Fist of the Heavens! A guide for the Champion of Irori!


Advice

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Aelryinth wrote:

Your trick with the Crane Wing/Critical rebuttal doesn't work.

The reason is it's still one attack, you're taking AoO's at multiple parts of it. Just like you can't take an AoO multiple times on one opponent moving out of squares around you, you can't take an AoO for being attacked by one blow multiple times without real exceptions.

Since all parts of that crit/crane wing combo depend on you being attacked and hit, it's all one 'opportunity', and you'd only get the one AoO.

Which is hardly a problem, but it's not death on wings.

==Aelryinth

Actually the wording of when the counterhit AoO is different:

Perfect Opening occurs:

Quote:
when that enemy confirms a critical hit against the champion or an ally.

and Crane Riposte occurs:

Quote:
Whenever you use Crane Wing to deflect an opponent’s attack, you can make an attack of opportunity against that opponent after the attack is deflected.

So basically:

1 - Attack Happens, Critical is confirmed,

2 - Perfect Opening triggers (AoO)

3 - Attack hits Crane Wing deflects attack

4 - Crane Riposte triggers because Crane Wing deflected the attack.

And you're wrong that only one AoO can occur on an attack, for example there is the greater trip/viscous stomp combination which lets you attack a tripped enemy twice (once when you trip them and once when you're prone).

Even though its the same attack, both trigger off different things.

prototype00

Edit: Though the downside of having a sky high AC is that enemies will confirm against you a lot less (rolling one 20 is fine, two in a row?!!) so as you become harder to hit (and believe me, you are very hard to hit) the tactic becomes less commonly used.

Edit: Edit: Though this is just what I think, what do other people in the thread think? If there is disagreement, I'll put it up in the rules forum for a faqqing.


I love this guide. So much potential for fun! ^-^

Sczarni

Pirate Rob wrote:
Others wrote:
Stuff
Racial Heritage requires human.

Scion of Humanity: Aasimar Racial Trait

ArmouredMonk13 wrote:
You lose flurry and AC bonus with a shield as a monk, Others.

Good call. Totally missed that on the monk page.

I was thinking the Memory or Inevitable subdomains. To add a bit of flavor and provide a few options outside of punching things.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Prototype, I'm using as an analogue the Robilar's Gambit/Karmic Strike combo that attempted to do something very similar.

Robilar's triggers when someone swings at you. Karmic Strike occurs once you've been hit. IT was ruled that this is basically no different then moving out of one square and out of another in the same movement...it's just a different part of the attack.

Likewise, your combo triggers on one attack, at two times...when the crit is confirmed, and when the attack is neutralized. It's still on the one attack.

As for that combo, that's another potential problem, but kindly note the conditions of going prone has nothing to do with being tripped (tramples, bull rushes, grappling, etc), and it is possible to trip stuff and potentially NOT have it go prone (a flier, for example).

Meh. Need a ruling.

==Aelryinth

Shadow Lodge

Aelryinth wrote:
Meh. Need a ruling.

Not really. In PFS the characters won't get this until the pretty much are retired, and by 12th level you have much more horrible things you can do. For Homebrew at 12th or higher levels, GM will nerf if it seems OP, or let it slide.

Also, prototype, the separatist archetype for clerics is good for dips, you can get travel (ignore difficult terrain is great, and +10 move can be very nice for merfolk CoI's since fast movement isn't advanced by CoI) or Growth (enlarge person swift action... any more explanation needed?). Also, Cloistered Cleric gives more skills for the INT dump yet 2 skills needed issue, and since it gives up weapon/armor proficiency (that mr. punch without armor doesn't need), it isn't much of an issue for CoIs.


prototype00 wrote:

*scratches head* Oookay? Where did you get the impression that Channel Foci are one use items? I mean, for reference I now provide the general description:

Quote:

A channel focus is a garment or other object that incorporates a holy or unholy symbol, and has a special power when a member of that symbol’s religion channels energy through it.

Activating a focus is identical to channeling energy, but instead of directing the power outward, the cleric (or other appropriate character) directs it into the focus, expending one use of channel energy. This triggers the item’s ability; the channel does not have any of its normal effects (for example, a cleric channeling positive energy through her focus would not heal living creatures or harm undead in the area). The cleric must wear or hold the focus, as appropriate. She can still use channel energy in the normal way, even while wearing or holding a channel focus. An activated channel focus radiates faint conjuration (positive energy) or necromancy magic (negative energy). An unactivated focus is completely nonmagical — it is a channel for the magical positive or negative energy, but has no magic of its own.

