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Unless your party is entirely made of folks who dumped perception, they should not only hear the guardians a mile away, they should have plenty of time to prep an ambush.
"With a successful DC 25 Perception check, PCs in the entry hear Ouidda’s clockwork soldiers patrolling in area B4."
and
"The guardians make no attempt at stealth. The PCs can detect the rattling clank of the guardians’ gears with a successful DC 10 perception check before adjustments for distance and barriers."
The guardians are here in the reception room when the PCs first arrive in area B1. The clockwork guardians patrol this level on the following schedule, performing each step in 1 minute.
• Circle the table in area B4 and walk to area B2.
• Unlock area B2, give the room a cursory search, relock the door, and walk to area B1.
• Cross area B1, ascend the stairs, to confirm that the secret door at the top is closed, descend the stairs, and walk to area B3.
• Open the door to area B3, give the room a cursory search, close the door, and walk to area B4.
It takes 1 minute for the clockwork soldiers to complete a step. That's 10 passive perception checks to hear them coming if the party is in the next area...20 checks if they're in the area directly opposite the soldiers' patrol.
If the party has percept-o-bots, like the one I GM'd did, they'll have plenty of time to set up an ambush and take one of the clockworks out almost immediately.
If the party has no percept-o-bots, but has mediocre perceptions, they should hear the clockworks when they're in the adjacent area.
The only way I could see the party stumbling into the clockworks unbuffed and unaware is if they miss an initial perception check, immediately rush counterclockwise against the path of the patrol and bump into them in B4.
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Let me get this right. People are complaining that if you play up the scenario is dangerous?
Well, uh, duh. Good.
If you play up you should expect deaths a fair bit of the time.
The "complaint" wasn't from a playing up perspective because it was irrelevant for 2 of the 3 characters: a 6 and a 7. The creatures in question are not CR'd properly which means there are three instead of one or two. That has nothing to do with up or down. I was the third to go to zero or down (cleric 4/cavalier 2), and I had one action before I was dead.
** spoiler omitted **
I don't know if your gm cheated or what mike but yes they get 2 attacks OR a disarm as a standard action with a +19 and if they are disarming you. You are lucky they aren't killing you.
The table I ran last night played up with all 5th level characters. After making the knowledge check on them the 5th level magus just smiled and almost one shot the creature with a crit shocking grasp. The healer almost went down to do absorbing damage from the party but there was only unconscious players. One did go to - 11 after being crit.
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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Unless your party is entirely made of folks who dumped perception, they should not only hear the guardians a mile away, they should have plenty of time to prep an ambush.
** spoiler omitted **
** spoiler omitted **
It takes 1 minute for the clockwork soldiers to complete a step. That's 10 passive perception checks to hear them coming if the party is in the next area...20 checks if they're in the area directly opposite the soldiers' patrol.
If the party has percept-o-bots, like the one I GM'd did, they'll have plenty of time to set up an ambush and take one of the clockworks out almost immediately.
If the party has no percept-o-bots, but has mediocre perceptions, they should hear the clockworks when they're in the adjacent area.
The only way I could see the party stumbling into the clockworks unbuffed and unaware is if they miss an initial perception check, immediately rush counterclockwise against the path of the patrol and bump into them in B4.
We were going counterclockwise, had just checked out the wax-guy room, and came out to continue on. I don't recall if he asked for perception checks, but my char's perception is so low I probably wouldn't have remembered the check. Our GM was noticeably tracking rounds as soon as we stepped off the stairs, which had the entire table on edge and not really thinking clearly to begin with.
So yes, we came around the corner mostly unbuffed, saw them near the table. Initiative started with them charging us. (I don't think anybody rolled above a 5 on the initiative check)
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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(I was in the same party as thistledown, with my Shadow Lodge character)
I've just read through the other posts (I was avoiding this thread until today). I was a little surprised to see somebody describe the encounter with the guardians as 'easily avoidable', and when I saw Sammy T's post about multiple perception checks I was amazed. I'd already purchased the scenario (we'll be running it ourselves later this month), so I was able to compare our experience with what is in the scenario.
