What do you do when it's not your turn in Pathfinder?


Advice


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So after DMing Pathfinder, 3.5 and 3.0 over the last decade or so, I've come to think that my next big challenge is to improve the 'negative space' in my games.

What I mean by this is that too much of the time spent by players between "their" turns is dissolving into distractions, non-game related muddle, and energy-sucking behavior.

I'm not blaming my players. The truth is that I haven't found a great way to "involve" them when they're not actively rolling dice or attacking or defending or role-playing.

I've created a kind of binary on-off switch in my games. It's either 'your turn' or you're not really playing - you're on the sidelines.

Honestly, I'm not sure what the answer here is. But here are some ideas I'm playing with.

One thing is to encourage players to be better audience members. When it's not your turn, enjoy the show - don't look for other entertainment outside the game.

Another suggestion is for players to do better prep between turns. You know you're up soon, so dig in and really think about the situation and what you can do, how your spells will work, etc.

I can also do better as a DM to share around the interaction with the world when it's 'my turn.' Try to involve as many PCs as I can when the NPCs are doing their thing.

But maybe there are other good ideas out there?

My goal here isn't to eliminate out-of-game distractions. Joking and side-chatter is fine up to a point.

But the truth is that even with a small four-person player group, it'll only be your turn about 20 percent of the time.

If we can improve and deepen the other 80 percent of the table experience for players, that could really transform game night.

So - mostly this is a bid for fresh ideas. How do you, as a player, improve your fun when it's not your turn?

And as DM, what do you do to make sure that your players are as engaged as possible in the session even when you're interacting with someone else's PC?

--Marsh

Scarab Sages

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Just because it's not your turn doesn't mean you aren't there. Talking is a free action and can be done off turn. It is rewarding to players to pay attention to what is going on off turn because they cam make Opportunity attacks off-turn and make tactical input off turn.

But if your players aren't staying focused during combat, then maybe you need to scale back combat. It's easier to have group input in a social or non-combat situation as everything isn't rigidly divided into turns.


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You should be watching the encounter and plotting your actions for the following round.


First, great topic.

In combat, my goal, when it's not my turn, is to make my turn go as fast as possible.

Plan out my next turn and make sure I'm familiar with the rules that will apply to me.

If I'm playing a character with more than 1 or 2 attacks, I pre-roll dice. Specifically, I roll the d20s for each attack, write down the results, and roll the damage for each attack and write it next to the attack roll. When it comes to be my turn, I go through the attacks from low to high, asking if it hits, and then add up the resulting numbers.

If I'm doing a fireball, I will pre-roll the fireball dice, etc.

The downside of this is that if I was a cheater, it would make it easier to cheat. The upside, however, is that some of the longest turns in the game (multiple attacks from a TWFer, eidolon, etc) take about 12 seconds.

-------

There's also a question of what to do when it's not your "turn" out of combat...because you are uninvolved in whatever the group is doing.

Short answer: DON'T BE UNINVOLVED. If it's a scouting party and you suck at stealth, stay close with a message or status spell. A lot of the fun in DnD is in figuring out how to overcome obstacles you're not naturally good at.

-------

...I realize that these approaches are not so much filling in the not-your-turn time as trying to minimize it. But they're what I have. Looking forward to other people's ideas.

-Cross


I pay attention b/c there is nothing worse for a GM than having to explain the same thing 4 times (One of my players never pays attention, when I ask him what he's doing he looks up and says, "what's going on? what do I see?" B/c, you know, I love to repeat myself). Let someone GM a game or two and they will start paying a lot more attention b/c they know how annoying it is when players don't.

If I think I'll cast a particular spell I'll look it up to make sure I'm not forgetting anything I need to know, etc. Doing productive things to speed up my turn and all that.

As Crosswind mentioned, pre-rolling dice can speed things along, but I know lots of GMs that don't allow that kind of thing (suspecting foul play!), but it can make everything go faster.


