What Pathfinder product would YOU put out to best counter the upcoming DnDNext release month?


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Gnomezrule wrote:
Optimism is not my nature but I think there is a pervasive pessimism about the future.

You call it pessimism, I call it history. I really like the Paizo team, but I don't put them on a pedestal and claim that they are more knowledgeable and capable than all the people who worked on prior editions (in some cases they actually are those people).

Silver Crusade

Gorbacz wrote:
hogarth wrote:
Erik Mona wrote:
hogarth wrote:


To keep the company in business, they need "evergreen" products to keep cashflow coming in, and I have no doubt that sales of the Core Rulebook are starting to slow. Clearly Paizo is trying some other things to try to increase their market share (e.g. the card game, the virtual tabletop, licensing comic books and MMORPGs), but I'm pretty sure that one day soon most people who want a Pathfinder Core Rulebook will have one.

I'm not interested in seriously engaging when is a good time to do a new edition, if we'll do a new edition, etc., but I did want to say that we've sold more Core Rulebooks than the year before every single year since the Core Rulebook came out*, so we're not exactly looking at a precipitous decline like you might imagine. Or even a decline, period.

* This was not the case the year after the launch, for obvious reasons, but has held true since then.

That's interesting to know, Erik! I'm glad you haven't hit "peak Pathfinder" yet. :-)
A smart business makes sure that the peak gets higher every day. I'm sure that getting out a video game, a comic, a board/card game, a Munchkin expansion, knitting patterns, goblin plushies and all that stuff targeted at non-RPG-gamer crowd in order to swoon them over to the hobby goes a long way.

Totally agree. Brand diversification and exposure gains are HUGE.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
magnuskn wrote:
Gnomezrule wrote:
Optimism is not my nature but I think there is a pervasive pessimism about the future.
You call it pessimism, I call it history. I really like the Paizo team, but I don't put them on a pedestal and claim that they are more knowledgeable and capable than all the people who worked on prior editions (in some cases they actually are those people).

So you're telling us Germans will start a global war and eradicate one third of my country again? Damn...


Not if us Swedes get there first. It's time for The Deluge, part 2: this time we're totally gonna take that darn monastery with the black madonna in it.

We'll postpone the attacks until we've got a better title for it, though.
Also, we need to convince the Finns to join up as they're independent these days.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

You really think you're going anywhere with Icyshadow as a sidekick? Man ... that "swamp the world with IKEA, install mind control devices in every Lack coffee table, force everybody to listen to ABBA, take over the universe" plot was arguably better.


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Erik Mona wrote:
hogarth wrote:


To keep the company in business, they need "evergreen" products to keep cashflow coming in, and I have no doubt that sales of the Core Rulebook are starting to slow. Clearly Paizo is trying some other things to try to increase their market share (e.g. the card game, the virtual tabletop, licensing comic books and MMORPGs), but I'm pretty sure that one day soon most people who want a Pathfinder Core Rulebook will have one.

I'm not interested in seriously engaging when is a good time to do a new edition, if we'll do a new edition, etc., but I did want to say that we've sold more Core Rulebooks than the year before every single year since the Core Rulebook came out*, so we're not exactly looking at a precipitous decline like you might imagine. Or even a decline, period.

* This was not the case the year after the launch, for obvious reasons, but has held true since then.

Cool.

Liberty's Edge

Starfinder Superscriber
Erik Mona wrote:

but I did want to say that we've sold more Core Rulebooks than the year before every single year since the Core Rulebook came out*, so we're not exactly looking at a precipitous decline like you might imagine. Or even a decline, period.

* This was not the case the year after the launch, for obvious reasons, but has held true since then.

Do you have any idea (and can you say) how much of this is people who were already gamers coming over to Pathfinder (either in addition to, or instead of, the other games they were playing), versus how much of it is completely new people brought into the hobby?

Lots of the latter would be big win, of course, but I also know that the latter is very difficult to attract.