[For both my and thistledown's descriptions, flip clockwise and counterclockwise from what's in the printed scenario; our GM had drawn map flipped, so we were running in a mirror image of the encounter]
I'm pretty sure our GM had the patrol running too fast. We also had people who made a high enough perception check outside the door to B2 that we should have heard them clanking about in B4, and even had somebody sneak up to the end and peer around the corner without seeing or hearing anything.
If we'd have heard/seen the patrol as we probably should have done, it would indeed have been fairly easy to avoid getting caught by them (and have avoided almost immediately losing our paladin to an unfortunate combination of a critical and another hit, even with the paladin's AC of 29 - the GM's dice were on fire). We also wouldn't have run our arcane caster out of high-level spells!
I don't know if that would have been enough for us to successfully get all the way through the scenario, but we'll never know. We bailed out after several party members lost a lot of DEX to the swarm trap in the next room. That too, though, might have been incorrect
I also have to admit that, after reading the scenario, I really dislike the back story. My wife (who was playing at the low-subtier table, and who is actually the one who will be running this scenario for our local gamers) isn't that thrilled with it either, so I don't think it's entirely sour grapes on my part.
Personally most of the folks at our table consider themselves lucky to have got out alive (except for the paladin, of course).
I hope we have a more enjoyable time on Monday when we play "Way of the Kirin" ...
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East
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As to one thing I know we did wrong: I don't know if the paladin had anything adamantine, but best the barbar had was cold iron. In fact, I think the only person in the party with adamantine anything was the gunslinger - who rolled a 2 on every single attack. Even against touch, the cover from other party members made it a miss. So, anyone planning on ever getting in a physical fight: get an adamantine something!
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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As to one thing I know we did wrong: I don't know if the paladin had anything adamantine, but best the barbar had was cold iron. In fact, I think the only person in the party with adamantine anything was the gunslinger - who rolled a 2 on every single attack. Even against touch, the cover from other party members made it a miss. So, anyone planning on ever getting in a physical fight: get an adamantine something!
Either that, or get a better gunslinger!
At +10/+7 on ranged attacks, a +2 pistol, and an extra +1 from Point Blank Shot, it doesn't take all that much for me to hit touch AC. But it does take a bit more than a roll of 2, especially when there is cover.
The dice were definitely against us that night; I couldn't hit anything, while the GM was rolling big numbers to hit, and large numbers for the ability damage as well.
I played this scenario at PaizoCon and our party did very well, although it was lower tier.
We had a 4 Barbarian, 4 Cleric, 4 Rogue, 4 Ranger (me), 4 Inquisitor and 3 Summoner.
We were not able to capture Torch for the extra reward. I was not even aware that you were able to until talking to someone from another group later on. But I believe we blew our Spellcraft checks when he cast Dimension Door. The only thing I question is our GM said he “disappeared”, and we all were thinking Teleport, so we all thought he was completely gone.
But when you Dimension Door, don’t you actually walk through a magical opening (door)? Maybe it’s only semantics, but if we saw him walk through, we might have gone after him. However, I guess that is part of making the Spellcraft check to realize that.
Either way, GM did a great job and had a really good time.
Ok, good. So everything played out correctly then, even if it was to our disadvantage. That's the breaks when blowing your rolls!
Thanks.
Contributor
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If someone captures torch, its because he never got to act as he has a cape of the mountebank and boots of escape.
It's funny you should mention that - the group FanaticRat was in that I GMed indeed let Torch use his cape of the mounteback - just one problem with that. Two, really.
1. We had an alchemist with wings
2. She still had see invisibility up
She chased him into an alleyway (a map which I happened to have handy) and gutted him with her lance, being a grenadier.
The funny part is, they tried to spare one of them, but both of the guards still back there were barbarians, soooo...
Good thing I let them use Torch's scroll. They might have been executed by the Decemvirate. ;P
If someone captures torch, its because he never got to act as he has a cape of the mountebank and boots of escape.
I spoke with someone from another group where they identified his spell and they apparently chased him down because he dim-doored where they were able to hear him. At least that's what he had told me.
That’s actually how I found out he casted Dimension Door, originally I thought he had teleported.
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At timees this is a complicated game with lots of rules and hind sight great. There are lots of times I wish I had remembered this or that rule or dont rule a situation as someone else does. This dosnt mean I am right or wrong, better or worse. Ullar, you rulled it as you saw it and cool your players got to kill Torch. Having encountered Torch in several scenarios in the past, I had him DD to a bolt hole in the sewers. One thing I like about this treads is I get to see how others did something and think on how I may use it in the future. There are some Im paying real close attention to at the moment,so can best play the BBEG.