Because a focus includes the holy symbol of a specific religion, in most cases a cleric cannot activate the focus of another faith (though your GM may rule that a member of an allied church can activate another religion’s focus). A cleric whose deity allows positive or negative channeling may use either type to activate a focus, though some foci may have different effects depending on what kind of energy activates them. The cleric can use the focus as a holy symbol (whether activated or not), though if it is a worn item rather than a held item she must touch the item with a free hand.

So a cleric's holy symbol spontaneously combusts when you use it to channel positive energy? Golly, we'd better put warning labels on those.

TL:DR Where the heck did you come up with that? Its neither RAW or RAI.

prototype00

Well, I'll admit I only read the description of the item itself, not the text above, which clearly shows I was wrong. That'll teach me!


ArmouredMonk13 wrote:
Also, prototype, the separatist archetype for clerics is good for dips, you can get travel (ignore difficult terrain is great, and +10 move can be very nice for merfolk CoI's since fast movement isn't advanced by CoI) or Growth (enlarge person swift action... any more explanation needed?). Also, Cloistered Cleric gives more skills for the INT dump yet 2 skills needed issue, and since it gives up weapon/armor proficiency (that mr. punch without armor doesn't need), it isn't much of an issue for CoIs.

Hmm, Separatist is not a bad choice (for the travel domain). The skill benefits from Cloistered Cleric is only for one level, so I am not equally enamoured.

Do you think the Separatist and Crusader archetypes would stack?

prototype00

Shadow Lodge

prototype00 wrote:
Do you think the Separatist and Crusader archetypes would stack?

Not RAW, but I'd allow it.

Also, Cloistered Cleric doesn't really give up much that you don't need, the only downside is it doesn't stack with some archetypes, and the +1 knowledge skills helps try to even out the dumped Int. Still, not the best of choices, but perhaps worth a mention.

Shadow Lodge

Quote:
outside of smiting, the spirit build seems to be extremely low on the damage side.

Maybe a bit late on posting this, but since spirits have generally a higher Cha score, they will have a better UMD score, which means you can get wands of Mage Armor and Bracers of the avenging knight, as opposed to the body build which will have a lower Cha and a lower UMD and bracers of armor since they will be more focused on damage.


The idea to boost UMD is in general a good one (I think I make note of it as much in the guide), it would be the way to go except for the complete lack of skill points for all the things that need to be done with the build. Still if you are willing to sacrifice another skill, it is a good pick.

prototype00

Shadow Lodge

prototype00 wrote:

The idea to boost UMD is in general a good one (I think I make note of it as much in the guide), it would be the way to go except for the complete lack of skill points for all the things that need to be done with the build. Still if you are willing to sacrifice another skill, it is a good pick.

prototype00

Yeah, UMD is a great skill to boost. My point was just that spirits will have it earlier.

Also, Crushing Blow feat seems pretty great for a spirit (reduce foes AC by your highest stat for a minute when you stunning fist).


It's a full round action. You could be flurrying up close instead. I'm not sure you aren't just better off Stunning him again.

Shadow Lodge

LoneKnave wrote:
It's a full round action. You could be flurrying up close instead. I'm not sure you aren't just better off Stunning him again.

However, doing this helps the whole party with the AC penalty. It means that it is easier for your next flurry to hit the foe. It helps with Tank villans, along with essentially a bonus to hit for when you face something you can't smite.


Hmm, interesting PrC, nice guide. Though, this PrC is far more MAD than you let on (Con you rank as 5th most important stat, I mean...come on!) and takes a while to "get to the good stuff", like most PrC's. I don't think I'd ever play this in a game unless all of the following applied: starting at mid/high levels (at least level 5-6, preferably higher), 25 point buy or greater, and guided weapon allowed. ...Not many games meet all of those criteria.

Some notes as I read along:

Spoiler:
Martial Artist: Blue? The level-based benefits are paltry, and I'd honestly try my hardest to ditch the ones that require not wearing armor and dump dex a bit to reduce MAD anyway. Don't suppose this would stack levels for flurry replacements like Fuse Styles?