Gorbacz wrote:

You really think you're going anywhere with Icyshadow as a sidekick? Man ... that "swamp the world with IKEA, install mind control devices in every Lack coffee table, force everybody to listen to ABBA, take over the universe" plot was arguably better.

They're good at throwing birds.

Contributor

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Gorbacz wrote:

You really think you're going anywhere with Icyshadow as a sidekick? Man ... that "swamp the world with IKEA, install mind control devices in every Lack coffee table, force everybody to listen to ABBA, take over the universe" plot was arguably better.

Oh, IKEA is part of the end-of-the-world plot, but not like you're thinking. Remember that bit in Norse myth where the Aesir go to the giants' hall, and Thor is dared to lift up the sleeping cat, but all he can do is lift one of its paws--but that was still pretty impressive because the cat was actually an illusion over Jormungandr, the Midgard serpent? Well, it's the same way now, except instead of disguising Jormungandr as a cat, the giants just paint him blue and write IKEA on the side.

Now you know.


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Kajehase wrote:
Gorbacz wrote:

You really think you're going anywhere with Icyshadow as a sidekick? Man ... that "swamp the world with IKEA, install mind control devices in every Lack coffee table, force everybody to listen to ABBA, take over the universe" plot was arguably better.

They're good at throwing birds.

We did have one of the greatest snipers of all time back in the Winter War, too.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Drogon wrote:

What I would like to see is Paizo begin to take advantage of this network the way that WotC already has. They should be utilizing their clientele and the stores who help create that clientele to its fullest. Things like Pathfinder Society one-shots (perhaps in the form of the defunct Kobold Quarterly PFS Quests) should be front and center for every store that looks at the PFRPG for its shelves (or already has it). They should have a very easy time of providing demos, and a way of capturing customers that will stick ("Liked your game? Here's the quick-play rules for your character in a handy pamphlet, along with a link to the Paizo website so you can check out everything the PFRPG has to offer. By the way, we're running a new adventure next week. You can bring your character back or try another one.") These demos should be available to local coordinators and liaisons that are independent of stores, as well. And those stores, coordinators, and liaisons should be rewarded in some way for generating traffic for Paizo.

(rest snipped)

So am I understanding you correctly Drogon, that you beleive it's not so much the 'next great thing' as it is using the technology and infrastructure already in place (and of course the manpower)?

Sovereign Court Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds

Matthew Morris wrote:
Drogon wrote:

What I would like to see is Paizo begin to take advantage of this network the way that WotC already has. They should be utilizing their clientele and the stores who help create that clientele to its fullest. Things like Pathfinder Society one-shots (perhaps in the form of the defunct Kobold Quarterly PFS Quests) should be front and center for every store that looks at the PFRPG for its shelves (or already has it). They should have a very easy time of providing demos, and a way of capturing customers that will stick ("Liked your game? Here's the quick-play rules for your character in a handy pamphlet, along with a link to the Paizo website so you can check out everything the PFRPG has to offer. By the way, we're running a new adventure next week. You can bring your character back or try another one.") These demos should be available to local coordinators and liaisons that are independent of stores, as well. And those stores, coordinators, and liaisons should be rewarded in some way for generating traffic for Paizo.

(rest snipped)

So am I understanding you correctly Drogon, that you beleive it's not so much the 'next great thing' as it is using the technology and infrastructure already in place (and of course the manpower)?

Eric's comments on the strength of the sales numbers that the Core Rule Book is seeing indicates that a second edition is quite a ways off, and really isn't currently necessary. A demographic that is continuing to grow is obviously continuing to buy into this version of the world's greatest game.

Paizo's products speak for themselves. Most, if not all, can be called very good. Many are called great by varying segments of their audience. Trying to find something to "counter" the impending launch of a major competitor is just a matter of continuing to produce the stellar products they already produce.

However, widening the audience that sees their products and engaging that audience on a level that could potentially see that initial year's Core Rule Book sales record actually fall? That would be something that would truly counter any kind of momentum that may be lost to any new competitor.