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I believe in staying active and engaged, too, so when it is not my turn I throw Cheetos at the person whose turn it is, in order to simulate the distractions of combat.

Also, I play "footsie" under the table with the DM, to curry favor. ^_+


When it's not my turn I'm watching the rest of the turns and planning what I will do in what order when my turn comes up.


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1) Grab another cup of coffee :-)
2) Prepare my character for his next move
3) prepare my cohort for her move.
4) Help out by moving counters and figures for the DM.
5) Listen to any developping hook (either tactical or storyline)


A good player with a solid attention span should not need you to lead them down the path of paying attention off turn. There are always opportunities to roleplay, make suggestions, if they are the type of party that works together they can discuss tactics. etc...

That being said if the style of your game has actively contributed to everyone working in silos so to speak there are a few things you can do to perk up their ears and get them more invested again when the dice arent in their hands.

The first is...give them the chance to pick up the dice off turn more often. Maybe have a few baddies provoke AOO's even when tactically speaking they wouldnt. But only if the players notice the chance is there. Do it a few times, but never mention it....if they alert and involved they get to take their swing. If they are checking their email, they miss out.

Another way is to really play up tactics. If a PC who isnt currently at the top of the intiative tracker makes a quick roll off turn for knowledge on a monster and shouts out a monsters weakness really encourage that sort of behavior...mechanically if possible. A extra plus one to hit doesnt seem like much, but for a couple of seconds of participation it can make somebody feel engaged when they arent swinging and slinging.

Lastly award in combat RP...If you have a character point system, a free point for RPing your anger at a friend getting layed low in the round preceeding you activating Rage is a nice time to give out a free one....

Those just a few thoughts I could toss out, doubtless there are many more.

Liberty's Edge

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Captain Marsh wrote:
One thing is to encourage players to be better audience members. When it's not your turn, enjoy the show - don't look for other entertainment outside the game.

When I GM I make sure that a certain bar is set. The players who are ready to go when their initiative comes up get the benefit of the doubt during rulings. I also respond to said actions with equal enthusiasm.

If a turn comes up and someone doesn’t know what to do I suggest “aiding another” if they think they have nothing to offer, I then ask for an action in 10 seconds, then I automatically delay them in combat. This happens a few times and then it doesn’t happen again.
When rolling Initiative for monsters I try to make sure there are at least 2 or 3 different times they get their turn so the initiative is a little mixed up. If there’s skeletons, zombies, a boss and a henchman, they all go on their own turn.

If it’s a city situation or just role-playing I do quick cut scenes between players and their NPC’s, switching back and forth sometimes at random so you’ll never know when you’re up again. Conversations rarely last longer than a minute or two before switching. Roleplaying the NPCs using a good voice can draw attention to the encounter even if you’re not the one interacting.

When I play (which is nowhere near as often), I try to show good manners and set an example. I scan over my feats, skills, equipment or spells. Is there something I have that’s not used often that can be used here? I watch the combat so I know where everyone is. I listen in so if another player has a question I can help them look up a rule or remind them how something works. I collect tiles or minis that have already been used and hand them to the GM to keep the table clear.


These are great. And I do agree that one of the key things Players can do is keep their turns tight and focused.

I don't think I've done enough as a DM to re-enforce the idea that if you're going to throw a spell and you've had eight minutes to prep for your turn, you darn well better know what that spell does...

I do think I've contributed to silo'ing of PC actions. I'll work on trying to get more interaction, teamwork going. It's a great idea.

--Marsh


As a GM, if you up your theatrics a bit, that can help.

Players zone out of it's just "And orc 3 hits for 7..."

Unique names for enemy NPCs, short but creative descriptions of attacks, GM body language; these things can make a huge difference.


D_GENNEXT wrote:
You should be watching the encounter and plotting your actions for the following round.

This.

There is nothing more frustrating when running for a large group than to have to wait five minutes when it is somebody's turn for them to decide what they are doing when they just had half an hour while everyone else was acting.


