The following was inspired by Byrdology's Shadowdancer revisited thread. I'd mentioned I actually felt shadowdancer would be better represented as an archetype and decided to see how it'd work out.
StreamOfTheSky had an interesting point in a post, that being the direct labeling of Shadow Jump as Dimension Door to allow for use of the Dimensional Feat chain.
Constructive comments, suggestions, and criticism appreciated.
Rough First Draft: Rogue Archetype: Shadowdancer
Bump
I personally would swap Summon Shadow and Shadow Power. Obviously, this would cause Shadow Power to require a bit of a rewrite, but it puts it closer in line with the original prestige class and when they get those abilities in relation to one another.
Will talk to one of my players who is playing a rogue/shadowdancer to see if she would like to re-do her character using this archetype with the suggested change and see what she thinks. If she's willing, I'll be able to give you some playtested feedback.
I personally would swap Summon Shadow and Shadow Power. Obviously, this would cause Shadow Power to require a bit of a rewrite, but it puts it closer in line with the original prestige class and when they get those abilities in relation to one another.
I agree, looking at it again. I went ahead and made the suggested change, which just took a couple of minor edits.
Will talk to one of my players who is playing a rogue/shadowdancer to see if she would like to re-do her character using this archetype with the suggested change and see what she thinks. If she's willing, I'll be able to give you some playtested feedback.
Outside of a 1 level dip, I haven't had any of my players ever invest in the shadowdancer prestige class and any further refinements - theorycrafting or playtest - you can suggest are much appreciated.
Looks good! I like what you've done to the place...
Looks good! I like what you've done to the place...
I'm glad you like it! My main concern is that the powers aren't "distributed" correctly across the levels, though I tried to correlate the acquisition of most of them to the "earliest" you could normally acquire them with a rogue/shadowdancer prestige class.
I think you did it well enough. I still like to keep it as a separate PrC for my paladins and rangers (with the SA of course), but I do like this as an alternate.
I think you did it well enough. I still like to keep it as a separate PrC for my paladins and rangers (with the SA of course), but I do like this as an alternate.
I just slapped together an Assassin Archetype for the rogue in the same link as the shadowdancer (right after the shadowdancer archetype). It was a lot easier than I originally thought it'd be.
You don't need to lower the skills/ lvl on the assassin. Everything is an even swap.
You don't need to lower the skills/ lvl on the assassin. Everything is an even swap.
Thanks for catching that. It should be corrected now.
Quick update. Talked to my player. She has started the rebuild. The character is level 10. Unfortunately, looks like we will not get to play until next month due to a snafu with my wife's work schedule.
Quick update. Talked to my player. She has started the rebuild. The character is level 10. Unfortunately, looks like we will not get to play until next month due to a snafu with my wife's work schedule.
Thanks for the update and no worries. Conflicting schedules is probably one of the biggest problems adult players face. =)
"If a shadow companion is destroyed, or the shadowdancer chooses to dismiss it, the shadowdancer must attempt a DC 15 Fortitude save. If the saving throw fails, the shadowdancer gains one permanent negative level. A successful saving throw avoids this negative level. A destroyed or dismissed shadow companion cannot be replaced for 30 days."
This right here in my mind is probably the number one reason why you don't see more people playing the shadowdancer. The risk of gaining a permanent negative level makes summoning a shadow the biggest threat to the shadowdancer.
Otherwise I think this is a great idea.
By the time you get the shadow companion restoration isn't that much of a cost to eat, so I don't really think that is the problem. I really think that it is with archetypes there is so much more customization possible, pretige classes in general aren't that attractive to players anymore. And a lot of the flavor of shadowdancer can be replicated with ninja. Shadowdancer was how you became a ninja before the ninja class came to be.
Ivan pretty much explains how I see the permanent negative level issue. Restoration really makes that negligable once it is available.
I do, however, have issues with the shadow companion:
1. You have enslaved and are commanding an undead creature. This typically reflects a neutral or evil alignment on the moral scale. Why does the prestige class not have an alignment restriction of "any non-good"?
2. I hate "companions" of any sort. I regularly have 8 players and while responsible with their special pals, it can contribute to even slower combats. Once they decided to have a bit of fun (at my expense) and rolled up a party of druids and rangers as a joke on me (hooray, 8 players and 8 animal companions!). Until they told me they were kidding, I was dreading running combats for that group.
I'd much rather see the class feature replaced (or at least offered as an option instead of the shadow companion) with something else, perhaps a re-flavored version of the Mantis Assassin's red shround ability:
Shadow Shroud (Su) At 3rd level, a shadowdancer gains the ability to create a veil of shadowy smoke a number of times per day equal to her Constitution bonus (minimum once per day) as a move-equivalent action. The shadow shroud persists for 1 round per class level. It grants a +1 dodge bonus to AC and fast healing equal to her Constitution bonus (minimum of fast healing 1). This smoke cannot be dissipated by wind. If she is slain while this ability is active, she can choose whether to remain corporeal or to disintegrate into a cloud of shadowy smoke that leaves behind only her gear in order to deprive her enemies of access to her remains.