Perfect Opening: It's only once/round, so why does this feature implore you to take Combat Reflexes, exactly? It's not like you're gonna threaten far with unarmed strike and get a ton of AoOs anyway. I guess the combo w/ Crane Riposte semi-justifies it, but barely.
Also, you should note that the AoO does NOT need to be unarmed. So a x4 crit weapon held in hand might be worth investing in... "You crit my friend? Heavy pick to the face!"

Code of Conduct: Not being able to have followers, cohorts, or even familiars is actually a pretty big pain on a somewhat charisma-based build. I could see the ban on taking/giving loans being annoying; too many times IME a PC has wanted an item but been a few hundred gp short and another character lends them the extra amount.

Aasimar: The spark of life is a 1/day SLA, and while it lasts 24 hours, it could totally get dispelled. And it only lets you ignore middle age, which is a very minor set of stat buffs. Still the best race for CoI probably, just pointing out.

Hobgoblin: How does Ironskin "allow" you to wear armor? You still would lose flurry. And replacing flurry is hard due to the archetype not being very stack-able. The AC bonus it grants is tiny, it's barely different from just using your paladin-gained armor proficiencies.

Merfolk: You realize CoI doesn't progress monk fast movement, right? So you're only getting +10 ft speed from it. Which doesn't stack with the boots of striding and springing. Speed 25 with little hope of ever increasing it further (haste would give you...30 ft; slipstream would stack...that's about it) isn't horrible, but it's definitely a hindrance.

Entry in COI, Monk, Ki Pool: It's my understanding that a Monk 3 that gets CoI Ki pool would just add his monk levels to CoI for effective monk level, so there's no need to actually take 4th level of Monk for the ki pool or to get the benefit of your monk levels to it, etc... It says, "levels in this class stack with levels in other classes that grant a ki pool." It doesn't say you need to ALREADY HAVE the ki pool. Just have levels in a class that grants one... So that's not an actual reason to take 4th level of monk.

Paladin: Oath of Vengeance Paladin is also very good, for making up for your anemic amount of smite evil/chaos per day. Even if you don't get to 4th level in it until after level 10 of the PrC (So... Paladin 2/ Monk 3 / CoI 10 / Paladin +2) and actually get the ability to burn LoH for smites. Considering Hospitaler does zilch/nada/zero for you until 4th level in as well and you still ranked it BLUE and begged the reader to take it... waiting a long time for the archetype benefit obviously wasn't a concern. Not to mention Hospitaler hurts your smites/day even more...

Oracle Archetypes: Dual-Cursed is very good for dips. Mainly because of how amazing Misfortune is (it works on any target in range including self and allies, and does NOT require you to take the the lower roll, just the 2nd roll) and you lose very little if you pick a non-harmful 2nd curse. That said, I agree...not worth dipping oracle.

Feats, Touch of Serenity: I think it's worth noting... since CoI advances Stunning Fist as monk levels, and the only thing monk levels actually *do* for Stunning Fist is a faster per day progression and ToS and the other feats are all identical in that respect... arguably each level in CoI gives you another use/day, making these feats more appealing. Punishing Kick and Elemental Fist, with 13+ uses per day, might even be worth taking.

Infinite Smite Evil: Ok...now I see why you like Hospitaler so much! :D
You can effectively get infinite ki as well via Hungry Ghost Monk or Qingong Monk with the Ki Leech power, though the latter needs 11 monk levels to get so it's not really an option here.

Magic Items:

Note that Jingasa works very nicely with the Fate's Favored trait. Or better yet, add fate's favored to the traits section.

Eye Slot: Eyes of the Eagle, 2500 gp for +5 perception is totally worth it.

Amulet of Mighty Fists: Essential for the Spirit build, which is the only one I'd ever touch this PrC w/ a 10 ft pole with in the first place. Guided on it is only 4000 gp.

Monk's Robe: As over priced as ever. Definitely not a high priority, or even low.

Bracers of Armor: Massively over-priced for the benefit. Get Mage Armor from somebody instead. Maybe use these for some low enhancement cost armor properties.

Belt of Physical Perfection: Spirit build does not need this, at all. If you ignore the unarmored features and wear armor, might even only need the +Con, not even +Dex.

Feet slot: Also mention the very cheap feather step boots, to ignore difficult terrain for like 2000 gp.

Boots of S&S: Speed bonus does not stack w/ Monk, horrible item for most CoI builds.

Weapon Qualities: Needs Guided. Badly.