Glad to see someone pick up the GM mantle and give it a go, Thanks!!
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Yes, the use he uses to get to his safehouse. :P Got x-ray vision to find out which building he is in before he uses alternate escape routes?eeeeexcept said cape that he uses is 1/day. ;)
that and he wasted time gulping down a pot of invisibilty.
BUT.
If he quaffed the invisibility potion while inside the safehouse...
The alchemist could see him, regardless of walls.
/logic
The alchemist could see him, regardless of walls.
Not that I doubt you, but what was the Alchemist using to see through walls?
I want to know as I have 1st level Alchemist. lol
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Y'know, I would really hope catching Torch wouldn't just come down to "You have to have a really good initiative roll AND be in the proper place AND have a really good attack roll/he beefs his save AND you do a metric boatload of damage all in the first turn." I can understand a boon being difficult to get, but that does seem a tad ridiculous.
He's an 11th level underworld information broker who has been planning this escape for the whole season at least. It should be unfairly hard to stop him for a unsuspecting party ranging from 3rd to 7th level.
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I loved the end to this scenario.
Ever since the end to Way of the Kirin was so... happy, I've suspected that the conclusion to Rivalry would be very blood soaked and upsetting.
But I REALLY didn't predict that Torch himself would switch allegiances.
My table had a great time role-playing the immediate aftermath. We wanted to send magical messages to Ambrus Valsin, warning what was coming next. I actually love the idea of Grandmaster Torch being the greatest threat the Decemvirate has faced. He has so much information on them! He knows how the Pathfinder Society works, who works for them - all bets are off.
I am really looking forward to coming scenarios where 'Torch interference' becomes an issue.
I would love a scenario where we go back into investigating the incident that led to Torch hating the Decemvirate so much. PCs could talk to witnesses, get some clues into what his ultimate plan is. Until then, I guess it's time to put the Decemvirate into witness protection!
(Oh, and confusion killed two characters in this mission. It was horrifying.)
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Anyone else just want (in character) to say F' the Decemvirate and join Torch as a Non PF, PF agent?
The whole thing seems incredibly railroaded and out of character. It's a terribly disappointing "send off", particularly for those that do not want to be your typical Society lapdogs, or who want to play PFS and not be loyal to the Decemvirate. It also just doesn't flow at all with past representations of Torch, nor the entire point of the Shadow Lodge faction, which is now even more needed, not less. It seems to completely ignore that the Shadow Lodge's main philosophy is that the leadership of the Society, but the Decemvirate and the various VC's and VL's are mostly manipulative, backstabbing individuals that have lost sight of the goals of the society and do not care about it's field agents. Or all of the times (through Faction Traits of Prestige Awards) the Shadow Lodge has organized missions at great personal risk to go into the most dangerous places to retrieve even it's lowliest members when the Decemvirate just ignored them as acceptable loses.
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I feel you, Devil's Advocate. From a roleplay perspective, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of characters would have felt like washing their hands of the whole Society to begin with. It is kinda a slap in the face if you joined the SL truly expecting to make a difference for Agents only to learn you'd been being played for a fool and everything you worked for was a lie.
Dem's the breaks, I guess. I just hope S5 has enough stuff for people who really wanted to play characters like that. A scenario or two actually about assisting other Pathfinders for reasons beyond personal gain would be cool.
That was the outlook my Shadow Lodger had. That she was helping to make sure that things were planned out right before their sent out. Most of the folks have specific reactions to certain folks doing their mission briefs.
Drendle Dreng makes them roll their eyes and sigh but when Osprey shows up the running comment is that his mission will inevitable have us finding a dead pathfinder along the way. Typically one of his friends or associates. One of the other comic geeks in the area picked up on my comment that he's put more friends in the ground than John Constantine.
Typically Osprey shows up.. players IMMEDIATELY spend 20% more on consumables at mission start and start considering what 'face talents/spells' won't be needed.
As for the out of character comments.
Season 0 Torch was.. well kind of a dick. Sending off a minotaur diplomat to find something he wanted without telling the poor guy about what might be in the maze. Or some of his other things. Like the Mantis' Prey where he comes clean FINALLY at being in charge of one facet of the Shadow Lodge.
