Goblin Squad Member
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My sentiment is that each player must be responsible for the actions of his character.
If such a mechanic as permadeath were to be made something a player could choose to enable, then the player's character choosing it should have to actually forfeit what they risk if they lose.
Anything else would render the risk meaningless.
<aside: imagine the digital archeologist a thousand years from now who stumbled across the addition of the word permadeath in my custom.dic file once this computer was unearthed from the ancient ruins. What might they imagine? Had the ancients a thousand years ago actually achieved temporary death?>
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Goblin Squad Member
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<aside: imagine the digital archeologist a thousand years from now who stumbled across the addition of the word permadeath in my custom.dic file once this computer was unearthed from the ancient ruins. What might they imagine? Had the ancients a thousand years ago actually achieved temporary death?>
Future "humans" will BE digital, so:
1.) they will think permadeath was a barbaric practice that their Neanderthal ancestors practiced on them the way we view Christians in the Roman gladiator rings.
2.) They will be temporarily downloading themselves into physical bodies and murdering each other for entertainment so they will also find it ironic!
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think the near-certainty that a large number of players who chose that option would regret it and demand to be "fixed" is a very compelling reason to never offer the option in the first place.
Wurm gave characters the ability to become "champions", which then restricted them to 3 deaths. The third was be permadeath, in theory.
Too often champions were killed in part by a bug or an exploit - or so it seemed. When a champion died, each death was a step towards permadeath; so if there was any reason to contest/petition a death of a champion, it was contested with the dev. I think any permadeath ideas need to consider that case: what happens when a player dies and a game bug or exploit was the reason? What if tech problems are part of the reason? I'm sort of against permadeath options for this reason; I think they invariably cause problem that are raised to devs.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well thing about death and permadeath is that in an online video game it will not happen the most to those that deserve it the most.
There are games where permadeath is very prevalent and I'd say most of us have played one or another. But it normally works best in games you can groom a replacement rather quickly.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Too often champions were killed in part by a bug or an exploit - or so it seemed. When a champion died, each death was a step towards permadeath; so if there was any reason to contest/petition a death of a champion, it was contested with the dev. I think any permadeath ideas need to consider that case: what happens when a player dies and a game bug or exploit was the reason? What if tech problems are part of the reason? I'm sort of against permadeath options for this reason; I think they invariably cause problem that are raised to devs.
That's really the biggest flaw in permadeath or any other super severe death punishment in an online game: technical issues.
You can't start over every time your internet goes down.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The Diablo series has demonstrated the viability and appeal of such a system quite successfully. If anything players are far more attached to their characters.
MajorMUD had a max of 9 lives per level (less if you made a habit of dying frequently), it was a fact of life. I could get behind just three. It would also make complete sense to allow players to petition the nature of the death, leaving the corpse in game for much, much longer and not removing the character from a player's list, but simply flagging them as dead until a player deletes the character themself. This would facilitate GMs in being able to correct honest game issues, such as a bandit accidentally acquiring the power set of a displacer beast.
I'm also down with seeing the traditional PnP resurrection (for a price.. a big one, the longer you've been dead) made available to these players. It certainly discourages abuse and gives players some recourse for honest mistakes.
Not every player would use it, but I guarantee it would get used, a lot.
I wholeheartedly stand behind players taking responsibility for their own actions, and by and large players who are attracted to this kind of playstyle also tend to blame themselves more for their own mistakes. Those that don't, likely know how to read and saw the big red letters that said "die forever" when they made the character.
One of the biggest benefits though, it isn't having a stronger character (two non perma characters are stronger yet and having no fear of death could accomplish more in dangerous situations after all). It's how much meaning is brought to the table over the simplest of adventures.
Example:
Two warriors use a last stand-like ability so rest of party can escape to safety. One respawns a ways off and has the party help him recover his corpse. The whole thing is considered an annoyance, an interruption and they get back to what they were doing. The other warrior doesn't get to come back, the party recognizes the sacrifice that person just made for them. His death had meaning, and if those players weren't friends already, they probably are now.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I can definitely appreciate that sentiment, but generally that comes with the territory of making a game more challenging. (Anyone who has played much Demon's / Dark Souls can attest to this.) Good players still don't treat death lightly and generally death will not be treated as a means to an end.