Overall, very good guide.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Note: Mage armor is the last type of armor bonus you improve on the AC scale to Bracers of Armor +5 or higher, if you've any options that allow you to use the cast spell instead.

In other words, get your Deflection bonus, Nat Armor bonus, Dex bonus, Wis Bonus, Cha bonus, etc to the highest possible before bothering to spend on something better then rote Mage Armor.

However, if you can't get Mage armor, then yes, get the Bracers and slowly start improving them.

==Aelryinth


Thanks for going over my guide Stream, always happy to have your input.

Quote:
Martial Artist: Blue? The level-based benefits are paltry, and I'd honestly try my hardest to ditch the ones that require not wearing armor and dump dex a bit to reduce MAD anyway. Don't suppose this would stack levels for flurry replacements like Fuse Styles?

I hadn't given the MA much thought, since it gave up ki, I suppose it might be worthwhile, but where is the benefit? You still have to be lawful good, so you don't even get a break on that.

As to anything else rather than flurry, the RAW is rather clear (no in this case).

Quote:

Perfect Opening: It's only once/round, so why does this feature implore you to take Combat Reflexes, exactly? It's not like you're gonna threaten far with unarmed strike and get a ton of AoOs anyway. I guess the combo w/ Crane Riposte semi-justifies it, but barely.

Also, you should note that the AoO does NOT need to be unarmed. So a x4 crit weapon held in hand might be worth investing in... "You crit my friend? Heavy pick to the face!"

Mostly, Combat Reflexes is for the Crane Riposte thing (two AoOs on a crit), that and there isn't really a better (deflect arrows I suppose), second level free monk feat.

Good point about the high crit weapon to the face.

Quote:
Code of Conduct: Not being able to have followers, cohorts, or even familiars is actually a pretty big pain on a somewhat charisma-based build. I could see the ban on taking/giving loans being annoying; too many times IME a PC has wanted an item but been a few hundred gp short and another character lends them the extra amount.

Annoying but not crippling (or at least not more so than the Paladin code of conduct)

Quote:

Aasimar: The spark of life is a 1/day SLA, and while it lasts 24 hours, it could totally get dispelled. And it only lets you ignore middle age, which is a very minor set of stat buffs. Still the best race for CoI probably, just pointing out.

Hobgoblin: How does Ironskin "allow" you to wear armor? You still would lose flurry. And replacing flurry is hard due to the archetype not being very stack-able. The AC bonus it grants is tiny, it's barely different from just using your paladin-gained armor proficiencies.

Merfolk: You realize CoI doesn't progress monk fast movement, right? So you're only getting +10 ft speed from it. Which doesn't stack with the boots of striding and springing. Speed 25 with little hope of ever increasing it further (haste would give you...30 ft; slipstream would stack...that's about it) isn't horrible, but it's definitely a hindrance.

The Aasimar extra stat points end up letting you have better physical stats at character creation. Its not perfect, but I think most people would rather have it than not.

Yeah, I should probably drop the ranking for the Ironskin Monk, in the post-analysis, its not very good.

Merfolk - They aren't moving quick, but they sure do have a lot of good bonuses. I suppose if people can live with dwarf monks, a Merfolk isn't really that badly off.

Quote:
Entry in COI, Monk, Ki Pool: It's my understanding that a Monk 3 that gets CoI Ki pool would just add his monk levels to CoI for effective monk level, so there's no need to actually take 4th level of Monk for the ki pool or to get the benefit of your monk levels to it, etc... It says, "levels in this class stack with levels in other classes that grant a ki pool." It doesn't say you need to ALREADY HAVE the ki pool. Just have levels in a class that grants one... So that's not an actual reason to take 4th level of monk.

Hmm, RAW, you're actually probably right there. I wonder how most DMs would rule it though (I dread the kneejerk reaction that might arise).

Quote:
Paladin: Oath of Vengeance Paladin is also very good, for making up for your anemic amount of smite evil/chaos per day.

It doesn't stack with Hospitaler, which would you take in the long run given infinite Smite Evil?

Quote:

Magic Items:

Note that Jingasa works very nicely with the Fate's Favored trait. Or better yet, add fate's favored to the traits section.

Nice catch! I wonder if there are any more luck based bonuses to be leveraged?

Quote:
Amulet of Mighty Fists: Essential for the Spirit build, which is the only one I'd ever touch this PrC w/ a 10 ft pole with in the first place. Guided on it is only 4000 gp.