To be fair, some classes had a harder time evaluating a changing battlefield than others. Battlefield control wizards can often have to change their plan right up until the last second.


Evil Lincoln wrote:
To be fair, some classes had a harder time evaluating a changing battlefield than others. Battlefield control wizards can often have to change their plan right up until the last second.

While this is true; anyone that regularly plays should be plotting several options for their spells to cast. I know you cannot plan for every possible situation, but in most encounters the choices are pretty finite.


Yeah, I just choose to be a little more lenient with wizard decision paralysis. It's not like the player wasn't paying attention, it's that the variables change with every person's turn.

Grand Lodge

I tell the one or two jerk-offs who text or tweet or whatever to pay attention and stop being jerk-offs.

Not really.

We have one Player who does this so we made him keep track of initiative.
Mistake.
Fights took even longer because he still couldn't pay attention & we would wait between turns till someone asked whose turn it was.
Now he doesn't do initiative.

Honestly, the problem isn't the gamers.

The problem is poor game design.

I love Skip Williams to death -- one of the top 5 game designers ever. But the battle mat and seven-hundred-and-fifty-five thousand feats, traits & class abilities that were eventually built into the d20 system that slow life down to a sloth, plus the 37 thousand iterative attacks, all make for the shi+tiest combat EVER.

Want your Players to pay attention?
Throw away the g0d damned battlemat!


If you're dealing with that many feats and iterative attacks at your table, you must have a huge group. :P

Grand Lodge

lol


Coolest thread I've seen in a while - I have nothing constructive to add, really, but I look forward to more great ideas/feedback :)


We just stopped playing with people who couldn't remember their characters from round-to-round or who were unwilling to learn teh basics of the system after years of playing.

Saves quite a bit of time.


W E Ray wrote:

But the battle mat and seven-hundred-and-fifty-five thousand feats, traits & class abilities that were eventually built into the d20 system that slow life down to a sloth, plus the 37 thousand iterative attacks, all make for the shi+tiest combat EVER.

You don't have to use every available rule. Stay to to the CRB and perhaps the APG (or parts from it) und the number of options is much smaller.


One thing that isn't necessarily "when it's not your turn" is to know your character's abilities well, which not everyone bothers to master (I understand it with new people).

The more you know, the less you have to look up. The less you have to look up, the faster things go. Plus then it's much easier to see what would be the most helpful thing to do on your turn in the situation you find yourself in.

This also means knowing your gear, knowing whether you can retrieve & use something in the time you'll have, knowing our movement abilities so you will know how to best get into position, and so on.

Also it means flexibility; a lot of people, immediately after something happens, decide what they're going to do when their turn comes around and then do that. Which can be fine, but you also have to not be wedded to a particular action; the situation is dynamic and just being ready to pop out your action when your turn comes up in order to speed table play is only half the problem. Mentally changing on the fly in mid-turn, being able to tell yourself "yeah I was going to do X, but now that Y has happened, Z would be better" is the other half.


I was that kind of player until the GM said: I say things juste once from now on...you didnt heard, you dont know...that's it!

And personaly, it's easier for me to pay attention when this is not just a combat. For exemple: When there's too much text, tweet or blabla, you add something like a percept check for everyone and somone or somthing happen totally unexpected form a regular combat so players have to think trough it while it's not their turn.

For exemple: You can set in a deck of many things falling from the pocket of the first enemy dead...

you can made a few gobelin sneak in the cave while they are on combat, and try to stole the treasure behind the enemy who was trying to protect it...

Strange runes on the walls suddenly appears?