The post you referenced seems to be encouraging players to accept the fact that their death pile will drop when they die and to get used to it. It's really not much of a leap from there to you're not getting your pile back with permadeath enabled. With that being entirely optional, it's a nice gradual transition of difficulty that addresses wholly different playstyles.
Mechanics-wise it's pretty cheap for the amount of depth it adds for some players. I do understand that this would not likely be an EE or even OE deal simply because compared to the other 10k players, probably only 1-5% would use it in earnest. Though I'm sure many would try it on an alt, at a rate much more acceptable in developing and implementing a feature for.
If nothing else a whole gladiator culture could emerge based around permadeath. ;)
@Darcness
Those that want a perma death option already have it surely? They simply delete their character when they die
*edit* just been back through posts and didnt realise you were asking for extra powers for perma death chars so ignore
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Goblin Squad Member
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It seems that perma death isn’t going to be possible within PFO. While we know that PFO is a game and that death is a setback easily overcome by respawning, it seems likely that there is going to be an in-game reason as to why our characters have been marked by Pharisma, and thus can’t die. Initially we may not be aware as to why our characters keep coming back, perhaps we will be able to investigate this in-game and learn the reasons why and perhaps gain a measure of influence/control over character death. Perhaps it could be its very own skill tree.
• We may learn how to unbind others from their soul binding points or even copy a soul binding point from someone else thus giving us access to a secure location.
• Gain extra threads
• Unbind threads from others
• Reduce the cost of threading items
• Travel to a known soul binding point without dying and leaving a husk behind. (only usable outside of combat)
• Weaken the mark of Pharisma of another so there is a delay in them respawning at a soul binding point
• Remove the mark of Pharisma from yourself or another willing party.
I’m sure most will ignore the ignore the fact that their character can’t be permanently killed, while others will use it as a legitimate reason for in-game actions. Perhaps the reason a character has gone off the deep end and entered into a murderous rampage is because they know they can’t die. I’m sure if this happened in RL many would cast aside their inhibitions and give free range to their dark side. Others might actively long for death and view their continual re-birth as a curse and a burden.
This mechanic has a lot of potential to add depth to the game for those who want to understand why the Mark of Pharisma and suddenly appeared on seemingly random people. After all with knowledge comes power.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
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It seems that perma death isn’t going to be possible within PFO. While we know that PFO is a game and that death is a setback easily overcome by respawning, it seems likely that there is going to be an in-game reason as to why our characters have been marked by Pharisma, and thus can’t die. Initially we may not be aware as to why our characters keep coming back, perhaps we will be able to investigate this in-game and learn the reasons why and perhaps gain a measure of influence/control over character death. Perhaps it could be its very own skill tree.
Mark of Pharisma Skill Tree
Nice idea! Rather than threads and other 'spiritual abilities' simply improving as characters progress, of course they should be trainable skills. That's the whole PFO mechanic!
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Goblin Squad Member
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The Diablo 2 hardcore ladder servers are dominated by PvP builds, despite the fact that PvE builds get levels faster.
Consider the implications of that.
Improper framing of conflict.
Once you go into a competitive scene you either min max or you die. Everything else is secondary.
The difference is scope I think. For PFO, you've got far more concerns than just combat, nor do I think any permadeath benefits should be only combat oriented either.
As for Mark of Pharasma, it could be as simple as that character doesn't have one.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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The Diablo 2 hardcore ladder servers are dominated by PvP builds, despite the fact that PvE builds get levels faster.
Consider the implications of that.Improper framing of conflict.
Once you go into a competitive scene you either min max or you die. Everything else is secondary.
The difference is scope I think. For PFO, you've got far more concerns than just combat, nor do I think any permadeath benefits should be only combat oriented either.