Guided is a non Pathfinder item, made for a 3.5 adventure. Really, I have met almost 0 DMs who would spring for that.

Quote:

Monk's Robe: As over priced as ever. Definitely not a high priority, or even low.

Bracers of Armor: Massively over-priced for the benefit. Get Mage Armor from somebody instead. Maybe use these for some low enhancement cost armor properties.

Fair enough, this is quite true. I think going the UMD route and buying a wand of Mage Armor is probably the best option.

Quote:
Belt of Physical Perfection: Spirit build does not need this, at all. If you ignore the unarmored features and wear armor, might even only need the +Con, not even +Dex.

Extra damage, AC and HP? I think both body and spirit builds need this (and the headband of +wis +cha)

Quote:
Overall, very good guide.

Cheers to everyone who thinks this so far! I'll be back to put in the changes, really!

prototype00


By Martial Artist, I meant the 1st level CoI class feature, not the monk archetype.

For Fate's Favored, much later on Stone of Good Luck is a nice item to have. And Halflings and Half-Orcs (Tattoo option) get luck to all saves. There is also the Archaeologist Bard dip + Lingering Performance (to make each use last 3 rounds and triple the amount you get effectively), which gives a luck bonus to attack, damage, saves, and skills. I don't think dipping Arch. Bard is worth it for this build, though.

And when I say the spirit build doesn't need str, I was assuming Guided weapon property. As for dex, again, that would be if you wore armor and swapped/ignored the stuff that requires being unarmored. Because this prestige class is MAD as all hell. You have Int as lowest priority, but two respectable class features are int-based. You say how normally a monk couldn't afford high charisma, yet don't explain how exactly CoI allows a monk to do so (hint: it doesn't. It does diddly squat to reduce monk's MAD, it just makes it worse.) You need to do everything humanly possible with this build to slough off the amount of ability scores you need to invest in. Anything. Get guided weapon. Wear armor. Whatever it takes.


Monastic Legacy could use a FAQ. Or even an errata. Because it seems to me that, as written, your CoI levels will be increasing your unarmed damage at one and a half levels per; which is enough to eventually get your unarmed damage to be higher than a single class monk.

On a completely unrelated tangent, there's a couple of spots in there where you suggest that using weapons would be less than ideal. But I'd say that a Sansetsukon (especially if Power Attacking) is going to outdamage unarmed strikes well into the teens. It's a martial monk weapon that you have proficiency with.

And so is the nine-ring sword (or temple sword even) which will allow you to use Crane Style. It won't have better base damage than your unarmed strike for as long, but it's still cheaper to enchant. And the ten-ring broadsword could be handy at some point if you can't make up your mind on which two rings to use.

In either case, there's nothing saying you can't just unarmed strike someone while having the weapon handy for other purposes. As an example, you could have a defending weapon that you never actually attack with, allowing you to always keep it's full enchantment bonus shifted to your AC.

Shadow Lodge

Stream of the Sky wrote:
Merfolk: You realize CoI doesn't progress monk fast movement, right? So you're only getting +10 ft speed from it. Which doesn't stack with the boots of striding and springing. Speed 25 with little hope of ever increasing it further (haste would give you...30 ft; slipstream would stack...that's about it) isn't horrible, but it's definitely a hindrance.

Which is where travel domain separatist comes in.


Any chance of some recommended builds? Couple of Body, couple of Spirit?

You have a large amount of recommended options, it would be useful to see what you would choose, or which options you would use for a build.

Shadow Lodge

Also, Half-Orcs can get Shaman's Apprentice and endurance as a bonus feat. Which means that Crane Style builds will be able to get stalwart more easily. And they can pick up Sacred Tattoo and get a +2 to all saves, and Skilled to help with the requirement of 5 ranks in knowledge skills&Knowledge Religion, and Tenacious Survivor feat is great for characters that are MAD and rolling with D8 Hit Dices most of the time.

Liberty's Edge

prototype00 wrote:
The final guide with Items added (I didn't put in builds as I have another thread for CoI builds, but if people want to add them in I can).

Where is this other thread where you have the CoI builds? I've found one from 2012, but curious to see if you have others?

Also, how do the builds (any of them, really) fare during levels 1-5? Which levels do you feel the builds are good at?


Add some builds to the guide it'll make reading it in future more complete.


urrgh, sorry I haven't put the builds anywhere yet. The thread from 2012 is indeed where I put my best CoI build (or so I felt it to be).