Things like that

I dont know if this will help, im not a GM and i dont know DnD / Pathfinder well cause im a new player but maybe it could help

Also, sorry for my english my first language is french


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I learn more from paying attention to the actions of the other players at the table than I do from my own actions

Watching them and listening to what they are doing also helps me to formulate my own actions on my turn, since I understand what has gone on throughout the round

to assists others, I am as prepared as possible and take my turn as quickly and efficiently as I can

I go by the henry rollins time murderer philosophy, so I never want to hold anyone else up


Lamontius wrote:

I learn more from paying attention to the actions of the other players at the table than I do from my own actions

Watching them and listening to what they are doing also helps me to formulate my own actions on my turn, since I understand what has gone on throughout the round

to assists others, I am as prepared as possible and take my turn as quickly and efficiently as I can

Yup, I agree with all of that, which is why, IMO, one should know their own character's stuff before coming to play. Then you're not distracted trying to think through your own abilities or scramblig to look stuff up, and can focus on the situation, what others are doing, and adapt to it.

Shadow Lodge

Combat

When it's not my turn, I'm looking for AoO's. If I'm not the type of character who uses AoO's much, like a caster, then I'm with the people above trying to figure out the best placement of a spell based on changing position of peoples.

I've had some GM's who don't like pre-rolling. Especially in PFS, where you often game with people you don't know. Though rolling your d20 on the same toss as the damage dice speeds things up. Multiple attacks? Sets of dice, each attack in its own color.

Honestly, the turns are so short in pathfinder that I haven't had much problem with it. Guess I just get efficient people.

Out of Combat

Here it's another matter. When the party is split is the biggest culprit. GM working with one side, and the other half of the party is sitting around waiting for the GM to get back to them. And that gets hard. The GM and the half he's working with have to be telling a story compelling enough that the other half would rather just sit and watch than mess around on their phones. And the only thing you can really do is work on your storytelling skills.


Porphyrogenitus wrote:
Yup, I agree with all of that, which is why, IMO, one should know their own character's stuff before coming to play. Then you're not distracted trying to think through your own abilities or scramblig to look stuff up, and can focus on the situation, what others are doing, and adapt to it.

yeah

unfortunately the players who need to realize this the most
are probably not ever going to realize it at all
and almost certainly are not looking to better themselves by learning, organizing or seeking out advice

it is a constant battle for me as both a player and a GM, especially in PFS settings, to maintain a cool, calm and helpful demeanor with a player that either refuses to take helpful advice or who cannot/will-not understand that their slow play and disorganization is taking away from the experience of others at the table


One of the things I like to do when it's not a player's turn and we're in a non-combat scene like diplomacy w/a guard, one guy buying a helmet from a stubborn smith or whatever, is to have the other players take on the roles of the NPCs. They can be anyone they'd like; the guard/smith, a mouthy apprentice, an overly enthusiastic squire or what have you.

The goal of the GM is to entertain their players right? And the players are entertained by...playing I suppose you'd say. So; combine the 2 whenever possible.

Now this doesn't work for every player/situation. I have one group of friends that are DIE-HARD tacticians who go out of their way to avoid roleplaying. Handing one of these guys an NPC would actually hinder a scene. Instead for this group I try to run as many combats as are logical (we do a lot of dungeon hacking) and then give them GM duties between their turns:

1. roll attacks for monsters
2. suggest tactics with free action speech
3. make perception, sense motive, knowledge or heal checks to learn more about their opponents

Now that last one is houseruled, not strictly cricket so I'd only recommend that if you're desperate or well organized. The downside is it gives unfair advantage to the players. The upside is that they NEVER make these rolls before combat or on their own turns; they'd prefer to get the physical description of the enemy/threat and immediately conceive a way to destroy it, preferably with a weapon.

Finally that leads me to the one thing that most players in my groups seem to enjoy, regardless of their bent for RP: Perception checks. If you've got a player drifting off, texting or whatever, start with a Perception check. In combat between that player's turns it might be to notice sweat pouring down the monster's face (Fatigue) or the sudden crackle of magical energy (Spellcasting) or even to telegraph their next move. The result of this kind of check shouldn't automatically give any of the players tactical advantage; rather it might spark some conversation amongst the party. If they know the orcs in front of them have all been hit a couple times and one of them is really pale and starting to slur their words, they might choose to focus attacks on it since it's circling the drain, but they might all miss or not do enough damage or what have you.

