Our group is just wrapping up Kingmaker, and by far the most powerful characters were the archer and the witch (followed by cavalier). I found many ways of dealing with the archer and cavalier (fickle winds / tight quarters) to keep the fights fun for most, but if the group encountered a solo that was not immune to sleep (ie Slumber Hex in this case), it was a one round fight most of the time. There were a few times where the foe had lots of wisdom and a good save, but by and large, Slumber Hex stood out as being not just powerful but over powering. Also granted that by the later parts of Kingmaker there is a lot of stuff immune to sleep, but when I run my next game I don't want to have to deal with 4+ chapters of witch dominating encounters.
We are organizing for our next game, and the group wants to try Rise of The Runelords (no one has played it). Two things. First, a player has expressed interest in playing a slumber witch. Second, I bought the anniversary edition of RoTRL which I know is the first AP written long before the witch class existed (and even with recent updates, I am assuming does not take witches with slumber hex spcifically into account).
So, suggestions?
I don’t really want to disallow the class (the player is really excited about it). And Slumber Hex should maintain approprate utility, but I am thinking of nerfing it slightly. What have others done? Or am I best leaving it alone?
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Dont ever have single enemy encounters. Seriously never have a solo monster. If the ap has one, and you want the fight to matter, alter it.
Also none of the AP's are going to take the witch's slumber hex into account. They are written for a 'generic' adventuring party that is 15 point buy, that has roughly, a guy who hits stuff, a guy who sort of hits stuff and casts spells, a guy who sort of hits stuff and has skills, and a guy who casts lots of spells.
If your party deviates from that you will have to make adjustments. And you might simply based on how your party does those things.
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My suggestion is to leave it alone and that it isn't overpowering. I really don't mean to sound like a jerk, but look at these boards and you'll see complaints all the time about X, Y, or Z being overpowered and then you'll find that through discussion with other people and even developers coming in to comment that they aren't really OP.
As a GM your job isn't YOU vs YOUR PLAYERS, it's the NPC's/Beasts vs the PC's. So you can do other things rather than nerf a specific class or power to make things interesting.
I like to add in different kinds of terrain, dig through the bestiaries and toss in some other interesting level appropriate creatures (even if they deviate from the AP), I even borrow from 4E and put in 1HP versions of creatures to use as mooks/minions, and I also like to use the environment.
Using different things in your game rather than a by the book approach to an AP can make it much more rewarding and then you don't have to worry about picking on one character or class.
My 2 coppers,
UN
First, sounds like a munchkin player to me. I mean, if it's the same exact group of players, then this guy just watched a slumber witch for umpteen levels and might have even been just as bored/disappointed with ridiculously quick 1-round (no danger) fights as everyone else was.
And now he wants to do that to your next campaign. Why? Does he really think it will be fun? Or does he just want to be the guy who destroys every encounter like the previous player did?
Maybe I'm wrong, but if I were the GM, I would just say that nobody in this campaign plays a clone of one of the PCs from the last campaign. That can be worded however, but I would insist that if someone even plays any class that anyone played in the previous campaign, then the build/abilities must be entirely different - or find something else.
I would not only do this to rule out slumber witch, but also, just to keep the game feeling new and different, rather than being the same old thing, same old group, dealing with a new campaign in the same old way.
If (somehow, though it seems unlikely to me) this player is eager to play a slumber witch because he thinks it will be fresh and new entertaining for him and the group in general, and you want to encourage his ardor for this class/build, then I agree, you might want to nerf the hex. Make it more easily resisted, or have limited applications only to certain creature types, or reduce the frequency that it can be used, or whatever.
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Dont ever have single enemy encounters. Seriously never have a solo monster. If the ap has one, and you want the fight to matter, alter it.
This; I know it's tough to alter a pre-written fight, but it is wise to usually add some minions to a fight. Even if they just act as speedbumps, they draw fire. Single enemy encounters always favor the PCs, witch or no witch, simply because they will have 4 (or more) actions for the enemy's one every round. The occasional single enemy encounter is fine, but accept that in those cases if the PCs are lucky, it will end very quickly (and again, witch or no witch). The extra combatants do not need to be powerful, they just need to be there to help draw fire--and assist the big bad as needed---including wake him up if he succumbs to the hex, and once he's woken up, he can't be hexed again for 24 hours.
