to winning this is multiple dimension doors on the PCs side. Krune has a lot of teleportation, and the best answer is either a dimensional lock or a lot of teleportation of your own.
Agreed.
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I ran into an interesting conundrum while GMing this on Hardmode at my home game.
The Party Wizard had insanely high initiative and acted first. He immediately cast Dominate Person on Krune.
After we were done (the party won), I asked the Wizard what he would have Ordered Krune to do had he failed his will save. The Wizard grinned and without pause said he would have commanded Krune to name all the spells he could cast, because he figured a Wizard that high level would have Wish (especially after Kurshu had Limited Wish). If he did, he said he would have wished for Krune to Wish for a +1 increase for the Wizard's INT modifier.
Would this bonus have been permanent? Could he have wished for some other permanent boon? Could he have commanded Krune to give him his spellbook? I mean the possibilities were pretty open-ended for the effects of a successfully Dominated Krune.
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If I was running this and by some miracle a PC got off a dominate on him before being interrupted or their line of effect broken by teleportation, and Krune also failed his second save as well when inevitably instructed to go against his nature, I would not seek to screw the player out of it. I would let it stand because I would be disappointed if I was in that player's shoes and the GM brushed me off.
That said, managing to dominate him will not end the fight. The mission success condition is killing the guy, so while it might make your job a little easier in terms of preparing to face him, a successful dominate is by no means scenario over.
You may also consider that because his weapon is intelligent, it may continue to battle on his behalf if dominated as it will be clear to it that Krune got whammied. Even if Krune instructs it to cease it might carry on for his own "good".
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Wish has a material component of a diamond worth 25000 gp. I'm sure Krune doesn't carry this stuff around (unless it's clearly listed in the "gear" section of his stat block).
Sure, the PC might order him to aquire that diamond. But IMO, that's the stupidest thing he could do. Krune would teleport away and begin looking for such a diamond. All the GM has to do now is to rule that Krune isn't able to find a diamond worth 25000 gp (those things are quite rare). After about 1 1/2 weeks of searching for a suitable diamond, Dominate Person's effect ends and Krune is free to do whatever he likes. Now he will begin wrecking havoc without the PCs even knowing where he is.
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Contingency would have to trigger before the saves. If he's already rolling saves, it's past the point of being able to counter it.
Ummm his contingency is not to use dispel magic to counter an effect. It's to target a dispel magic against a magical effect that is preventing him from teleporting. It would open happen after the effect had stuck.
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Hardmode has Krune with Wish and 75k worth of diamond, specifically.
However, if Krune's not using Wish to dump the entire party onto the negative energy plane you're not playing Hard Mode right.
Heart of the sun. You could survive the negative energy plane with death ward. The sun pretty much kills you outright, even if you're fire immune. I can't claim credit for the sun idea, though--somebody else pointed it out upthread.
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Heart of the sun. You could survive the negative energy plane with death ward. The sun pretty much kills you outright, even if you're fire immune. I can't claim credit for the sun idea, though--somebody else pointed it out upthread.Hardmode has Krune with Wish and 75k worth of diamond, specifically.
However, if Krune's not using Wish to dump the entire party onto the negative energy plane you're not playing Hard Mode right.
Not if you are fire immune. See Distant Worlds for more details.
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Note that after I explained the wishing them into the Sun tactic John Compton suggested that that it was not the best choice in that it there are plenty of more interesting wish options that are plenty tough without permanently destroying the PC and all their gear.
Unless your players are boasting that hard mode will be too easy, in which case I would still at least carefully consider before going kaboom.
Krune = The Sentinel??
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Note that after I explained the wishing them into the Sun tactic John Compton suggested that that it was not the best choice in that it there are plenty of more interesting wish options that are plenty tough without permanently destroying the PC and all their gear.
Unless your players are boasting that hard mode will be too easy, in which case I would still at least carefully consider before going kaboom.
Fine, fine. "I wish for you to go play with Baba Yaga."