Tell you what, I'll re-purpose my Spirit CoI build for the guide this weekend if someone puts up a Body build for entry (as I haven't given those much thought).

prototype00


Probobly not as optimized as it should be as it's a quick build. May even overlook something

Angel-kin Aasimar
Ability scores: STR: 16 (+2) DEX: 10 CON: 14 INT: 12 WIS: 8 CHA: 14 (+2)
Traits: Dangerously Curious/that of the society trait that gives you extra ki (not sure on the second)
MoMS Monk 4/ Paladin (Oath of Vengence or Hospitilator) 2/CoI 10/Paladin
Skills: UMD, Know: Religion, Know: Something (Nature, Arcana or The Planes being the best bets as always). Dump your extra Monk/CoI skill points into Diplomacy till its max, then spread them around to class skills
Feats:
1: Power Attack (Paladin first for this and HP)
2B: Dragon Style
3B: Dragon Ferocity
5: Tiger Style
7: Angel Blood
9: Monastic Linage
11: Angel Wings
12CF: Skill Mastery: UMD/Diplomacy/Knowledge: Religon/Knowledge: Whatever other one you maxed
13: Tiger Pounce

Notice that most of CoI's abilities work on single attack and aren't hindered by armor (nor are any of them based on Wisdom directly)? You're using that here. Wear whatever armor you want. Also you got good charisma and eventually Skill Mastery, so UMD time. What do you have a standard character doesn't? Lots and lots of smite! Adding your LoH/2 and each point of Ki (with the ring of ki mastery) to the number of times you can smite (and you can refill your Ki off an ally's Channel Energy if they are willing to expend it for you with a channel foci) gives you lots of smite, and you can smite Chaotic foes too, so more smites.

Magic items:
Up until level 9, you have no real reason to not use a Greatsword
Non-standard items you want
Ring of Ki Mastery
Mithrial Brawling Breastplate +1
+X Allying Gauntlet
Amulet of Mighty Fists (all focused on special properties instead of raw enhancement, as it stacks with the allying)
Wyroot Whip (if allowed, this gives you really unlimited smites if you have a bit of time to flog yourself between fights)

Liberty's Edge

deuxhero wrote:
Up until level 9, you have no real reason to not use a Greatsword

Can you explain how a monk can use a greatsword to work with his monk abilities (I'm a noob when it comes to monks)? Also, what happens at level 9, and what weapon would you use at that point?


The only reason not to use the biggest weapon you can is that you can't flurry with non-monk weapons. Master of Many Styles can't flurry. So until your unarmed damage is better than a greatsword, there's no reason to use your unarmed strike.


I'll post my P4/M3/CoL6 character that I'm playing at the moment later.


I've lost the original word doc I was working on for this. Do you guys know if its possible to fuse two separate pdf docs? (Which is what I'll have to do if I want to tack on the builds at the end.

prototype00


Foxit pdf editor is your friend!


PDFAsm works. HERE and it is free.


Thanks for the tips guys!

prototype00


Dotting


Considering your extremely high AC, I feel like panther could be stronger than you say.
Of course after a few hits your GM would likely just stop taking those attacks of opportunity.


If your dm allows any 3.5 feats the feat serenity allows you to use wis in place of con for paladin abilites, and therefore a little less mad build.

Shadow Lodge

Just pointing out a few things I noticed

Feel free to ignore these though:

Halflings:You forgot about Underfoot Adept archetype (which at level 4, makes halflings as good at tripping as humans). Best use of this for a 3-4 level dip is probably going to be racial heritage as a human.

Gnomes:They are underrated in your guide IMO. They have stat bonuses just as nice as a halfling's (+1HP/level v. +1AC/Init) and 1 great racial feat (which I recall is one of the great thing about halfling CoI's).

Traits:The trait Martial Manuscript is a +2 critical confirmation with unarmed strikes, which is great with perfect opening.

Monk Vows:These will be sub-optimal, but the vow of peace isn't that bad for a monk that always fights defensively, so its an extra ki point for very little.

Sohei:The armor flurry thing is being resolved since its so debated, and is probably one of the best options for a low wisdom CoI.

if you are editing this as I post.


@ArmouredMonk13: Monk vows replace Still Mind, which is needed to enter CoI.


Indeed. The Still Mind requirement is the only reason you have more than one monk level (if even that) at all.

Shadow Lodge

They do? I never noticed that before. Sorry.