As for dealing with slumber, I would not alter the hex itself but just really think about your tactics. Beyond having multi-enemy encounters, this includes doing things like noting:
1. Hex works only within 30 feet. Make sure the big bad is more than 30 feet away at the start of the encounter.
2. Hex works only on one creature within 30 feet, which is one move increment away for a medium or larger creature (and some smaller ones). That means if either the hex fails, and/or the target has a nearby ally, the smart enemy is going to do the tactically sound thing: move 30 feet and engage the witch in melee. Melee is not where witches usually want to find themselves.
This is not about "target the witch randomly." This is about smart enemies doing smart enemy things. If the witch gets close enough to get off the hex, and the enemy realizes, "hey, she just made bob fall asleep! If that happens to me they'll cut my throat while I'm down," it is entirely sensible for them to want to take out that threat. The witch should understand he or she is taking risks when they get that close to melee to cast spells and hexes.
Likewise, if the witch is generally repeatedly successful with the slumber tactic against the same organization of enemies, such that word of his or her skills gets around, the enemies will eventually learn to take out the witch before the witch puts them to sleep. One trick ponies are bad because if the enemy learns their trick, they will make it work against them.
3. As you noted use, enemies where reasonable with decent saves and/or sleep immunity (including elves and half elves), and/or immunity to mind affecting (e.g., undead, constructs).
4. Sometimes don't change anything--the witch should be able to press that win button sometimes just as should any PC get to shine. The trick is just to be sure it's not all the time. :)
Finally, if you really want to consider houseruling it, this is what I'd suggest:
Attack the party with an NPC witch with the slumber hex. A whole coven of them, even. Make it a completely fair fight of the kind the players are generally used to facing, but be smart with tactics and make sure the ability gets used. If events turn as such that the PCs complain about how powerful the slumber hex is, ask them if THEY think it should be house ruled, UNDERSTANDING that it would also apply to their PC witch. Then if they're okay with it, houserule it.
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Undead
Constructs
ElvesAnything else that is immune to mind affecting spells / sleep.
That's a really short list. The actual list of critters is more like this:
Undead
Constructs
Elves
Half-Elves
Ooze
Outsiders
Plants
Behemoth
Elementals
Vermin
Inevitables
Kami
And anything taking any kind of bleed damage (Effectively).
Slumber is potent but it has a LOT of ways to deal with it. As Kolokotroni said, don't use single critter encounters. EVER. Also remember all the effects that break slumber (a standard action from a pet, a single point of damage, a loud noise, etc) and general environmental effects that also work (Extreme heat, rain, thunder).
This is not a game-breaking ability, it's just a game changer.
Odd, somewhat-related question: Does the Slumber hex cause the target to just fall asleep on its feet?
If so, in many (most?) cases, wouldn't that leave a chance that the target will fall over and possibly wake itself up?
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I'd say that whatever your mix of characters, it's helpful to take them into account when running an adventure path or module.
Make some changes, or add some encounters that will challenge your player's particular abilities.
Don't re-write things to the point of thwarting them at every turn, but plan to challenge them.
Slumber is very powerful, but it does have only a 30 foot range, and it doesn't affect creatures who are immune to sleep or mind-affecting effects. It's also less useful against large numbers of creatures, since it only affects a single target. Or creatures which have an advantage of long range attacks or special vision/perception abilities in some environments.
If you have a battle against a bunch of goblins, for example, consider having a reserve second wave, who arrive on the scene if the PCs have too easy a time taking out the encounter (or never arrive, if the original encounter seems sufficient). It's not cheating if the players are enjoying themselves.
Also, consider adding or embellishing encounters to make sure that everyone gets a chance to shine. If there's a trap or a skill challenge that the witch can't help much with, that gives another player a moment in the spotlight.
Low level undead, constructs, elementals, oozes, and plants may provide some encounters that are more challenging. Also vermin (and most swarms) may prove helpful for some encounters.
If you normally run 3 or 4 combats in a play session, I would make sure that you have at least one where slumber doesn't help (he should have other tricks up his sleeve, though), and another where either the terrain set up, distance of the encounter, or number of opponents blunts its influence on the encounter.
You might also consider outlawing Monster feats for PCs, which won't allow the player to take Ability Focus (Slumber Hex). That will at least reduce the save by 2.
Thanks for the input (and no offense is taken Ub3r) Those are all things I am aware of and we are close to being on the same page.
I am trying to avoid a DM vs Players mentality while maintaing challenge during combat. I want to challenge my players, not wipe the floor with them.