Out of combat, Perception checks are the bomb! Use them for everything: in the wild they notice a deer at a nearby stream; some lizards congregating near a rocky crag or perhaps hear the flap of leathery wings over the tops of the trees. In the city perhaps they spy a pickpocket through the shop window while they're waiting for the wizard to buy a wand. None of the things HAVE to be plot hooks, distractions or amount to anything; they just remind the players outside their own turn that life in this fictional world doesn't just STOP when THEY'RE not doing something.

Liberty's Edge

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W E Ray wrote:


The problem is poor game design.

I love Skip Williams to death -- one of the top 5 game designers ever. But the battle mat and seven-hundred-and-fifty-five thousand feats, traits & class abilities that were eventually built into the d20 system that slow life down to a sloth, plus the 37 thousand iterative attacks, all make for the ********* combat EVER.

Want your Players to pay attention?
Throw away the ********* battlemat!

I completely disagree. I think the problem is simply players not bothering to learn the mechanics of their own characters. While it's true that there are insanely huge amounts of choices, those are chosen when you level up your character, you don't have all of those choices during every round of combat. Your own character isn't gonna have more than 20 or so feats and abilities, and I don't think it's unreasonable to ask that players take the time to read and remember what those abilities are. For spellcasters, granted there's more options, but you don't have the entire spellbook to choose from every round. You select them every day when you rest. And if you're a spontaneous caster, you have much fewer spells to learn.

All of those abilities have been trickling in tiny bits at a time since level 1, giving players ample time to learn them one at a time instead of trying to memorize the whole thing at once. Unfortunately there's not much a DM can do about this. It ultimately comes down to the time and interest a player is willing to invest in the game.


Mark Hoover wrote:
...a lot of smart things...

Like all of these, particularly the perception check to get errant players' attention back into things.

-Cross

Liberty's Edge

First off, this is a great topic!

Ok depending on the character i'm running, there should be little if any desicion process involved with a melee based character so I pay attention to the actions of others. Nothing annoys me more than having to tell the same player what happened does every table have that player? at seemingly every important part of the story. It is just disrespectful to the DM and players.

As a spellcaster I pay even closer attention so as to have the proper action prepared. I find the most important thing to do in the "negative" time is to talk to other characters and plan a proper strategy.

The Exchange

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One of the great values of this thread is that it's making me re-appraise my behavior in between turns. I have been known to derail things at times. I shall be more vigilant about my own behavior henceforth!

Things I've seen players doing between their turns:
Checking their e-mail, tweets, or otherwise suffering Screen Hypnosis (bad)
Checking a game rule on an electronic source (good, but hard to distinguish from the above)
Trying to tell a story having to do with anything other than the current situation (bad)
Figuring out which of their d20s is feeling charitable toward them tonight with lots of test rolling (neutral)
Trying to remember which die their character uses for damage (sad)
Quoting a movie everybody present has seen at least thrice (mildly bad)
Offering advice to the player in the hot-seat (varies)
Offering advice to the GM (usually bad)
Staring blankly into space, hopefully in thought (neutral)
Watching TV (bad)
Spilling their drink (bad), then cleaning it up (good, but still a net total of bad)
Reading a game rulebook (good... generally)
Shuffling cards (good - if game-related and a good shuffler: otherwise bad)
Staring thoughtfully at their character sheet (hopefully good)
Disappearing into another room (sometimes unavoidable, but not good)
Disappearing into another room to answer a cell phone call (much better than the alternative)
Making general comments about the action (good)
Waiting to ask the GM a question relevant to the situation (good)
Announcing an attack of opportunity (very good)
Announcing an attack of opportunity against another PC (...not as good)
Dozing off (bad, and not all that good a sign of the GM's skills either)
Making unused miniatures 'fight' (neutral)
As above, but with sound effects/dialogue (bad)
Designing their next character (bad, but probably prudent)

When I consider the sheer preponderance of bad behavior on this list, it's a wonder we get any combat done at all.