Prototype, this is fantastic. I never gave this PrC a moment's thought until I read your guide. Now I can hardly wait to try it.

You've inspired me to try building a Champion as a BBGG. The parameters would be human, 20 point build (I think that's the minimum to make this work, right?). 12th level character, most likely going the Spirit route.

Your Spirit recommendation is Wis > Cha > Dex = Str = Con > Int. Following that with a 20 point build I buy 8, 12, 12, 13, 14, 16. With human bonus and level-ups that gives me Str 12 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 8 Wis 20 Cha 14 before enhancements.

Now, a threshold question immediately appears: go with Sensei Monk (which means giving up flurrying -- ouch) or dip a level of cleric and burn two feats in order to get Channel Smite-> Guided Hand? I'm tipping towards the dip, I guess, since flurry is awesome. As you point out, taking the Crusader archetype bags a free feat -- Weapon Focus (unarmed strike) -- which basically cancels out the BAB hit for the dip. (And, woo two first level clerical spells/day.)

So, Cler 1 (crusader) and Pal 2 (hospitaler) for the Divine Grace. Then 3 levels of monk and 6 of CoI. Next question: which monk archetype? And then feat selection... as a 12th level human, he gets 7, of which 2 have been burned already leaving 5.

Thoughts?

Doug M.


ArmouredMonk13 wrote:
Sohei:The armor flurry thing is being resolved since its so debated, and is probably one of the best options for a low wisdom CoI.

Since Sohei can officially wear armor now, I think Sohei may even give a reason to take more levels in monk.


Douglas Muir 406 wrote:

Prototype, this is fantastic. I never gave this PrC a moment's thought until I read your guide. Now I can hardly wait to try it.

You've inspired me to try building a Champion as a BBGG. The parameters would be human, 20 point build (I think that's the minimum to make this work, right?). 12th level character, most likely going the Spirit route.

Your Spirit recommendation is Wis > Cha > Dex = Str = Con > Int. Following that with a 20 point build I buy 8, 12, 12, 13, 14, 16. With human bonus and level-ups that gives me Str 12 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 8 Wis 20 Cha 14 before enhancements.

Since you're building him as the BBGG, just go whole hog and choose an Aasimar with the immortal spark trait (start at middle age) for extra stats.

With that you can start with these stats:

Stats:
Str 14, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 18, Cha 16.

You'll have to pick up guided hand a bit later, but heck, since you're starting at 12, it doesn't really matter.

Feats:
Clr 1: Channel Smite (1st lvl), WF (Unarmed Strike) (Crusader Bonus Feat)
Clr 1/ Pal 1/ Mnk 1: Guided Hand (3rd lvl)
Clr 1/ Pal 1/ Mnk 1: Dodge (Monk Bonus Feat)
Clr 1/ Pal 1/ Mnk 1: Improved Unarmed Strike (Monk Bonus Feat)
Clr 1/ Pal 1/ Mnk 1: Stunning Fist (Monk Bonus Feat)
Clr 1/ Pal 1/ Mnk 2: Combat Reflexes(Monk Bonus Feat)
Clr 1/ Pal 1/ Mnk 3: Crane Style (5th lvl)
Clr 1/ Pal 1/ Mnk 3/ CoI 2: Crane Wing (7th lvl)
Clr 1/ Pal 2/ Mnk 3/ CoI 3: Osyluth Guile (9th lvl)
Clr 1/ Pal 2/ Mnk 3/ CoI 5: Crane Riposte (11th lvl)

Feats are as listed, you pretty much are unhittable at this point and your saves are divine grace boosted.

The build I made can be found here:

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2p7ss?Iroris-Champion-A-build-for-inclusion-in- the#1

Quote:

Now, a threshold question immediately appears: go with Sensei Monk (which means giving up flurrying -- ouch) or dip a level of cleric and burn two feats in order to get Channel Smite-> Guided Hand? I'm tipping towards the dip, I guess, since flurry is awesome. As you point out, taking the Crusader archetype bags a free feat -- Weapon Focus (unarmed strike) -- which basically cancels out the BAB hit for the dip. (And, woo two first level clerical spells/day.)

So, Cler 1 (crusader) and Pal 2 (hospitaler) for the Divine Grace. Then 3 levels of monk and 6 of CoI. Next question: which monk archetype? And then feat selection... as a 12th level human, he gets 7, of which 2 have been burned already leaving 5.