So, yes, I want to see Paizo use the resource they already have available to them: all of us who love their company and their product.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8

Thank you. That's what I inferred, but didn't want to put words in your mouth. :-)


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Winter_Born wrote:
What product would YOU release to best counter next year's (???) upcoming release of WoTC's DnD Next system which will assuredly garner some hype just by the nature of what it is?

Just because it's fun to play the game and throw something out there:

A massive box set dungeon. Multiple levels and regions, interconnected ecologies, different factions and groups, varying terrain and features (rivers, islands, temples, mines, fortresses)... the whole shebang.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
magnuskn wrote:
Gnomezrule wrote:
Optimism is not my nature but I think there is a pervasive pessimism about the future.
You call it pessimism, I call it history. I really like the Paizo team, but I don't put them on a pedestal and claim that they are more knowledgeable and capable than all the people who worked on prior editions (in some cases they actually are those people).

This is actually an argument for not releasing a PF 1.5 any time soon.

They mythical idea that they can release this "better", "cleaned up" system - that still allows you all the options you're used to, and more! - is just that. Mythical. It'll be nothing more than an avenue towards recycled material, same ol' same ol', and no measurable difference in bloat.

Sure, there might be a chance it's 'better and cleaned-up' (though not likely, considering some of the stuff that's come out of Paizo in recent times - Torchbearer, Squire, and Antagonize, anyone?), but if that did manage to somehow happen, the options people are used to would all but be gone. (Until the bloat and recycled material inevitably appears again, and nothing's changed.)

Erik's comment then continues to put the nail in the misguided idea that a 1.5 is needed in the near (or even semi-near) future's coffin.

It's all about content, content, content. APs, adventures, setting(s).


Context: I won't be buying D&D Next, but I'm sure as hell gonna play it at some point.

Given that Paizo's greatest strength is the consistently high quality of their AP/adventure design matched with awesome supplementary ideas, I think a great idea would be for Paizo to focus all their energy on writing the sweetest AP ever. It could include expansions within it, adding some new direction in mechanics for PF (psionics or science, anyone?), with new setting material (dark tapestry, hmmmmm?), while providing some of the coolest adventures (conceptually speaking) ever written, with the hype to match.

Gauntlet thrown, Paizo. I dare ya.

Paizo Employee Publisher, Chief Creative Officer

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Ok.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Erik Mona wrote:

Ok.

So Numeria it is then? ;)

Silver Crusade

Justin Franklin wrote:
Erik Mona wrote:

Ok.

So Numeria it is then? ;)

Yum!

I just realized I never answered my own query in this thread.

My answer fits in a bit with the "just keep on doing a great job, Paizo" camp, but also positions a strong candidate for the release of DnDNext.

Ladies and Gentlemen (and Bugbears), I give you the Distant Worlds leveraging "Spelljammer" AP. Alongside the AP which would explore the best selling Distant Worlds Campaign Setting book, maybe a Campaign Setting Hardcover with a fully fleshed out Space/Sci-Fi Pathfinder pseudo-spinoff. Fully compatible with the beloved Golarion based main game, it would add rules and space themed magic, archetypes, and prestige classes, plus equipment, etc.

Shadow Lodge

Winter Born wrote:
That last sentence was my purpose for the topic. I'm sad to see so many "They don't need to do anything" when I never suggested they needed to.

I got your back! -- I caught your intent with the evil suspicion such a lucrative thread might catch the eyes of the designers... and tease out hints we might not see for a few more weeks.

Winter Born wrote:
Ladies and Gentlemen (and Bugbears), I give you the Distant Worlds leveraging "Spelljammer" AP.

To this, and that evil "OK" above, I simply say this:

Will my subscriptions ever end?

/goes off to dig up another $200 to spend next summer.

P.S. Mona needs to author one of the chapters in this AP, right?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Arnwyn wrote:
This is actually an argument for not releasing a PF 1.5 any time soon.