As for Mark of Pharasma, it could be as simple as that character doesn't have one.
I suppose you could try to play PFO and not compete with anyone, ever. I hadn't considered that you would want to do that AND be forced to delete your character after you disconnect at the wrong time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The Diablo 2 hardcore ladder servers are dominated by PvP builds, despite the fact that PvE builds get levels faster.
Consider the implications of that.Improper framing of conflict.
Once you go into a competitive scene you either min max or you die. Everything else is secondary.
I disagree completely. I find to many people think of things in term of burst and one on one abilities. Proper PVP is not about one on one, but about group fights. SWTOR example. A agent is pretty much the most efficent burst healer in the game, hence most people go down that path. I however am a mercenary. Our healing is lower, but were heavily armored, and our heals while weaker, often provides a defencive buff and empower the healing towards the target.
But because it dosen't have the same lovely burst and buffs don't regisister on meters, it is a unpopular path to take.
I work along side a agent, and together we have beat a group with five agents healer just the other day. They were pretty much all playing the "min max" builds and had us outnumbered. Still we managed to beat a so called "pro pvp" guild.
The only times I found the minmax builds worked would be in warzones... Which I don't consider true pvp because it is rather limiting and luckily I heard nothing of such things in Pathfinder... Lets hope it stays that way.
I've played on D2 and D3 Hardcore servers. Heck, I've played Path of Exile hardcore mode quite a bit. Lost a good number of characters too.
An MMO like PFO is WAY different. Gaining max level in D2, D3, or PoE is measured in days or weeks. In PFO, it's measured in years! Losing a hardcore D2 character was always rough, but I knew I could have another level 80+ whatever I wanted in a few days. Easily.
I'd be furious if something like what the OP described happened to me. ESPECIALLY in an open PvP world.
@OP: You describe this as a way to get rid of griefers... the problem with that is, the griefers would be able to do it, too. Do you REALLY want to give people, who by definition do things only to make others miserable, a tool like this?
Seriously?
If Permadeath's an option, eventually, on a different server or by choice then whatever, go right ahead. Otherwise, I think this is a really bad idea. Like, vampires that sparkle in the sun bad.
Seriously.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I suppose you could try to play PFO and not compete with anyone, ever. I hadn't considered that you would want to do that AND be forced to delete your character after you disconnect at the wrong time.
That rather conveniently avoids points made here in the interest of being cheeky.
As for the other, there's competition, and there's Competition. Pitting yourself against another in contest is not quite the same thing as stepping up your game and optimizing every last thing you can to acquire and maintain any edge you can over your opponent, who is also doing the same thing. Generally speaking, that's a whole different level of play and, generally, those who don't take those measures are likely to lose more often than not to someone who takes that 'contest' more seriously.
So when you say PvP builds are more popular than PvE in a competitive environment where one death knocks out a contender... I say 'duh'. (No impudence intended. For those circumstances, in my eyes that's a no brainer.)
Those limited circumstances, with that highly competitive edge are not likely to be as rampant in PFO as a whole. It's too big, with too many other things to do and completely the opposite approach to combat being the sovereign activity. Yes, people are going to take it seriously.. but very few people are going to take it to the extremes I described above.
The hardcore community would most likely have a greater density of such players doing everything they can to stay ahead of the reaper, or subsets that train up small companies to be effective one shot charges in battle, or that gladiator example from before.
Anyways, it's all mostly moot. I don't expect to see something like this for some time, if ever. I simply believe that PFO would be an exceedingly good environment to test drive such a mechanic, entirely optionally of course.
I work along side a agent, and together we have beat a group with five agents healer just the other day. They were pretty much all playing the "min max" builds and had us outnumbered. Still we managed to beat a so called "pro pvp" guild.
I must point out, playing cookie cutter builds does not a min maxxer make. Sure they're powerful, but skill goes a long way where min/max can only refine the potential you already have. Sounds like you guys worked well together, had some good synergy and played a better game. Congrats on your victory.