I let them do 20 points last game...maybe 15 points is the solution.
Also this player is not a munchkin (that would be the cavalier), this player just really likes playing a witch. Although I have toyed with the idea of forbidding anyone to play the same class they did last time (to keep it new and interesting, as you say).
If I do decide to change the Hex...any suggestions?
Maybe 3+INT Mod times a day?
Only effect cretures of Witch's HD or less?
So for those that have played RoTRLs would your really add mooks to the "X" encounter in book 2. I heard it is pretty deadly by itself. And its a solo. Are you suggesting that I modify it to add support? It is at least immune to slumber hex. So this this more a general question about "never have a solo".
Don't Elves actually sleep in Pathfinder? I remember reading that they did.
Don't Elves actually sleep in Pathfinder? I remember reading that they did.
They do, but they are still immune to magical effects that cause sleep.
Huh, that's nifty.
Have the Endless Dream take an interest in the Slumber Party Witch. That could be a cool side plot.
That hex is annoying to some GM's but the one you will hate is evil eye.
Back to the slumber hex it is not really that bad, once you get past low levels. See the spoiler below.
That hex requires the witch to be within 30 feet, and they only get one attempt per creature per 24 hours so finding ways to get past the front line or focusing on the "troublemaker" are always options.
In RotRL it has more lasting power because you are dealing with giants who have not so good saves.
As for modifying RotRL it depends on your group, as does any AP. I have to modify it because my group is a well oiled killing machine. Book 2 was pretty easy except for certain combats, and even then I had to make them more difficult.
I also don't do solo boss encounters anymore, even if it means dropping the CR of the boss to add in minions. I pretty leave non-boss fights as they are. I don't care much of players run through minions, but i do occasionally help minions out especially if a boss fight is coming up.
If your players are good at optimizing the 15 point buy won't do a whole lot, but make them figure out another way to maintain the same power level.
If he drops the witch and comes back with a wizard or sorcerer things may get worse, but because they may be more subtle you may not not notice. "Flashy" things like "SoD's" tend to get more attention than other tactics.
If you do end up modifying the hex I would suggest allowing the player to play something else since he took the class with the assumption of it not being changed.
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Bad guys waking bad guys up is a constant thwarter to my witches who like slumber. Being able to use it only once every 24 hours (maybe twice if they have Accursed Hex) is where a lot of weaker bad guys in an encounter and good tactics come into play.
Think of it like hold person, or blindness/deafness (which don't have 30ft ranges). It's not the only ability out there that can screw a lone bad guy with a failed save.
Yay Uber! Finally, someone who gets it! Now as far as counterbalancing any ability/class/etc that seems to be "overpowered", my DM has a simple fix. If something is such a good idea, it will catch on, which means our group eventually starts facing enemies using our "uber" tactics, gear, whatever. Its logical and makes sense, and it also is somewhat of a deterrent to so called power gaming in our group.
Remember minions add to the CL. As a rule:
1 Creature CR+0
2 Creatures CR+2
3 Creatures CR+3
4 Creatures CR +4
and so on.
So drop the level of the NPC by 2-3 levels, and increase the number of NPCs by 1-2. Easy peasy!
I AM NOT A FAN OF THE FOLLOWING, BUT I HAVE SEEN IT USED AD NAUSEUM:
Roll saves behind a screen. If it is a round 1 anti climactic slumber gets cast, your secret roll counters. Just remember to reciprocate. If you deliberately stuff a PC action, be prepared to deliberately stuff an NPCs roll later on.
Finally, I recommend you take a look at this rather fun post (Credit to Stream of the Sky)
Player: Ok, so no way that warrior guy can hurt me much, I want to ignore him and focus completely on the rogue so he can't sneak attack me. You told me that's acceptable, right?
DM: Alright, if you insist. It's really not a good idea to do that...
Player: Surely nowhere near as bad as getting sneak attacked constantly.
DM: As you turn your back to the village guard, he takes careful aim and slits your throat with his short sword. *rolls crit damage* Fort save to avoid instant death, please.
Player: ....What?!!!
DM: You're letting him attack you at his leisure, what did you expect? He can do a tiger claw grab to your groin and see what souveniers he can take home, if you prefer.
Player: No....I'd rather choose option c) none of the above...
DM: Ooh! I know! He'll grab you, locking both his arms under your armpits, hands on your shoulders, to keep your motion nice and restricted.
