Optimizing Black Tentacles - PFS


Advice


Hey all,

So I just got my PFS Bloatmage to lvl 9 and I am contemplating taking spell specialization. He is a foresight wizard but specializes in conjuration spells. I already have spell focus (conjuration), varisian tattoo (conjuration), and bloatmage initiate (conjuration).

So the question becomes: what conjuration spell benefits well from caster level bumps and allows me to take full advantage of my prescience rolls. The best answer I could find is - Black tentacles. Now the big issue is that black tentacles does not scale well against monster/npc CMD. Are the available CL bumps enough to bring Black tentacles back into play at higher levels?

Right now I have a +2 CL and it would be +4 if I took spell specialization. There is also the possibility of playing this character to lvl 15 and taking spell perfection. This would double all my CL bumps giving me a +8 CL on Black Tentacles and allow me to quicken it for free.

So to sum it up:
1) Do you know of any other ways to cheaply bump CL?
2) Are there enough CL bumps to make Black tentacles work against higher CMD monsters?


Black Tentacles is a great spell, but it does suffer from a couple of problems that get worse at high levels. High CMD is one, and flight the other. I guess what I'm trying to say is, I wouldn't take Spell Perfection in Black Tentacles. Spell specialization is a good investment, because, unlike Spell Perfection you can always switch the specialized spell.


Flying:
Yes, flying would negate this spell entirely. However, a lot of PFS is in doors and BT should grab anything between the ground and 20ft up.

High CMD:
This is the real issue. CMD's scale ridiculously and BT does not. CR9 monsters have a CMD between 27 and 36ish. Now two things are in my advantage. 1) PFS is more humanoid than monster based and thus CMDs will be lower (ignoring the occasional monk). 2) I have prescience which lets me roll twice and take the better of the 2 rolls. This will skew my grapple checks a little in my favor.

The issue will still be grappling stuff at the higher levels. With spell perfection at lvl 15 my BT caster level would be a 23 giving me a CMB of +28. This still leaves me with only a 50% chance on the low end of CR15 monsters and fishing for 20's on the high end. Not too mention the fact that a CMD of 38 will be pretty easy to escape from.


Mmm, while the tentacles say the burrow up from the floor to reach any creature in the area, they don't specify the area has to even be touching the floor. Strictly speaking.

That said, it's too bad all of the CMD targeting spells are pretty much terrible.


Quote:
Mmm, while the tentacles say the burrow up from the floor to reach any creature in the area, they don't specify the area has to even be touching the floor. Strictly speaking.

A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.


Pizza Lord wrote:
Quote:
Mmm, while the tentacles say the burrow up from the floor to reach any creature in the area, they don't specify the area has to even be touching the floor. Strictly speaking.
A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.

You miss my point.

Quote:
This spell causes a field of rubbery black tentacles to appear, burrowing up from the floor and reaching for any creature in the area.

If you have it target something in the air, the tentacles still come from the ground. By the definition of the spell, they ALWAYS come from the ground. One could easily read that as an exemption of some of the usual targeting rules since it is explicitly spelled out in the spell text.

Sort of like if a spell had the following text:
Area: 20' spread centered on the ground
Description: Points of light streak out from the sky and beyond the horizon to strike all creatures in the designation area.

There'd be an effect of the spell there even outside of its listed range, and certainly outside of the area of effect. However, this would be visual but not impede or effect creatures in any way. In the case of Black Tentacles, the text would indicate that tentacles always form on, and are therefore supported by, the ground.

I'm not saying this doesn't seem really odd, but that's what the spell says.


Too bad extend spell doesn't make the tentacles longer.

*comedic drumroll*

Maybe a little sirocco action might help out getting things down to the Tentacles, but I think that's trying to hard at that point.

Black Tentacles is a good spell for large groups of enemies, even as-is. While you won't catch everyone, any you do catch makes the spell worth casting.