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Fine, fine. "I wish for you to go play with Baba Yaga."Note that after I explained the wishing them into the Sun tactic John Compton suggested that that it was not the best choice in that it there are plenty of more interesting wish options that are plenty tough without permanently destroying the PC and all their gear.
Unless your players are boasting that hard mode will be too easy, in which case I would still at least carefully consider before going kaboom.
I could have fun roleplaying that. This is another one of those times that I get at least eight hours to run a scenario, right?
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If Krune winds up in the first room, have him use wish to emulate a resurrection type effect to revive Kurshu from the first fight. This way she comes back with only one negative level, and is much nastier than before.
It also places Krune safely out of harm's way while the party gets to enjoy fighting him alongside a CR 13 creature again, but without all those negative levels weighing her down.
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If Krune winds up in the first room, have him use wish to emulate a resurrection type effect to revive Kurshu from the first fight. This way she comes back with only one negative level, and is much nastier than before.
It also places Krune safely out of harm's way while the party gets to enjoy fighting him alongside a CR 13 creature again, but without all those negative levels weighing her down.
Yeah, John Compton knows nothing about this tactic *wink*
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Yeah, John Compton knows nothing about this tactic *wink*If Krune winds up in the first room, have him use wish to emulate a resurrection type effect to revive Kurshu from the first fight. This way she comes back with only one negative level, and is much nastier than before.
It also places Krune safely out of harm's way while the party gets to enjoy fighting him alongside a CR 13 creature again, but without all those negative levels weighing her down.
*grumble* …should've thrown all of them into the sun while I could…
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Note that after I explained the wishing them into the Sun tactic John Compton suggested that that it was not the best choice in that it there are plenty of more interesting wish options that are plenty tough without permanently destroying the PC and all their gear.
Unless your players are boasting that hard mode will be too easy, in which case I would still at least carefully consider before going kaboom.
Well, it is literally the nuclear option.
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John, while we have your attention if you would be so kind...
The Sun. In Pathfinder, is this actually considered a separate plane of existence, or does one require interplanetary teleport to travel their voluntarily?
It may be stated plainly in Distant Worlds somewhere, but I have been having a heck of a time trying to find where.
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If Krune winds up in the first room, have him use wish to emulate a resurrection type effect to revive Kurshu from the first fight. This way she comes back with only one negative level, and is much nastier than before.
It also places Krune safely out of harm's way while the party gets to enjoy fighting him alongside a CR 13 creature again, but without all those negative levels weighing her down.
This was my plan for when I ran it, but it turns out that I didn't need it. Just having all the quickened summon monsters plus summon monster IX turned out to be enough.
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John, while we have your attention if you would be so kind...
The Sun. In Pathfinder, is this actually considered a separate plane of existence, or does one require interplanetary teleport to travel their voluntarily?
It may be stated plainly in Distant Worlds somewhere, but I have been having a heck of a time trying to find where.
Page 3 of that book talks about the nature of the planes with regards to the other planets, describing the planets as equidistant from the planes no matter the former's orientation in space on the material plane. It further discusses the difficulty of using plane shift first to travel to another plane and then soon thereafter travel back but landing on a different planet.
Traveling to the Sun would require interplanetary teleportation, the starlight creature ability, extraordinary alternate means of travel (such as wish), or a combination of time, life-support, and vacuum-capable propulsion. As I recall, the module The Moonscar discusses such options at some length.
But no, the Sun is not another plane of existence.
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Page 3 of that book talks about the nature of the planes with regards to the other planets, describing the planets as equidistant from the planes no matter the former's orientation in space on the material plane. It further discusses the difficulty of using plane shift first to travel to another plane and then soon thereafter travel back but landing on a different planet.
Traveling to the Sun would require interplanetary teleportation, the starlight creature ability, extraordinary alternate means of travel (such as wish), or a combination of time, life-support, and vacuum-capable propulsion. As I recall, the module The Moonscar discusses such options at some length.
But no, the Sun is not another plane of existence.