Good discussion. I want to chime in arguing that the PF rules are NOT the problem.

Why is this so? Because less experienced players always have the option of playing simpler PCs.

It's fine --sometimes even better in power-gaming terms-- to just play a PC that swings a sword and either hits or misses.

On top of that structure you can build a lot of fun, colorful role-laying.

But even with more complicated classes -- spellcasters, skill-monkeys, etc. -- MOST of the stuff is pretty straightforward.

So if you have one particular gimmick that's tricky -- you sometimes grapple or you sometimes throw a muddley spell -- you just have to have that one thing wired and sorted.

Especially with so much "downtime" between turns, there's just no excuse for saying, "I throw a "Take That You Fiend" but I don't really know what it does.

Especially-especially if some of that downtime has been spent checking your email... :)

--Marsh


D_GENNEXT wrote:
You should be watching the encounter and plotting your actions for the following round.

This. Don't spend a minute at the start of your turn analyzing the situation; spend it during the turn of the guy before you.

And for crap's sake, if you're a spellcaster, look up your spells before your turn if you don't have them on cards or something. Nothing annoyed me more as a DM than the player saying 'I cast (X)' and I ask 'Does that have a save or spell resistance' and the player has to stop and open a book.


What do *I* do?

I determine positioning and attacks, roll my hits and damage during a previous character's round, then go.

I don't bring my laptop to give myself distracting options other than the game at hand and I either leave my phone in the car, or turn it off or both.

Since 1st Ed I've usually played a melee character or rogue, so that simplifies things.

That said, though we're all in our 40s-50s, my group's dynamic is such that the casters and whoever is GM parse every permutation of the spell possibilities each round, so in a 6-player group (the current campaign is now 7 players) I go once each 40-60 minutes during an encounter, my turn takes 1-3 minutes, and then I'm looking at rulebooks, listening in, cutting up, or - yes, it's true - sitting on the couch with my eyes closed which occasionally involves sleep ;) What I am NOT doing is electically distracting myself.

This go-round I am playing a caster (Ranger/EK) because I need to broaden my understanding, because I need to understand what players who play casters go through, and because I hope to show that a caster's rounds needn't be so time-consuming.

All that aside, it is important for a player to choose and build a character that is NOT a one-trick pony. Players, melee or not, should be able to do more than one thing in a combat encounter, and should have capabilities to keep themselves engaged out of combat.

A GM who employs some of what has been suggested helps as well, but if the players can't make efforts at building multi-capable characters, and then make at least a moderate committment to efficient play, everyone's time is being wasted.

I've sent my group a link to this thread, so I hope I'm not getting myself into trouble ;)


I'm usually looking up spells when it isnt my turn, or making something to eat, or potty breaks.

What annoys me, is when one of the players is playing a Fighter and keeps asking for the book. What on earth do you need the book for? You're going to full attack the baddy. You full attacked him last turn when you asked for the book, and the turn before that when you asked for the book. Quit taking the book from me!!! >:C


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Push-ups and sit-ups.

I play via Roll20 and have a solid set of wireless headphones. I've turned gaming night into a 3 hour low-weight-high-rep workout session.

Turns into comedy when I get ambitious, like the time I was doing elevated push-ups off of some furniture and slipped, falling a couple of feet onto a hardwood floor...on my combat round. Failed a reflex save in game and in real life.


Great topic!

I'd propose that players rotate in a "color commentator" role. Basically, after the stats are announced, that player's job is to describe what just happened in colorful narrative terms. At my tables, as a player and as a DM, I get so busy that I forget to do this consistently. Having a new player each round take care of it is a good way to activate the off-screen space, so to speak, in a way that promotes a more memorable game.

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