Player: If he grapples me, the Rogue can sneak attack anyway!
DM: That is true...
Player: No way! I fight him off! *rolls grapple check*
DM: *rolls* Yeah, your 38 beats his...7. You easily manage to throw him off of you. *rolls* As you do so, the opportunistic Rogue attacks your weak spot for massive damage!
Player: Wait, what? he can't sneak attack me, I'm completely focused on him!
DM: How are you both ignoring the other guy AND throwing him off of you? The rogue's just taking advantage of your momentary lapse of guard. That's...what sneak attack IS.
Player: This isn't what I had in mind when I suggested the houserule...
DM: Oh, then what? You wanted some minor penalty to completely deny the rogue his primary class ability?
Player: It's not that bad... The rogue can still try to catch me flatfooted. Granted, that's hard to do and often requires set up rounds after combat's begun, but it's not like I'm completely taking away his main ability. Besides, he's still high level, with his magic items and skills and such.
DM: You know what...you're absolutely right. I had my doubts, but you've convinced me it's not as bad as I thought. I've seen the light, thank you. You can feel free to ignore the other guy. He'll be invisible to you, but not like he can do much to you anyway, so whatever.
Player: Halleluyah!
DM: Amen! Thank you, I never looked at it like that before. Ok, you've gone. Rogue's turn. He 5 ft steps back, pulls out a scroll, and uses his skill with magic items to cast it.
Player: Hmm, what'd he cast?
DM: You don't have spellcraft, you wouldn't know.
Player: Yeah, but I'm just curious. Can't you tell me? I wont metagame, I just want to know.
DM: Ok. It's a spell called "Pen is mightier than the sword."
Player: ...what's that?
DM: It's a spell i just made up now, inspired by your superior reasoning.
Player: ....
DM: It's a 20 ft radius emanation from the caster. Within the emanation, creatures, including the caster, lose access to all of their feats.
Player: That's not fair! I'm a Fighter! Feats are my main class feature!
DM: But you're still high level. You've got a full BAB, and I'd hope a backup ranged weapon, not to mention all your magic gear and hit points. You're not completely gimped....
Player: But...but...my power attack! My weapon suprememacy! My attacks are almost nothing without them!
DM: Come on now. You still have a giant sword. You can always hang back at range and take shots with your bow. You're about as well off as the Rogue is without reliable sneak attack. Fear the d4 +2 damage!
Player: ...Screw it. I spend the first of my 4 iterative attacks to kill the stupid henchman. Full power attack. *rolls* 35 to hit, 46 damage.
DM: He dies! Congratulations, the Rogue can no longer flank you now!
If you like, the entirety can be found here:Linked goodness
Seriously, start on Page 1, read the whole thing.
A BBEG should make his save about 1/2 the time. Once he does, he's immune. With a couple of mooks, one can guard him while the other wakes him
Don't change the rules. Mind you, giving a BBEG a small + to his saves isn't wrong. Adding a few mooks is fine also.
and it's Ok for the Witch to one shot the BBEG once in a while, just like a tank with a X3 crit or a wizard with Hold Person.
But if you don't care for these ideas. how about this? "Bob, D&D is a Game, and Games should be fun for everyone, including the DM. Slumber hexes are kinda ruining my fun. Howsa about playing something else, OK?" In other words, talk to him like an adult.
Although I have toyed with the idea of forbidding anyone to play the same class they did last time (to keep it new and interesting, as you say).
I think that's a great rule. I know that some players have strong preferences about what kind of characters they play, but the exact same class for two adventure paths in a row is getting silly.
If I do decide to change the Hex...any suggestions?
Maybe 3+INT Mod times a day?
Only effect cretures of Witch's HD or less?
I strongly suggest that you adjust the adventure rather than the hex.
You said that your stronger characters were an archer, a witch, and a cavalier. That's three characters already. How many do you have?
Real simple give all your monsters an additional 10HP and then give them all bleed 1 ;) why because they're masochists who wear pain devices that bleed them during combat ;)
Thanks for the input (and no offense is taken Ub3r) Those are all things I am aware of and we are close to being on the same page.
I am trying to avoid a DM vs Players mentality while maintaing challenge during combat. I want to challenge my players, not wipe the floor with them.
I let them do 20 points last game...maybe 15 points is the solution.