No, it's not. Every edition of the OGL game (3.0, 3.5, Pathfinder ) has been distinctly better than the prior edition. WotC flubbed with 4E (for me, at least), which is why we are all here.

That we got some design decisions here along the way which are questionable to some people is a good way to remind us to give constructive criticism, so that the guys at Paizo get feedback on what we like and dislike and can incorporate that in their future design (including a future edition some years down the line). Keeping quiet and just accepting everything how it comes out is the actual disservice.

I may have gotten on a bit of a tangent here. ^^

Liberty's Edge

magnuskn wrote:
Every edition of the OGL game (3.0, 3.5, Pathfinder ) has been distinctly better than the prior edition.

That is debatable, whilst PF had many areas of improvement over 3.5, I feel it also made several things worse. Overall I still prefer 3.5.

magnuskn wrote:
WotC flubbed with 4E (for me, at least), which is why we are all here.

Not me, 4e is a pretty good game (though I hate the Essentials line) with just a few areas that don't work for me. I'm only here because Paizo know how to run a living campaign better than any other company. If WotC could do what Paizo do on that front (and it was as popular, which admittedly is a big ask) I wouldn't be here.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
DigitalMage wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
Every edition of the OGL game (3.0, 3.5, Pathfinder ) has been distinctly better than the prior edition.

That is debatable, whilst PF had many areas of improvement over 3.5, I feel it also made several things worse. Overall I still prefer 3.5.

magnuskn wrote:
WotC flubbed with 4E (for me, at least), which is why we are all here.
Not me, 4e is a pretty good game (though I hate the Essentials line) with just a few areas that don't work for me. I'm only here because Paizo know how to run a living campaign better than any other company. If WotC could do what Paizo do on that front (and it was as popular, which admittedly is a big ask) I wouldn't be here.

Of course individual reasons and opinions may differ. ^^


magnuskn wrote:
DigitalMage wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
Every edition of the OGL game (3.0, 3.5, Pathfinder ) has been distinctly better than the prior edition.

That is debatable, whilst PF had many areas of improvement over 3.5, I feel it also made several things worse. Overall I still prefer 3.5.

magnuskn wrote:
WotC flubbed with 4E (for me, at least), which is why we are all here.
Not me, 4e is a pretty good game (though I hate the Essentials line) with just a few areas that don't work for me. I'm only here because Paizo know how to run a living campaign better than any other company. If WotC could do what Paizo do on that front (and it was as popular, which admittedly is a big ask) I wouldn't be here.
Of course individual reasons and opinions may differ. ^^

And they do! I still stand by my post.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Arnwyn wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
DigitalMage wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
Every edition of the OGL game (3.0, 3.5, Pathfinder ) has been distinctly better than the prior edition.

That is debatable, whilst PF had many areas of improvement over 3.5, I feel it also made several things worse. Overall I still prefer 3.5.

magnuskn wrote:
WotC flubbed with 4E (for me, at least), which is why we are all here.
Not me, 4e is a pretty good game (though I hate the Essentials line) with just a few areas that don't work for me. I'm only here because Paizo know how to run a living campaign better than any other company. If WotC could do what Paizo do on that front (and it was as popular, which admittedly is a big ask) I wouldn't be here.
Of course individual reasons and opinions may differ. ^^
And they do! I still stand by my post.

Well, nobody said I'd need to convince everyone of my opinion. :p


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magnuskn wrote:
Arnwyn wrote:
This is actually an argument for not releasing a PF 1.5 any time soon.
No, it's not. Every edition of the OGL game (3.0, 3.5, Pathfinder ) has been distinctly better than the prior edition. WotC flubbed with 4E (for me, at least), which is why we are all here.

I prefer much of what was in 3.0 to the changes made for 3.5 and Pathfinder.

Paizo Employee Publisher, Chief Creative Officer

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Justin Franklin wrote:
Erik Mona wrote:

Ok.