Thoughts?

Doug M.

Sensei is nice, but you don't really lose anything with that one cleric level and having to take the TWF feats if you want to get extra attacks is a drag. Really vanilla monk is best, because you don't have enough levels in it for it to be worth anything yet.

Hope that helps.

prototype00


Samasboy1 wrote:
ArmouredMonk13 wrote:
Sohei:The armor flurry thing is being resolved since its so debated, and is probably one of the best options for a low wisdom CoI.
Since Sohei can officially wear armor now, I think Sohei may even give a reason to take more levels in monk.

Really? I would be interested in seeing this faq ruling.

prototype00


FAQ


prototype00 wrote:


Since you're building him as the BBGG, just go whole hog and choose an Aasimar with the immortal spark trait (start at middle age) for extra stats.

For in-game reasons he has to be a human (and not middle aged). This is a Way of the Wicked campaign. There's an antagonist coming up who has an interesting backstory. IMO he's a bit lackluster otherwise -- basically just a hard hitting paladin. My PCs are already getting used to fighting paladins. Making this boss NPC a CoI will be a fascinating curve ball.

But he has to be human, and there are some thematic limitations on what I'm willing to do with him. Osyluth Guile is stretching it, but for the Crane Style build it's pretty hard to say no to that one.

Speaking of Crane Style: if I have this right, Crane Riposte lets you fight defensively at just -1 to hit, while gaining +2 to AC from fighting defensively and another +1 from Crane Style. Meanwhile Osyluth Guile lets you add your Cha bonus to AC when fighting defensively. So if you had a 20 Cha, you'd be giving up -1 to hit in return for +8 on AC?

Doug M.

Shadow Lodge

Douglas Muir 406 wrote:
Speaking of Crane Style: if I have this right, Crane Riposte lets you fight defensively at just -1 to hit, while gaining +2 to AC from fighting defensively and another +1 from Crane Style. Meanwhile Osyluth Guile lets you add your Cha bonus to AC when fighting defensively. So if you had a 20 Cha, you'd be giving up -1 to hit in return for +8 on AC?

Yep, that's how it works. Put at least 3 ranks in acrobatic though. Then you get an additional +1, for a total +9 AC.

Dark Archive

ArmouredMonk13 wrote:
Douglas Muir 406 wrote:
Speaking of Crane Style: if I have this right, Crane Riposte lets you fight defensively at just -1 to hit, while gaining +2 to AC from fighting defensively and another +1 from Crane Style. Meanwhile Osyluth Guile lets you add your Cha bonus to AC when fighting defensively. So if you had a 20 Cha, you'd be giving up -1 to hit in return for +8 on AC?
Yep, that's how it works. Put at least 3 ranks in acrobatic though. Then you get an additional +1, for a total +9 AC.

One thing to note is that Osyluth Guile is only effective against a single opponent.


Titania, the Summer Queen wrote:


One thing to note is that Osyluth Guile is only effective against a single opponent.

Yeah, saw that.

Quote:
Really vanilla monk is best, because you don't have enough levels in it for it to be worth anything yet.

Monk of the Lotus gives you Touch of Serenity, right? But as I look hard at it, Stunning Fist looks better than Touch of Serenity. ToS is just "can't cast spells or attack"; the victim can still move and do other things. SF is "drops everything held, can’t take actions, loses any Dexterity bonus to AC, and takes a –2 penalty to AC." That's pretty brutal. Both scale identically for our purposes here. AFAICS the only real difference is that SF calls for a Fort save while ToS attacks Will.

Doug M.


I've played a CoL at level 12 and I think the ability to turn all your Ki points into Smite Evil's is just a bit too overpowered. When a build grants more smite than a pure paladin gets you've got to wonder whether something odd has happened.


stuart haffenden wrote:
I've played a CoL at level 12 and I think the ability to turn all your Ki points into Smite Evil's is just a bit too overpowered. When a build grants more smite than a pure paladin gets you've got to wonder whether something odd has happened.

I'm inclined to agree. This becomes less of an issue at higher levels, when the pally can smite all day long anyway -- each additional use of the power has less marginal value. If you can smite 6x/day, you won't often be running out of smites. (Even high level parties face the Fifteen Minute Adventuring Day.) But at middle levels, say between eighth and 13th? The CoI does look kinda overpowered. (Adding Smite Chaos into the mix is just gravy.)

Doug M.

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