Also this player is not a munchkin (that would be the cavalier), this player just really likes playing a witch. Although I have toyed with the idea of forbidding anyone to play the same class they did last time (to keep it new and interesting, as you say).
If I do decide to change the Hex...any suggestions?
Maybe 3+INT Mod times a day?
Only effect cretures of Witch's HD or less?
If you have an issue with Slumber why not just BAN slumber hex. Its not like you cant make a perfectly sound Witch without Slumber Hex. If you want give him something else to compensate.I like the idea of a hex that works like the Eldritch blast from the Warlock class in 3.5. Ranged touch 1d6 every 2 Witch levels. That way the witch can blast badies, feel cool, and he isnt one shotting your encounters.
Otherwise take the advice others have said. You can take his toy away most fights by using several tactics... but do you really win in that situation. You just have a frustrated player at that point. I personally dislike most Save or suck one trick ponies (Slumber Witches, Trip/Graple Monk builds, ect). They go one of two ways. Either it works and completely rapes an entire encounter... or doesn't and the character is a waste of space.
Ban it. Seriously if you don't want/have the time etc. to change the AP just ban it.
I had a witch PC when i run the RotRL and the slumber hex, the agony hex and the ice tomb hex nearly ruined the game, i know that there are counters to each of them but the reason i buy the APs is that i can't do most of the work myself.
Yes i know that evil eye+misfortune+familiar with wand of ill omen is a far better combination but i don't have a problem with that because it doesn't spoil the sport.
So know for my Shattered Star game i banned both the witch class (and the hexcrafter magus for good measure) and any dedicated archer.
PS. I play in a Jade Regent game where another player plays a witch and it has already (now at book 3) started ruining my fun.
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Although I have toyed with the idea of forbidding anyone to play the same class they did last time (to keep it new and interesting, as you say).I think that's a great rule. I know that some players have strong preferences about what kind of characters they play, but the exact same class for two adventure paths in a row is getting silly.
That is an opinion, just like some would think forcing players out of a certain class might be silly.
That is an opinion, just like some would think forcing players out of a certain class might be silly.Although I have toyed with the idea of forbidding anyone to play the same class they did last time (to keep it new and interesting, as you say).I think that's a great rule. I know that some players have strong preferences about what kind of characters they play, but the exact same class for two adventure paths in a row is getting silly.
I had a friend that I used to game with and all of his characters, save one, were elven mage/thieves. Once he played a ranger.
It's just what he liked to play. So, according to you, he was being "silly" even though that was simply the only type of character he wanted to play.
I have seen other people over the years with similar tastes. I knew a guy who pretty much every charcter he played, ever, was a Paladin. I've known people that basiclay only play Wizards.
/shrug
To each their own.
I have seen people like that, i don't think that there is anything wrong in the behaviour itself, but it can cause issues with the group if he one player wants to play the same role in the party all the time and refuses to play anything else because it kinda limits the other player's options as well.
The best modification I've been able to think of is capping slumber's HD in step with the character's levels in witch. It keeps it relevant while not being overpowered. You can't, at level 1, slumber a pit fiend, he roll a 1, and suddenly you're level 15. You gotta wait till you're 20 if you want to slumber a pit fiend. :)
Without going into spoilers, the Slumber witch will be less valuable in RoTRL than in Kingmaker.
Will the witch star at times? Yes. Will they have many, many critical times throughout the AP where it doesn't work.
Yup.
I have run all of Kingmaker and i remember THREE times (at book 3+) where the slumber hex couldn't be used on an important enemy, can you remind me (in spoiler of course) where you can't use the slumber hex on important enemies?
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Let's take a moment to look at slumber
"A witch can cause a creature within 30 feet to fall into a deep, magical sleep, as per the spell sleep. The creature receives a Will save to negate the effect. If the save fails, the creature falls asleep for a number of rounds equal to the witch's level. This hex can affect a creature of any HD. The creature will not wake due to noise or light, but others can rouse it with a standard action. This hex ends immediately if the creature takes damage. Whether or not the save is successful, a creature cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day."
If you are a witch within 30 feet of the BBEG and it fails, the BBEG will hurt you.
A lot.
And unless they are metagaming, they may or may not know if the thing is immune to sleep or not...
It is very, very useful. But it has it's weaknesses and limits, even beyond the limits of the sleep spell which is medium range and area.
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I have run all of Kingmaker and i remember THREE times (at book 3+) where the slumber hex couldn't be used on an important enemy, can you remind me (in spoiler of course) where you can't use the slumber hex on important enemies?Without going into spoilers, the Slumber witch will be less valuable in RoTRL than in Kingmaker.