So Numeria it is then? ;)

I want to be 1000% clear that I did not say anything about Numeria, and anyone drawing specific content conclusions from my statement is balancing their theory on a non-existant foundation.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Erik Mona wrote:
Justin Franklin wrote:
Erik Mona wrote:

Ok.

So Numeria it is then? ;)
I want to be 1000% clear that I did not say anything about Numeria, and anyone drawing specific content conclusions from my statement is balancing their theory on a non-existant foundation.

Yep, me purely speculating humorously. Also that counts as my vote for the next AP.

EDIT: Also Erik I hope you didn't take that as putting words in your mouth and if you did I still owe you a Lion's Tap trip.


Erik Mona wrote:
I want to be 1000% clear that I did not say anything about Numeria, and anyone drawing specific content conclusions from my statement is balancing their theory on a non-existant foundation.

So what you're saying is, we should expect Numeria content in the near future?


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Rynjin wrote:
Erik Mona wrote:
I want to be 1000% clear that I did not say anything about Numeria, and anyone drawing specific content conclusions from my statement is balancing their theory on a non-existant foundation.

So what you're saying is, we should expect Numeria content in the near future?

Good as confirmed.

Silver Crusade

Erik's going to hurt you guys. ;)


Arnwyn wrote:
Winter_Born wrote:
What product would YOU release to best counter next year's (???) upcoming release of WoTC's DnD Next system which will assuredly garner some hype just by the nature of what it is?

Just because it's fun to play the game and throw something out there:

A massive box set dungeon. Multiple levels and regions, interconnected ecologies, different factions and groups, varying terrain and features (rivers, islands, temples, mines, fortresses)... the whole shebang.

This tickles my nostalgic Undermountain fancy...

Yep, let's put stuff in boxes again. Lots of stuff :)

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32

Yay boxed set! :-)


As a favor to a friend, I've been part of some recent playtests of 5th Ed. or whatever it is we want to call it. I enjoyed myself well enough. Roleplaying is roleplaying. It certainly felt like D&D and was far more enjoyable for me than 4th Ed. I played a druid, which I haven't done since AD&D way back when. Apparently they are as powerful in 5th Ed. as I've always understood they are in 3.5 or Pathfinder. Given the non-disclosure thing, I don't believe I can talk in any detail about the ruleset. I can, however, talk about my personal impressions. All fantasy RPGs are simulations, but enjoyable as 5th Ed has been so far, at least at this point in its development it feels more basic and cartoonish to me than the far more fully detailed Fathfinder rules. A bit like comparing Minecraft to Mass Effect. And I get the impression that the designers are going for maximum simplicity. Now, that may make it more attractive to a younger demographic, and if so that may give it a long term advantage as they age if those players retain brand loyalty, but I think most gamers already used to Pathfinder will not wish to switch over to a radically simpler ruleset in which their characters have fewer options. I could be wrong, of course, but that's my impression.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Why we don't do boxed sets.

Shadow Lodge

I was just thinking about boxed sets this weeks with the ENnies voting going on and how I'd be *all over* a Golarion boxed set a la From the Ashes.

Of course, I was all over the Runelords Collector's Edition despite already owning that AP, so I am a bit touched when it comes to these things.

$80 for a Avistan/Golarion boxed set? Why not make it $99 and throw some more goodies in it! The Beginner Box is pretty sweet, and I hope/assume it's doing fairly well?


Vic Wertz wrote:
Why we don't do boxed sets.

Actualy you kinda of did a box set. I mean was not the Super Delux Annversary Rise of the Runelords a box set? I mean it comes in a box with a book and a couple of pictures...just say...

Silver Crusade

Lol. After play testing D&D Next for a while, I have no clue why anyone would want to play it.

Shadow Lodge

Expax wrote:
Lol. After play testing D&D Next for a while, I have no clue why anyone would want to play it.

Because tastes differ. There are probably a lot of people who have expressed the same opnion about Pathfinder.


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littlehewy wrote:
Yep, let's put stuff in boxes again. Lots of stuff :)

And then put that box in another box.