Ah ha, thank you! I also found further info regarding this subject on page 53, which explains things a little more clearly for me. Not sure how I missed this my first read through.
Not directed at John, but in conversation on the matter of wishing folks into the sun:
When I GM, I try very hard to allow the game mechanics to carry themselves without me "adding" my personal discretion unless absolutely necessary. Why? Two reasons. First, I like everyone to be playing by the same unbiased rules. Second, one man's good discretion is another man's ridiculous call.
Wish has two types of effects. The first category allows you to chose from a giant list of effects that always work as intended. The second lets you gamble, literally going for any reality warping effect you desire, and likely to have unintended results.
As travelling to the sun effectively requires a 9th level spell (interplanetary teleport), which wish cannot "safely" duplicate, I personally believe using wish to knock people into orbit falls into GM discretion territory - especially if it does not carry unintended results for the NPC like it likely would a PC.
Now, I am not saying anyone is right or wrong on this. That is just my personal take on it. Besides, there are plenty of other less questionable options for that wish spell that are just as dangerous for PCs of that level. Food for thought.
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Lormyr: I missed this my first time to, but wish has the following line:
Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.
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Indeed. And perhaps my view could be thought of as nit picky of terminology, but it says it "place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions". As I discovered earlier from John and then found on the appropriate pages of Distant Worlds, the sun is not a plane of existence.
In Distant Worlds, the description of travel on page 53 goes on to suggest that the GM might consider not letting wish and miracle provide that sort of travel capability as well, which would then limit such capability to interplanetary teleport alone.
That's just my point of view though. Others are encouraged to interrupt it in their own way.
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Honestly, I would not have a huge problem with it if a GM did it to me playing. Is it super harsh? Sure. But it does only occur on the hard mode option. I am just not mean enough to do that to a table unless they tell me they want no mercy. There are plenty of other perfectly valid uses for that wish. I'm not sure what our GM was going to do with his wish. Our Krune ate a 37 point hit from my magus's readied action with reach support and biffed the concentration check to boot when he tried to 5 foot and cast, so we (thankfully) didn't get to find out.
I have no problem admitting the mechanics language of the alternate worlds vs. planes is proving somewhat troublesome for me to distinguish between. It's strange because they are very much like planes, just not exactly as far as most magic interactions are concerned. I was just thinking about hostile plane shift/wish/ect use the other day, so it prompted me to do a double take through the book to see how/if that would work. I totally overlooked the prime material being it's own plane in the process. Whoops!
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So reading this thread, I cannot help but feel that if the GM is completly uncareing and unfeeling, Hardmode can technically be labeled impossible. Or near impossible?
I mean Wish is very legal to use to send characters into the sun or failing that, the Negative Energy Plane, or even into the Prison of Rovugug?
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When I GMed this on hard mode that players asked me to not hold anything back. Krune was at about 20hp before he got a chance to act.
The entire party had a laundry list of buffs up including Freedom of Movement, Heroism, Life Bubble and the expensive Orchid's Drop (+2 alchemical bonus on all saves).
Krune managed to set up a couple nice ambushes for people coming around corners to get him, like 3 elder earth elementals from a maxamized summon monster 9 hidding in walls ready to take 5 ft steps and pummel. (I almost got a monk this way)
Eventually Krune was down to just one quickened spell (D-Door) and the only high level spells he had left were Horrid Wilting and Wish.
Desperate at this point Krune wished the party into the sun. They all made the DC 29 will save to avoid being banished to the sun.
Krune then used his quickened D-Door to go hide in his earlier cast sleet storm. He managed to summon a few more things and last a few more rounds, but eventually the party got him.
If I had it to do over again Wishing Kurushu back during one of the rounds when he was hiding out would have been an awesomer choice. The wishing into the sun, while epic and scary as Krune's last stand wasn't really interesting. It was just a save or die (With extra dire-consequences), a test of save optimization/die rolling.
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Hardmode Krune should be near impossible.
You get a Will save to avoid being teleported into the sun.
