I'm reviving a group of 5-6 level characters from 3.5 in the RotRL AP. But, fifth level is way too high to start Burnt Offerings. If I did start at 5th, I'd have to alter the rest of the entire series, and I'd prefer not to do that.
But, several of the other chapters mention character knowledge and plots in Burnt Offerings.
Is there an easy way to get around this? Or am I trying the impossible?
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I'm reviving a group of 5-6 level characters from 3.5 in the RotRL AP. But, fifth level is way too high to start Burnt Offerings. If I did start at 5th, I'd have to alter the rest of the entire series, and I'd prefer not to do that.
But, several of the other chapters mention character knowledge and plots in Burnt Offerings.
Is there an easy way to get around this? Or am I trying the impossible?
I don't know that's there's an easy way. Burnt Offerings sets up a lot of signs for events to come in the campaign, AND it works to get PCs invested in Sandpoint and its welfare (which plays a big motivational role further in the campaign).
If faced with your situation, I'd be much, much more tempted to have those players start their characters over at 1st level (especially since you're migrating from 3.5 and, assuming you're playing using the Pathfinder rules, will need to character massaging anyway).
-Skeld
I'm reviving a group of 5-6 level characters from 3.5 in the RotRL AP. But, fifth level is way too high to start Burnt Offerings. If I did start at 5th, I'd have to alter the rest of the entire series, and I'd prefer not to do that.
But, several of the other chapters mention character knowledge and plots in Burnt Offerings.
Is there an easy way to get around this? Or am I trying the impossible?I don't know that's there's an easy way. Burnt Offerings sets up a lot of signs for events to come in the campaign, AND it works to get PCs invested in Sandpoint and its welfare (which plays a big motivational role further in the campaign).
If faced with your situation, I'd be much, much more tempted to have those players start their characters over at 1st level (especially since you're migrating from 3.5 and, assuming you're playing using the Pathfinder rules, will need to character massaging anyway).
-Skeld
We've played a "long" time with these characters, and have too many other games on to start anew.
And I am using the first edition, 3.5 rules, not the Anniversary edition.Sorry to sound difficult, but my players really want to run RotRL with these characters.
Chief Technical Officer
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I'm reviving a group of 5-6 level characters from 3.5 in the RotRL AP. But, fifth level is way too high to start Burnt Offerings. If I did start at 5th, I'd have to alter the rest of the entire series, and I'd prefer not to do that.
But, several of the other chapters mention character knowledge and plots in Burnt Offerings.
Is there an easy way to get around this? Or am I trying the impossible?
I'd say you're not trying the impossible, just the undesirable. Burnt Offerings is really highly regarded, and the thought of people skipping it just plain makes me sad. I believe that you'd end up with a version of Rise of the Runelords that's just plain not as good as it should be.
Perhaps there's a way where you can do both?
Burnt Offerings should be experienced by the players to help get them invested in Sandpoint, The Hinterlands, and helps keep interest in the story. Just because you want the players to experience it doesn't mean you need to completely scrap their old characters, or start them over.
Would it make sense that one of their characters could have a younger sibling? Have the group roll up new characters only for the sake of going through the story (with one of them being somehow tied to an existing character, like a family member), and tell them you have a planned exit. Then, at the end of Burnt Offerings, overload the final encounter and plan a TPK. The original characters then get word that their younger brother died, and the original party comes in to seek retribution.
Then again, you might need to go partway into Book 2, as I believe that the PCs are 4th level by the end of the first book... but same idea.
I think it's doable, though it may not present that much of a challenge. Arguably it doesn't need to, provided the players accept that.
You might be able to swap out the goblins for something much tougher (hobgoblin warrior 3, fey, etc). Suitable fey can behave a bit like goblins (stupid, unpredictable, irrational, silly, vicious, funny). Hobgoblins and bugbears can fill in the muscle. Goblins (in huge numbers) can still present a threat. You'll need to bump the NPCs levels quite a bit, make the sinspawn tougher and so on.
Fey druid protecting his piggies on Aldern's boar hunt. Or see the recent fiendish boar thread elsewhere.
Even so, you'd still need to change some of the plot elements. 5th level characters can do too many scenario-breaking things; getting into Thistletop will be a walkover if they can fly, fireball, scry and so on. They'll probably be able to charm Vin Vender and derail that part. And so on.
IMHO there is one advantage to starting at higher level: they will genuinely be the heroes of Sandpoint in the Swallowtail battle, rather than just another bunch of people who killed a few goblins, just like the Watch did.
See if you can nerf them a bit; perhaps make them ill (side quest to cure the disease). Or hit them with a couple of negative levels. And don't give out many xp or much treasure.
You'll run into similar problems in Skinsaw Murders, but it's obviously not so bad. The end of SM is a real TPK danger in the 3.5 version.
I have been doing something similar with Reign of Winter. My group consists of two 3rd level characters, a 4th level character, a 5th level character, and two GMPCs (I gained a couple new players from when the campaign started). To compensate I revamped the encounters so they're an additional +1 or +2 to the CR.
