What gods do you need


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Sovereign Court

I am not bothered by existence of gods in a setting. It's for the most part enriching, and gives it verisimilitude.

What i am bothered by is the treatment of "atheist" characters (damn, non worshipers sounds a little silly). The fact that they get the short end of the stick because they refuse to worship a powerful outsider. I get it is sort of a holdover from older settings, but it's ridiculous. Why couldn't non-worshipers just go to the plane that their alignment mirrors? Because they will be judged for refusing to give their adoration to a god? Please.


Hama wrote:
What i am bothered by is the treatment of "atheist" characters (damn, non worshipers sounds a little silly). The fact that they get the short end of the stick because they refuse to worship a powerful outsider. I get it is sort of a holdover from older settings, but it's ridiculous. Why couldn't non-worshipers just go to the plane that their alignment mirrors? Because they will be judged for refusing to give their adoration to a god? Please.

They really should, and I'm not a fan of the way a small quote means that canonically atheist are fed to a god of madness.

Thankfully we're in gamer life, so instead of talking about the base game we can talk about how we can do better in our home games and the settings we make.

As to afterlife, I've had several settings where it depends on your race, some where its luck, and others where its universal. I prefer luck the best. A lost and forlorn soul could find new adventures if he lucks out! Or you know, not. Depends on the character and narration.

Grand Lodge

I actually hate having several deities in a setting, and what I hate more is the concept of evil deities. Why on earth would you worship them?! I'm going to worship this god that basically hates everybody---his followers included---so I can wind up in his realm after death where I'll be tortured mercilessly forever and ever. Yay!

(OK, I get it for Zon-Kuthon followers, but the rest of it? Utterly stupid.)

Not only that, but you're objectively told what you're doing is evil. Good and evil are tangible concepts with spells and abilities that detect them. No person we would call 'evil' ever thought of themselves as evil.

And if you objectively KNEW a church is evil, why on earth would you allow them to exist in civilized society? And if they don't, how would there ever be enough worshipers to be considered a major religion? It just begs too many questions.

I condensed my pantheon into 4 deities, all tied to an element, and all covering domains that are normally tied to both good and evil deities. So, for instance, my Fire deity is tied to Glory and Freedom, but also Destruction and Death. My Earth deity is tied to Community and Commerce, but also Tyranny and Slavery. Seems to work fine.

The only thing I did change a bit was how Paladins work. Since there aren't any actual "Good" deities they can commit to, they instead commit to one of 4 Knightly Courts and are blessed by a secret ritual known only to the leaders of those courts. Also depending on which court they get a more specific Paladin code to help clear up some alignment squabbles.


EntrerisShadow wrote:
And if you objectively KNEW a church is evil, why on earth would you allow them to exist in civilized society? And if they don't, how would there ever be enough worshipers to be considered a major religion? It just begs too many questions.

Well I've never tied anyone to being evil. That said, even in Golarion deities usually cut a good deal and don't label their churches with evil in capital letters. The idea that they are evil is something someone came up with and labeled them usually. Asmodaeus is god of contracts, Lamashtu is a mother, etc.

I much prefer aspects of the god being separate from their identity and followers, but maybe I'm just weird.

Silver Crusade

I agree. Having a religion of 'EVIL' is a bad idea. It makes no sense. Also its important to remember with pantheons that they don't follow the Christian 'services on sunday' approach, and might not have a flock so much as people who show up from time to time and say 'POSEIDON BE MIGHTY PEEVED!' Its one of the reasons I dislike the Belief-Makes-It-Real stuff for deities. Like we're discussing, it makes evil deities kind of pointless.

To use examples from my pantheon (cited way above).

NE greater god of war. (ends justify the means)
- Is a war god invoked for help, also merchants who are more cutthroat, people who need to accomplish things at any means. Basically a god you turn to when you really need something and don't care who suffers for it. Also worshipped a little more...violently by humanoids and other people. No real 'services.'

LN(E) intermediate god of revenge.
- Invoked by executioners, people carrying out actions of justice, trial courts, bountyhunters, etc.

CE greater goddess of destruction
- Acts as a death deity, also is more a faith of the 'pray to so they leave you alone' sort. Her clergy tends to attract people interested in power and quashing the world's current system. Doesn't really aim for a society as she prefers seeing people die off entirely.

CE lesser goddess of disease and corruption.
- Is mostly worshipped by crazy jackasses, but is also invoked by revolutionaries and let us say people of dubious character who want to attempt to corrupt people for their own purposes. A mob boss might have a little shrine to her somewhere, dedicated solely to trying to keep the fuzz away.

I tend to prefer the idea of there being gods, and those gods just happen to ahve their portfolios because either they earned it, stole it, or somehow got the job.

Hades in Greek mythology "won" the underworld by losing a dice game and the administration of the underworld came to be the way Hades wanted it to be.

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