Will the witch star at times? Yes. Will they have many, many critical times throughout the AP where it doesn't work.
Yup.
Book by book, First book the gobs attack in groups, so taking a single goblin out with sleep is the same as killing one, BBEG is a cleric with high will save.
Second book is a ton of undead (immune to sleep) followed by what I believe was an elf cleric (immune to sleep) and a lamia matriarch who I is immune to mind effecting.
Book 3 you do better with saves with Ogres and Giants, but if you fail you are 30 feet from an ogre or a giant. The BBEGs are a wizard (good will saves) and a Lamia Matriarch (immune)
Book 4 is Giants again, but also more Lamia matriarchs, a dragon (immune to sleep), an undead monk and a BBEG wizard (high will, may also be immune, not sure).
Book 5 is mostly wizards
Book 6 is undead, Rune Giants with ridiculous will saves, Dragons and Uber Wizards.
So IMHO RoTRL isn't all that favorable to a slumber witch.
I have run all of Kingmaker and i remember THREE times (at book 3+) where the slumber hex couldn't be used on an important enemy, can you remind me (in spoiler of course) where you can't use the slumber hex on important enemies?Without going into spoilers, the Slumber witch will be less valuable in RoTRL than in Kingmaker.
Will the witch star at times? Yes. Will they have many, many critical times throughout the AP where it doesn't work.
Yup.
** spoiler omitted **
So IMHO RoTRL isn't all that favorable to a slumber witch.
At book 3 the lamia matriarch here isn't an important opponent, the dragon is half a challenge and the BBEG saves aren't high enough, also the 30 feet away from an ogre isn't that bad becuase most of the times the rooms aren't that big and you can be relatively safe.
At book 4 i will give you the mummy monk and maybe the dragon (the first one) but not much else, the BBEG (again not high enough saves) isn't immune any more (was in the original) and the lamia matriarchs are a joke at this level.
At book 5 there are actually 2 important enemies that are immune, the white dragon and the lich. Oh and the wizards' saves aren't high enough.
At book 6, the rune giants offer some challenge but again not good enough, the dragon is a challenge and there is one uber wizard, who isn't immune in PF but was in 3.5 (the change in mind blank), the other wizard has such a crap built that he's useless, there is the fighter who is immune though.
So no i don't see it as particularly troublesome for RotRL, especially when you consider that a witch who tries to specialize in SoS hexes is going to have at least one of the other 2 SoS hexes and the accursed and split hex feats.
And that's why in my game the witch class ended up being a spoilsport.
To those suggesting "Ban it":
I don't want to, because I specifically don't want to take away one of the players favorite aspect of the Witch class. But at the same time I was looking for ways of limiting it (because unlike a poster above my PC does not hold it back for other players to shine, he considers it the main thing his witch does...In the Kingmaker game I can count on ONE hand the times he has cast a SPELL (outside of self buffs). His turn is almost always Slumber or Misfortune (if creature is immune to slumber).
I don't have problems with it in Kingmaker at their current level (14), it was mainly an issue from 1-10 and since I was starting a new game (RoTRL) I was looking for different ways to spin it (or deal with it), as the player has said he wants to play a witch again (which I will be trying to talk him out of, if for no other reason than I want the game to feel different...but if he stands firm I guess see no reason to not allow it for the many reasons people have listed above.) I allowed 20 point buys for Kingmaker, I think a 15 point buy will also fix many of my problems also. I think I see the problem was the resources I gave the party (including attribute points) and not the power itself (which when examined actually seems balanced (powerful yes, but not OP). The problem is more the DM (me) than the actual slumber hex. If my NPCs have a chance to save (like 50%ish) than the Hex is actually not that bad.
ok...I'm convinced. I will allow the hex unmodified but plan to adjust my encounters instead. Few (maybe no?) solos. I will trust that RoTRL will be a VERY different game than Kingmaker. And I will go with 15 point buy this time.
@Kildaere: Another suggestion, talk to the witch's player before you start the game. Let him know your concerns. Let him know that you're not nerfing or banning Slumber, but that you also want to make sure it doesn't become an "I win!" button in this campaign.
Finally, ask that if it starts becoming an issue, would he be willing to work with you to come up with a fair compromise\limitation on the ability.