I see the relationship with the shadow companion as much the same as an animal companion or familiar. You haven't enslaved it, you have formed a bond with it. The fact that it is undead is irrelevant since it has the same alignment as the character.
Feel your pain on the companions thing, though I like them myself. My old 3.5 group had up to 11 people once, and companions were quickly shunted due to time.
I think you are onto something with the Shadow Shroud as an option. Maybe everything under Shadow Affinity could be rewritten more like rogue talents, and add a few more options. I think several of them would have to have level requirements before you take them.....ok, decided to go ahead and rewrite it myself, and added several new options. Spoilered for length.
Summon Shadow (Su) At the selected level, a shadowdancer can summon a shadow, an undead shade. Unlike a normal shadow, this shadow's alignment matches that of the shadowdancer, and the creature cannot create spawn. The summoned shadow receives a +4 bonus on Will saves made to halve the damage from positive channeled energy and the shadow cannot be turned or commanded. This shadow serves as a companion to the shadowdancer and can communicate intelligibly with the shadowdancer. This shadow has a number of hit points equal to half the shadowdancer's total. The shadow uses the shadowdancer's base attack bonus and base save bonuses.
If a shadow companion is destroyed, or the shadowdancer chooses to dismiss it, the shadowdancer must attempt a DC 15 Fortitude save. If the saving throw fails, the shadowdancer gains one permanent negative level. A successful saving throw avoids this negative level. A destroyed or dismissed shadow companion cannot be replaced for 30 days.
Shadow Shroud (Su) At the selected level, a shadowdancer gains the ability to create a veil of shadowy smoke a number of times per day equal to her Constitution bonus (minimum once per day) as a move-equivalent action. The shadow shroud persists for 1 round per class level. It grants a +1 dodge bonus to AC and fast healing equal to her Constitution bonus (minimum of fast healing 1). This smoke cannot be dissipated by wind. If she is slain while this ability is active, she can choose whether to remain corporeal or to disintegrate into a cloud of shadowy smoke that leaves behind only her gear in order to deprive her enemies of access to her remains.
Shadow Weapon (Sp) At the selected level, a shadowdancer gains shadow weapon as a spell like ability. A shadowdancer can use this ability once per day at the selected level , plus one additional time per day for every three levels attained beyond the selected level (2/day at the selected level + 3, 3/day at the selected level + 6, 4/day at the selected level + 9, 5/day at the selected level +12, and 6/day at the selected level +15).
Shadow Projection (Sp) At the selected level, a shadowdancer gains shadow projection as a spell like ability. A shadowdancer can use this ability once per day at the selected level , plus one additional time per day for every four levels attained beyond the selected level (2/day at the selected level + 4, 3/day at the selected level + 8, and 4/day at the selected level + 12). The shadowdancer must be at least 7th level before selecting this affinity.
Shadow Call (Sp) At the selected level, a shadowdancer can create creatures and effects out of raw shadow. This ability functions as shadow conjuration, using the shadowdancer's level as the caster level. A shadowdancer can use this ability once per day at the selected level , plus one additional time per day for every four levels attained beyond the selected level (2/day at the selected level + 4, 3/day at the selected level + 8, and 4/day at the selected level + 12). Upon reaching 15th level, this ability functions as greater shadow conjuration. The DC for this ability is Charisma-based. The shadowdancer must be at least 7th level before selecting this affinity.
Shadow Jump (Su) At the selected level, a shadowdancer gains dimension door as a spell-like ability. The limitation is that the magical transport must begin and end in an area with at least some dim light. A shadowdancer can jump up to a total of 40 feet each day in this way; this may be a single jump of 40 feet or four jumps of 10 feet each. Every three levels higher than the selected level, the distance a shadowdancer can jump each day doubles (80 feet at the selected level + 3, 160 feet at the selected level + 6, 320 feet at the selected level + 9, and 640 feet at the selected level +12). This amount can be split among many jumps, but each one, no matter how small, counts as a 10-foot increment. The shadowdancer must be at least 7th level before selecting this affinity.
Shadow Power (Sp) At the selected level a shadowdancer can use raw shadow to damage her foes. This ability functions as shadow evocation, using the shadowdancer's level as the caster level. A shadowdancer can use this ability once per day at the selected level, plus one additional time per day for every four levels attained beyond the selected level (2/day at the selected level + 4, 3/day at the selected level + 8, and 4/day at the selected level +12). The DC for this ability is Charisma-based. The shadowdancer must be at least 9th level before selecting this affinity.