I personally feel the difficulty is acceptable. Even on hard mode, if you run in with the right party composition, Krune will die before he even gets a chance to act.
Strategic buffing makes all the difference, as Rob pointed out. We also ran freedom of movement and life bubble, and that alone pretty well makes you immune to just about all of his crowd control. Because Krune has no defenses to speak of past FoM and a decent AC, if 3-6 archers, gunslingers, pouncers, nukers, ect. go before he does with any number of right combination of attacks, he's just going to get eaten alive.
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What he really needs is Aroden's spellbane as one of his 9th level spells so that he can immunize against antimagic field. As it stands, huddling around that spell while you combat him = Krune has 0 zero chance of success. Particularly if you get the drop on him with it, and then either surround him or grapple him. Scenario over.
I'm amazed we've not heard more stories of that being used.
I understand not making his entire spell list a death trap. With 9th level spells, he could literally render himself flatly unkillable against the resources of any 11th level party. So you don't want to design it that optimized. But he does have significant gaps in his defenses which render him extremely vulnerable.
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What he really needs is Aroden's spellbane as one of his 9th level spells so that he can immunize against antimagic field. As it stands, huddling around that spell while you combat him = Krune has 0 zero chance of success. Particularly if you get the drop on him with it, and then either surround him or grapple him. Scenario over.
We thought of this, but if you are a GM and players are suggesting this tactic, you need to be ready to fully enforce the rules. It is a personal spell, so the wizard casting it will be useles. Player's items will cease to function (ioun stones will fall on the ground, stat belts and headbands will stop working which may in turn shut off feats or chains of feats, all magical buffs are suppresed, and so on. no magic armors, no magic weapons). Make sure they understand that MOST of them, except maybe 100% martial characters like fighters and barbarians, will be at a disadvantage as well.
It will depend on the party composition but yes, AMF is one of the very few "nuclear" solutions to krune. It also greatly depends that initiatives match up correctly. If Krune goes between the wizard that casts it and the barbarian doing the grapple, he can usually just walk out of the AMF and teleport. Both the wizard and the barbarian need to beat krune in initiative. And you must have an 11th level wizard in the party. The reason we dont hear of this often is because the coincidences needed to accomplish it are pretty darned high.
And how many melee brutes that grapple have you seen with amazing initiatives?
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Oh absolutely, it will definitely knock them down a peg or three using it. But it renders Krune literally unable to do anything except employ his weapon (as it is an artifact and unaffected). Overall, a very strong trade in my opinion. He will run out of teleportation long before your 11 to 22 minutes of antimagic goes away, and then you just surround and pound the guy. (this only works because he specifically does not flee the sanctum, which would be the intelligent move at that point, but more or less ruin the scenario - so I wouldn't change that)
To be fair, you don't "need" a level 11 wizard. You can purchase a scroll and UMD cast, or use a cleric with protection or magic domain.
But yeah, you would need to have some luck with initiative. However, if you disable his rune, Krune's initiative is not impressive. Even just a few "average" initiative characters going before him would not be eyebrow raising to me. (I consider "average initiative to be +2 to +5)
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What he really needs is Aroden's spellbane as one of his 9th level spells so that he can immunize against antimagic field. As it stands, huddling around that spell while you combat him = Krune has 0 zero chance of success. Particularly if you get the drop on him with it, and then either surround him or grapple him. Scenario over.
I'm amazed we've not heard more stories of that being used.
I understand not making his entire spell list a death trap. With 9th level spells, he could literally render himself flatly unkillable against the resources of any 11th level party. So you don't want to design it that optimized. But he does have significant gaps in his defenses which render him extremely vulnerable.
Might I point out that the Aroden in Aroden's spellbane only became a god thousands of years after Krune's disappearance and the Starfall?
There are plenty of spells that I would have loved to have given Krune, but I don't have the benefit of using all of the softcover books when developing an NPC because each book would need to have it's stats reprinted in the scenario. The Appendix section was already plenty long enough.