If you don't want to ban it, and you want to allow others to have fun with it, I suggest the following script:
GM: I like the witch, and I think the concept works well with the Rise of the Runelords AP. My only real problem is that the Slumber Hex is so . . . wow. I mean you can potentially shut down entire encounters especially when there is just one BBEG.
Player: You know, a dervish dancing magus channeling his shocking grasp through a scimitar has unbelievable chance to also shut down an enemy instantly... so does Color Spray, etc.
GM: Yes, but they have finite casts per day. You can potentially use Slumber infinite times per day. So what I am proposing is a simple gentleman's agreement. You use your abilities in a way that contributes well and allows everyone to have fun, and I won't ban the class for this AP.
Player: But shutting down enemies in one shot is what I think is fun.
GM: Most players do. I just want every player to have that opportunity. The Heavens Oracle with his Awesome Display Color Spray should have the chance, the crit focused Magus should have his chance, and the Summoner/God Wizard should have their chance to use all those summons and CC spells as well. Rumor has it our Half-Elf Synthesist also wants to occasionally engage in Melee. I just don't want to let your fun strip all of them of their fun.
Player: That actually makes a lot of sense. I will try to focus on my other abilities, and use Slumber to turn the tide when things look bad. Every once in a while I will throw it at a boss just for fun, but not every time. I want to let the others have their time in the spotlight as well.
GM: So we are agreed, you can do the witch, and I will not ban the class based on your ability to use common sense and self restraint.
Player: Sounds good to me!
To those suggesting "Ban it":
I don't want to, because I specifically don't want to take away one of the players favorite aspect of the Witch class. But at the same time I was looking for ways of limiting it (because unlike a poster above my PC does not hold it back for other players to shine, he considers it the main thing his witch does...In the Kingmaker game I can count on ONE hand the times he has cast a SPELL (outside of self buffs). His turn is almost always Slumber or Misfortune (if creature is immune to slumber).
I don't have problems with it in Kingmaker at their current level (14), it was mainly an issue from 1-10 and since I was starting a new game (RoTRL) I was looking for different ways to spin it (or deal with it), as the player has said he wants to play a witch again (which I will be trying to talk him out of, if for no other reason than I want the game to feel different...but if he stands firm I guess see no reason to not allow it for the many reasons people have listed above.) I allowed 20 point buys for Kingmaker, I think a 15 point buy will also fix many of my problems also. I think I see the problem was the resources I gave the party (including attribute points) and not the power itself (which when examined actually seems balanced (powerful yes, but not OP). The problem is more the DM (me) than the actual slumber hex. If my NPCs have a chance to save (like 50%ish) than the Hex is actually not that bad.
ok...I'm convinced. I will allow the hex unmodified but plan to adjust my encounters instead. Few (maybe no?) solos. I will trust that RoTRL will be a VERY different game than Kingmaker. And I will go with 15 point buy this time.
First of all giving 15 point buy instead of 20 will fix some problems, not all.
To the slumber hex, IF(and that's a big one) and when (again not always) the NPCs have 50%-ish chance to save might seem good but in the case of the slumber hex it isn't, because what the slumber hex, and the other two SoS hexes, do is that give the witch one (or more) SoS spell at their heighest spell level at every encounter at every enemy.That's why i think that it should be banned, not because it's too powerfull (i don't believe that) but because a)it spoils the fun and b)hexes in general are very hard to counter (as opposed to spells).
Give the boss giant Iron Will and Improved Iron Will. With a +2 bonus and a reroll, there's a good chance they'll make the save, rendering them immune. Protection from Blah also grants a bonus and a reroll.
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I have run all of Kingmaker and i remember THREE times (at book 3+) where the slumber hex couldn't be used on an important enemy, can you remind me (in spoiler of course) where you can't use the slumber hex on important enemies?Without going into spoilers, the Slumber witch will be less valuable in RoTRL than in Kingmaker.
Will the witch star at times? Yes. Will they have many, many critical times throughout the AP where it doesn't work.
Yup.
** spoiler omitted **
So IMHO RoTRL isn't all that favorable to a slumber witch.
** spoiler omitted **
So no i don't see it as particularly troublesome for RotRL, especially when you consider that a witch who tries to specialize in SoS hexes is going to have at least one of the other 2 SoS hexes and the accursed and split hex feats.
And that's why in my game the witch class ended up being a spoilsport.
I think you are overlooking the 30 feet single target issue.