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I know I was a little disappointed in the finale, but I haven't seen enough of Torch to have a handle on what his character is. So the betrayal by a nebulous ally doesn't feel wrong. Just a bitter end to my favorite faction.
I did manage to catch my home group off guard due to their newness to the society. My wife's reaction was "g!@ d++n it Torch."
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** spoiler omitted **
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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I was very disappointed with Rivalry's End. Having come into PFS in season 3, I knew nothing of previous Shadow Lodge stories and it was advertised as a faction that looks out for the individual Pathfinders and watches what the Decemvirate were doing. That was what my fighter signed up for and now I am left with a rotten taste in my mouth telling me that I have been played all along. Not sure where she goes from here.
It didn't help that I didn't like the scenario at all. My group (playing at low sub-tier)would have been lost without one of the most unusual (and 6th level) PCs I've met yet (spends no money, spends all her prestige on vanities).
Having now read the scenario in order to prep to GM for my local FLGS, I can see that my fighter would have stood little chance in the first two tests and probably not much in the last combat (neither would the rest of our party). We were saved by the unusual PC, again.
I am really hoping that my Kitsune will have a better time on Monday in Way of the Kirin.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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I've only been playing PFS for a couple of years now, so I've mostly seen the Season Three (and later) version of the backstory for Torch and the Shadow Lodge. In fact I created a Shadow Lodge character as character-1, so I've probably subconsciously avoided playing any scenarios that put Torch in too bad a light (especially since quite often the faction missions a SL character ended up with just weren't a good fit).
But, apparently, all those of us who felt that the Shadow Lodge as presented in season 3 was badly needed (to keep an eye on the definitely untrustworthy decemvirate) get thrown under the juggernaut. Strangely enough this doesn't make me want to put much trust in the decemvirate; in fact I'd probably still have more faith in Torch than in any of the other faction leaders. As I'm not into self-serving nationalistic politics (let alone the Sczarni, although at least they're honest about being out for themselves), and have no interest in joining a gang of squeaky-clean good guys, I feel I don't have a good choice for a new faction.
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I was very disappointed with Rivalry's End. Having come into PFS in season 3, I knew nothing of previous Shadow Lodge stories and it was advertised as a faction that looks out for the individual Pathfinders and watches what the Decemvirate were doing. That was what my fighter signed up for and now I am left with a rotten taste in my mouth telling me that I have been played all along. Not sure where she goes from here.
I think that is pretty much how most of the SL characters should feel. We were betrayed and want revenge and it is going to be tough to trust someone again. If you still feel a little lost read through the full conclusion of the scenario. The Decemvirate do lot to help keep the shadow lodge members around. Including that extra SL only bonus you get.
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Thing is, even if Torch does his thing, that doesn't just make the Decemvirate any more desirable or make the SL any less needed or wanted. How many times had Professor X gone away and the X-Men still kept on? No reason this is any different. It just means that a leader of the SL, (one almost no one even knew about for the longest time) is gone (in a very unplublic event that no one else knows about anyway), and now some how the Faction disbands?
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Thing is, even if Torch does his thing, that doesn't just make the Decemvirate any more desirable or make the SL any less needed or wanted. How many times had Professor X gone away and the X-Men still kept on? No reason this is any different. It just means that a leader of the SL, (one almost no one even knew about for the longest time) is gone (in a very unplublic event that no one else knows about anyway), and now some how the Faction disbands?
This is a little bit different. This would be more like he just assassinated Magneto took over the Brotherhood of evil mutants and then thanked the X-men for all the hard work they did as it helped make it possible. Now will the X-men continue to fight? Definitely, but would they want to continue fighting under tha banner of the X-men? Probably not.
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Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
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The problem is that a lot of us build and play characters that we, in some way, empathize with. So when our characters get betrayed, it's hard not to feel that the players have been sold a bill of goods, and offered a gaming environment that proved to be a lie.
Add to that the miscommunication of how we as players could affect the fate of our characters - apparently by the time many of us got round to playing the season 4 scenarios it was too late, as the decision as to which factions got the chop had already been taken some months earlier. This is further exacerbated by the extremely short time-frame there is to play the faction-ending scenarios (especially if you are trying to get a chronicle for a second character in the same faction).