And then mail that box to yourself.

And then when that box comes YOU SMASH IT WITH A HAMMER

... I forgot where we were going with this?


Vic Wertz wrote:
Why we don't do boxed sets.

We all know why, but that's sort of not the point of this thread.

Scarab Sages

Maybe it's time to launch Pathfinder Modern or Pathfinder Future? Same core rules, but for a modern-day or future setting.

Contributor

carborundum wrote:
Yay boxed set! :-)

That is totally what I read from Erik's post! ;)

Scarab Sages

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber
Matthew Morris wrote:

Might I add something to avoid any potential edition wars?

I believe the thread isn't the mechanics of either system. It is the marketing of the system.

Next has (potentially*) a huge budget and merchandizing behemoth behind it, from standard ads to subtle marketing by product placement (Imagine the kids (and Bulkhead, Bumblebee and Smokescreen) playing D&D in TRansformers Prime, or the My Little Ponies playing). Heck, even before the split, D&D showed up in such diverse places as Eureka and Terminator.

If I understand the original poster's intent the idea is how can Paizo counter this market blitz? I still feel they shouldn't, rather let the rising tide lift all boats. But it's not about 'this mechanic sucks, that mechanic rocks'.

WotC isn't Paizo's enemy, and vice versa.

*** spoiler omitted **

I am very surprised that WotC has not tied in their RPG system to Magic.


Expax wrote:
Lol. After play testing D&D Next for a while, I have no clue why anyone would want to play it.

Given that thousands of people are already playing it (and enjoying it!), this sounds like a mystery you ought to be fully capable of solving.


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Thinking about this...

I wouldn't as much put something out to "counter" the DnDNext release as to compliment it.

Something that would appeal to both existing Pathfinder players (so they don't feel left out) and those newly coming in (or returning after haitus) for DnDNext, something with a shiny page at the end of the book advertising Pathfinder in the hope that the new people that picked it up will decide to switch to Pathfinder thinking that the people that wrote it seem kinda cool and seem to know what they're doing.

That means something that's fairly rules-neutral. Plot twist cards, maps (maybe it's time to reduce the product listing a bit and bundle some of the older ones together in larger sets?), guides to gaming, things like that. Maybe even a dual-statted module so people can buy it safe in the knowledge it'll work whatever they end up playing.


dual-statted assumes that DnDNext is OGL, which we have no clue on yet. It also assumes that Paizo has any interest in supporting a rule system that isn't Pathfinder


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Anniversary Core Rule Book.
Biggest surprise in it: The overhauled rogue.
Rogues now get trap sense and trapfinding anyway, plus something meaningful else.
Also they can finesse all weapons, melee and reach and have medium armor proficiency as well as more weapon proficiences. Amongst them some exotic weapons, because rogues are mean and use such stuff to be mean.
Also there are some cool new rogue tricks to use maneuvers like feint and dirty trick easier and more efficient for rogues, which also have lowered prereqs for that stuff now.
The second big surprise: Stealth.....


I only skimmed this thread, so if this has already been mentioned then just add my vote to whatever is already there.

I agree that we don't need a whole new rule set. Where Paizo really shines are the setting and adventure path books. So instead of redoing their rules they should look at relaunching their setting of Golarion.

I am talking about a Cataclysm (World of Warcraft) type relaunch. Assume that every adventure path has been successfully completed. How has all of that changed the world? Then there is a "Big Event" with an epic level Adventure Path. It would start at a level where most others end. Players could pick from their retired characters which ones they would want to take on the new epic quest. At the end of the adventure path the entire world of Golarion will have changed.

After the "Big Event" Paizo can go back and revisit all of the old settings with new 1-12 or 15 level APs that explore the new situation with possible cameos from old favorites NPC (or perhaps offspring of NPCs) and familiar but now changed locations.


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Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Frankly, I think Paizo has already won this battle. Already I am looking forward to the Advanced Class Guide more than I am to the official release of D&D Next.

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