So boost the Goblins a little by making them 3rd level fighters (and warchanters) with max hit points and more savvy with their tactics. Make the Goblin Dogs into Advanced creatures. And then slowly ease off on the increases in CR around the middle of the 2nd book. Once they're into the 3rd book don't bother increasing any foes outside of hit points (if needed) - they might have an easier time with a few encounters but they won't advance quite as quickly and thus it'll balance out.
Also, don't boost the treasure to compensate.
Hmm....I will definitely kick up some of the encounters. I've read Burnt Offerings, and heard a lot of good stuff about it.
I will probably be using the advance-when-I-tell-you path.
Does anyone have specific advice on how to improve the encounters in the first 2-3 books? I'd very much appreciate any ideas.
Triple-check the information on the villains, especially the mini-boss and boss encounters. I forgot to use Nualia's claw attack and thus she wasn't quite the threat she could have been. (I did double-check stuff on the Greater Barghast... and even though the party buffed their Barbarian, they almost didn't succeed in taking it out. Blink is a nasty spell when used right.) And seeing that your PCs are tougher than most? Consider using different tactics. For instance, the minute the goblins are attacked, have them alert Nualia... and have the enemy prepare to attack in larger groups as a result.
Also, if you can hack it, don't worry about siccing an additional enemy or two on the PCs.
BTW, what classes and levels are you talking about here?
Okay. I'll look at it.
See, that's another problem.
There are six party members, so I'll have to bump them up a little bit more.
Half-orc Barbarian5
Elf Wizard 5
Elf Ranger 5
Human Fighter 2/Sorcerer 3
Halfling Rogue 5
Elf Cleric 5
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No matter what, you're going to have to do some kind of adjustment throughout the entire AP to account for 6 players.
Considering you're going to tell them when they level up, just have them go through the entire first chapter at 5th level. Adjust the encounters appropriately, but this way they can experience the full AP. Once they get into book 2, advance them normally. Give your players a heads up so they don't get frustrated at not advancing when they think they should be.
Regarding treasure, perhaps let NPCs keep the gear that they have, but omit any of the "found loot" to help keep the WBL in check until you get them on track.
After reading through Burnt Offerings completely, have decided to not use the 5th levels, but instead run a different adventure, most likely Conquest of Bloodsworn Vale.
After finishing Shards of Sin as a player, I'll have my group roll up 1st levels, then run RotRL with them.
Thanks for all the advice though!
Sounds like a plan! :)
Small suggestion though on Runelords: you might start the players off with double maximum hit points for 1st level, just to improve their early survivability. It's been one of the better suggestions I've been around here in a bit. :)
Sounds like a plan! :)
Small suggestion though on Runelords: you might start the players off with double maximum hit points for 1st level, just to improve their early survivability. It's been one of the better suggestions I've been around here in a bit. :)
Haha, yes it does. Interested to give the players some more history of the Runelords. Should be fun!
Why do you say that? And any other advice specific to RotRL?
First, specific advice on Runelords? Well, there's some damn fine material in the Runelords forum for various contests in the Sandpoint Festival, to make it come alive. Running these contests and building on the NPCs (perhaps some 3x5 cards with a quick writeup on personality quirks, dialogue options, and the like) can help the NPCs come to life... and thus make the PCs WANT to help out. If Sandpoint is home... then the players will fight to protect it. So basically... look through some of the sticky threads and the like. You'll find stuff that's quite useful for the game :)
As for my suggestion on hit points? I've seen in the Obit thread how goblins can sometimes crit and kill a level 1 PC quite easily. This is why I started my group off at 2nd level and just redid everything to increase the CR by +1 (additional goblins and making them fighters, for instance). But just doubling level 1 hit points can do the same without having to do the extra work.
Alternatively, the Mythic Campaign rules will be coming out in another month. I must admit I found it surprising that Karzoug was just a level 20 Transmuter. I'll likely be adding several Mythic levels to him and perhaps eliminating some of his retinue. However... the first Runewell is the perfect opportunity to add Mythic tiers to regular PCs (which also improves survivability). Mythic foes could include Nualia, the Skinsaw Man, Xanesha, Black Magga, and Mokmurian, though there's no need to have the PCs reach the 10th Mythic Tier (especially if you plan on Karzoug to have the 10th Tier, so he remains a threat).
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At the risk of making Vic sad, a person could skip it without a whole lot of trouble. You need to consider these goals:
1) Get the party to care about Sandpoint.
2) Demonstrate that Varisia used to be Thassilon.
3) Foreshadow the Old Light's significance.
...and that's about all I can think of...
Burnt Offerings does a damn fine job of doing these things, no doubt. But it also makes some thematic errors. But that's another topic...
At the risk of making Vic sad, a person could skip it without a whole lot of trouble. You need to consider these goals:
1) Get the party to care about Sandpoint.
2) Demonstrate that Varisia used to be Thassilon.
3) Foreshadow the Old Light's significance.
...and that's about all I can think of...
Burnt Offerings does a damn fine job of doing these things, no doubt. But it also makes some thematic errors. But that's another topic...
Thanks for the help, but I've already decided to run it with a whole new party
Which to me may be the best option, especially as this way you can build the story and characters. Running the existing group through a module or two for their levels works better; the only reason I'm adjusting my current group for Reign of Winter is because I have Hero Labs which makes it much more doable... and because the group wants to run the characters for the next year or so.