Shadow Walk (Sp) At the selected level, a shadowdancer gains shadow walk as a spell like ability. A shadowdancer can use this ability once per day at the selected level , plus one additional time per day for every four levels attained beyond the selected level (2/day at the selected level + 4, and 3/day at the selected level + 8). This affinity can only be selected at 11th level.
I had a lengthy response where I commented I liked your idea with a few minor changes, but the boards ate it. As I'm having trouble maintaining a stable connection to the Paizo boards (but no other sites) I'll respond later this afternoon in detail after my dentist appointment.
Cool. I'll check for it tonight during my break at work.
I hadn't noticed the alignment matching in the summon shadow. Thanks for pointing that out.
This will be a lot shorter than my original post, but that's probably for the best, lol.
I love the idea of granting the abilites as talents with a minimum level for prerequisites and the addition of new abilities for customization of the "shadow affinities".
The things I immediately considered after reading your post are as follows (1st question, 2nd mechanics issue):
1. Are shadow affinities too powerful to replace a rogue talent on a affinity per talent basis, i.e. reintroduce the standard sneak progression and in place of talents, select the affinities with a minimum level prerequisite?
2. Use of the "from selected level + X" is unique; some other class features which grant uses per day do regardless of level selected, while others are dependent on a static level. The thought is to try and make it more "elegant" mechanically. Basically, assume (whether true or not) they took each "affinity" at the minimum required level and stick with uses based soley on that?
I got it... Shadow synthesis (armor if you will)! Miss chances, regen stealth bonuses and the like until you take x dmg/ day. You are subject to dmg vs bright light and such while wearing it.
I hadn't noticed the alignment matching in the summon shadow. Thanks for pointing that out.
This will be a lot shorter than my original post, but that's probably for the best, lol.
I love the idea of granting the abilites as talents with a minimum level for prerequisites and the addition of new abilities for customization of the "shadow affinities".
The things I immediately considered after reading your post are as follows (1st question, 2nd mechanics issue):
1. Are shadow affinities too powerful to replace a rogue talent on a affinity per talent basis, i.e. reintroduce the standard sneak progression and in place of talents, select the affinities with a minimum level prerequisite?
2. Use of the "from selected level + X" is unique; some other class features which grant uses per day do regardless of level selected, while others are dependent on a static level. The thought is to try and make it more "elegant" mechanically. Basically, assume (whether true or not) they took each "affinity" at the minimum required level and stick with uses based soley on that?
Good points. Will have to reexamine when I get home. If we can bring the full sneak attack back in, my player would be extremely happy. Maybe some of the more powerful ones could be written as advanced shadow affinities, and could function like advanced rogue talents? I also wonder if we should rewrite shadow jump to function as shadow step instead of as dimension door. Then the dim light or darkness clause is pre-written into the spell, instead of having to write it into the affinity.
I think this is a good idea but you get Hide in Plain Sight at 6th level, when other classes wait till much later, which could be a problem with being overpowered. Also, these sound closer to alternate classes than archetypes, but thats just a technicality
You can take your first level of the shadowdancer prestige class at 6th level, and the hide in plain sight ability is a 1st level shadowdancer class feature, so it's a non-issue. :)
Please spin up a balanced alternate for the shadow companion based on my shadow synthesis (shadow armor). I don't trust myself... (Too much rum and sun)
Good points. Will have to reexamine when I get home. If we can bring the full sneak attack back in, my player would be extremely happy. Maybe some of the more powerful ones could be written as advanced shadow affinities, and could function like advanced rogue talents? I also wonder if we should rewrite shadow jump to function as shadow step instead of as dimension door. Then the dim light or darkness clause is pre-written into the spell, instead of having to write it into the affinity.
I'll try to do a write up at some point tonight. My 2 year old has my day pretty much monopolized.
I think you're spot on with the affinities: pre-10th prerequisites are standard, while 10+ are advanced and both sets replace talents. Rogue talents are generally horrible, so while it will up the power level of the rogue, I don't know that it will make them "all stars".
Re: Shadow Jump - I think you're right. The original reason I rephrased the shadow jump as dimension door was to enable a shadow dancer to take the Dimensional Agility feat chains, which I would still love to see them be able to do. Thoughts?
I think this is a good idea but you get Hide in Plain Sight at 6th level, when other classes wait till much later, which could be a problem with being overpowered. Also, these sound closer to alternate classes than archetypes, but thats just a technicality
Yeah, the primary reason why Hide in Plain Sight (HiPS) is set at 6th is due to that being the earliest you could normally acquire it as a rogue (always a level 1 dip, unfortunately). Perhaps it could be added to the "affinities" as an option (mind you, an option I don't think anyone would skip)?