More importantly unlike a spell that functions similarly (catch some but not necessarily all) such as Confusion, Black Tentacles persists for multiple rounds, creating a badzone that even if the enemies are going to easily move through it statistically they're still likely going to try to avoid it when possible.

Like all CMD spells, Black Tentacles is going to shine a lot more in NPC heavy campaigns (As opposed to monster heavy.) Spell Specialization would be a no brainer in that situation because yes, it's one of the few spells that really benefits from the bonus caster levels.

You should also consider Mad Monkeys. Disarm and Steal aren't at all as good as Grapple, but even if they fail at the CMB they'll still have a chance at deafening the targets (Not likely but it's there) and they will always deal damage. Not to mention they can be moved around which makes it slightly more useful against a BBEG. Note that Steal can take magic items equipped on the enemy.

Still, its combat maneuvers are not very useful against actual monsters, moreso than Black Tentacles, but I think they're slightly more versatile. Probably the biggest drawback of the Monkeys is that they can be pretty easily killed unlike the invincible tentacles. But I dunno, I also have a particular fondness for Mad Monkeys.

Another option is to just take Summon Monster and switch it out for the next spell level as you level up and focus on taking advantage of Greater Spell Specialization for the spontaneous cast later on. That said, you could easily go with Mad Monkeys or Black Tentacles NOW and then switch to Summon Monster when you get another feat to spend on Greater Spell Specialization. That's one of the wonderful things about that feat is that it's not a commitment for endgame.


I agree with you that these spells are much better in an NPC centric campaign. Hey, PFS is just that! :)

I love me some Mad Monkeys as an anti-caster spell. Constant damage, distraction, and stealing all in 1 spell. Every now and then a GM will get all high and mighty by giving their BBEG wizard freedom of movement. I then introduce them to Mad Monkeys and make them wish they had purchased 10 spell component pouches. I also find Mad Monkeys to be a better answer than dispel for removing a pesky magic item. Though every once in a while I want to remove a ring and the GM gives me that look that says "I'm giving the target a +10 bonus."

P.S. Yes....all of my material component casters have a backup and a backup for their backup. I am paranoid and rightfully so.

Sczarni

Maybe you should search for a spell that actively reduces their chances of escaping from Black Tentacles, preferably AoE spell.

Dark Archive

A spell that makes them prone without a save maybe.


Malag wrote:
Maybe you should search for a spell that actively reduces their chances of escaping from Black Tentacles, preferably AoE spell.

Solid fog (or acid fog) help this. Every square of movement cost at least 4, making it very hard to leave the zone, which mean more turns trying to grab.


If you are considering focusing on Black Tentacles you may want to consider the feat False Focus and then use the Alchemy Power Component rules from Adventure's Armory if that is PFS valid. It would let you reroll your Black Tentacles against two creatures per casting, though it's ambiguous if that's per round or per spell.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

You may want to take a look at Ice Spears. I'm not sure if it is PFS legal, though.


chaoseffect wrote:
If you are considering focusing on Black Tentacles you may want to consider the feat False Focus and then use the Alchemy Power Component rules from Adventure's Armory if that is PFS valid. It would let you reroll your Black Tentacles against two creatures per casting, though it's ambiguous if that's per round or per spell.

That's interesting. I find it odd that you make one roll for all creatures and then get to reroll vs 1-2 of those creatures. While I like the idea, I benefit from lucky character choices. My wizard is a foresight wizard and as such has 12 prescience rolls per day. So when I really need it, I can potentially reroll vs all creatures for the duration of the spell.

My current idea is to follow BT with a glitterdust. At minimum it drops their CMD by 2 and at max it drops it 2+Dex mod.


To clarify, Tangle Foot Bags are 50 gold per and False Focus can only cover materials up to 100 gold, hence the 2 creature limit I mentioned (unless you wanted to actually carry around Tangle Foot Bags that are consumed in the casting). Prescience has you covered though as you said.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

So I assume that Ice Spears was a no-go? ^^

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