So not only is my Shadow Lodge character dissatisfied with his treatment at the hands of the decemvirate; I, as a player, am far from happy about the way the PFS campaign management has handled the whole situation.
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Have to say the way this faction ends is somewhat disapointing and a bit of a kick in the teeth to a lot of shadow lodge players
I mean first you get to have the joy of knowing that for the last two seasons Youre character has been used and basically living a lie. Then to rub salt in the wound the Decemvirate (The group most shadow lodge members are distrusting off.) then invites them all back like a bunch of mislead children If anything I would think that after this shadow lodge characters would be even more untrusting of the Decevirate or faction leaders.
Not a shadow lodge (Or PFS in general) player but this is my view of the scenario as an outside observer
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I've only been playing PFS for a couple of years now, so I've mostly seen the Season Three (and later) version of the backstory for Torch and the Shadow Lodge. In fact I created a Shadow Lodge character as character-1, so I've probably subconsciously avoided playing any scenarios that put Torch in too bad a light (especially since quite often the faction missions a SL character ended up with just weren't a good fit).But, apparently, all those of us who felt that the Shadow Lodge as presented in season 3 was badly needed (to keep an eye on the definitely untrustworthy decemvirate) get thrown under the juggernaut. Strangely enough this doesn't make me want to put much trust in the decemvirate; in fact I'd probably still have more faith in Torch than in any of the other faction leaders. As I'm not into self-serving nationalistic politics (let alone the Sczarni, although at least they're honest about being out for themselves), and have no interest in joining a gang of squeaky-clean good guys, I feel I don't have a good choice for a new faction.
My SL character just doesn't feel that Torch has betrayed her, let alone that his actions were shocking. The only thing she thought was shocking was that he threw away his faction of loyal Pathfinders, when it would have been easy to keep us with little effort, that and that the scenario keeps telling you that you have been shockingly betrayed by Torch, when he just did exactly what many players at the table anticipated he would if we gave him Ouidda and the names (other than disbanding the faction). Arianrhod didn't think anything else he did was out of character for him--he hates Ouidda, as she undermined him at every turn and put out a Red Mantis hit on him, and of course he wants the Decimivirate names. I completely imagine him slitting her throat, turning to the Shadow Lodge characters, and saying "With these names, we finally have leverage to get the changes we've always wanted. My friends, our new arc in the Year of the Demon is going to be the best thing you've ever seen!" Given Torch's mastery of staying ahead and keeping the advantage, it's a bit surprising that he didn't try anything further to keep his agents in the Society as loyal assets (he still has Aria anyway).
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That's basically what I mean when I say his actions where totally out of character. It makes absolutely no sense, either for the individual or for the entire faction.
I'm also not terribly keen on the way that that final scene with him, from either a mechanics or story sense was handled. A it is unclear if it is both a
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I want to throw my voice in here since I really enjoyed the scenario. I was lucky enough to play it as Paizocon Saturday. We played 3-4 and didn't really have any trouble with the combat (big party though). The clockwork soldiers went down quick in the hall, and we found the swarm task and had alchemists fire at the ready. The Spider went down fast after being pinned behind the desk by our fighter, and my inquisitor cast silence on himself and moved into the room. She gave up pretty quick.
The final encounter was surprising! And the GM did a great job of springing it on us nonchalantly. Torch shifted to the door to taunt us before escaping, but we got him. Great RP potential! My character spent his first 2 actions trying to talk to Torch instead of fighting. He was captured by then though.
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That's basically what I mean when I say his actions where totally out of character. It makes absolutely no sense, either for the individual or for the entire faction.
I'm also not terribly keen on the way that that final scene with him, from either a mechanics or story sense was handled. A it is unclear if it is both a ** spoiler omitted ** This one I do put on the writer as a pretty bad set up.
"You gain a +10 competence bonus on Bluff skill checks to convince others of your innocence. They find it difficult to believe you capable of any wrongdoing."
This is Torch Bluffing during his exchange with Ouidda, to not let on what's been said and that he's about to turn on people. And if the GM rolled a Bluff check, the players would probably be suspicious...so it makes sense to treat it as the average rounded down, a 10.
Ergo, a result of 41 on Bluff.