Please spin up a balanced alternate for the shadow companion based on my shadow synthesis (shadow armor). I don't trust myself... (Too much rum and sun)
I think we can definitely see what we can come up with. Too much rum?? Blasphemer!
You might also look at SirHexenIneptus's own Shadow Knight shadowdancer archetype (parts 1 and 2) for ideas.
I went ahead and made the proposed changes for review. Only thing really "new" I added was the "shadowglide affinity".
As of the moment, I haven't worked on Byrds shadow armor or taken sufficient time to look over the material suggested by Ambrosia - I will, I assure you. Your suggestions are appreciated.=)
Re: Shadow Jump - I think you're right. The original reason I rephrased the shadow jump as dimension door was to enable a shadow dancer to take the Dimensional Agility feat chains, which I would still love to see them be able to do. Thoughts?
Been a busy few days. Liking the rewrite. Was unaware of the Dimensional Agility feats, and I agree the wording should be kept to allow access to them. Looking forward to seeing more affinities. :D
A personal creation of mine, the Shadow Knight, has been up on their blog for a little now. This might be a fix for your players and the PrC.
April 25th (Part 1)
April 26th (Part 2)
I hope everyone can enjoy it I am proud of the end product.
-Hexen
Been a busy few days. Liking the rewrite. Was unaware of the Dimensional Agility feats, and I agree the wording should be kept to allow access to them. Looking forward to seeing more affinities. :D
I know your pain, lol.
I plan to add some more very soon, but got distracted by trying some work on a Social Combat system and some "clean up" of some of the race rules I use for my home setting. I'll try to get the new affinities pushed out this week.
A personal creation of mine, the Shadow Knight, has been up on their blog for a little now. This might be a fix for your players and the PrC.
April 25th (Part 1)
April 26th (Part 2)I hope everyone can enjoy it I am proud of the end product.
-Hexen
Tell you the truth, you have every reason to be proud of it. I really like what you did with it and fully plan on "borrowing" from it for the archetype and allowing it as an option for characters who prefer the prestige class to the rogue archetype.
A personal creation of mine, the Shadow Knight, has been up on their blog for a little now. This might be a fix for your players and the PrC.
April 25th (Part 1)
April 26th (Part 2)I hope everyone can enjoy it I am proud of the end product.
-Hexen
The Shadow Knight is good. It's just too much fighter, and not enough rogue for my player's taste.
I did a little bit of looking about for ideas and added in the following shadow affinities for brainstorming (which need critique and balancing, of course):
Standard: Dancing Shadows
Advanced: Hungry Darkness, Shadow Strike, Shadow Specialization
magispitt casts thread necromancy
Sorry about the thread necro, just thought I'd share an update. My player wanted an archetype for the ninja because he doesn't like multiclassing into shadow dancer as he'll lose progression with some ninja features. So in the spirit of the thread I've spoilered an archetype for the ninja, which is basically just the OP's work adapted. Enjoy!
Class Skills: The shadowdancer's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Acrobatics (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Sleight of Hand (Dex), and Stealth (Dex). (This replaces the ninja’s class skills)
Darkvision (Ex) At 2nd level, a shadowdancer gains darkvision out to a range of 60 feet. If she already has darkvision, the range increases by 30 feet. (This replaces poison use)
Shadow Affinity Beginning at 6th level, a shadowdancer improves her power over shadows. A shadowdancer may select one of the following shadow affinities in place of a ninja talent.
Dancing Shadows (Sp) As a move action, the shadowdancer draws upon the energy of the plane of Shadow to create miniature globs of shadows that act like dancing lights in all ways except as follows. Rather than each light illuminating as a torch, each wisp reduces the light level by one step within a 20 foot radius. Several wisps of dusk do not stack to reduce the light level of an area more than once. At 12th level, activating this ability is a swift action.
Hide in Plain Sight (Su) A shadowdancer can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of an area of dim light, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow.
Shadowglide (Su) The shadowdancer never treats any terrain in dim or worse lighting conditions as difficult terrain. Additionally, when in dim or less lighting, the shadowdancer may move 10 feet whenever taking the 5-foot step action.
Summon Shadow (Su) A shadowdancer can summon a shadow, an undead shade. Unlike a normal shadow, this shadow's alignment matches that of the shadowdancer, and the creature cannot create spawn. The summoned shadow receives a +4 bonus on Will saves made to halve the damage from positive channeled energy and the shadow cannot be turned or commanded. This shadow serves as a companion to the shadowdancer and can communicate intelligibly with the shadowdancer. This shadow has a number of hit points equal to half the shadowdancer's total. The shadow uses the shadowdancer's base attack bonus and base save bonuses.
If a shadow companion is destroyed, or the shadowdancer chooses to dismiss it, the shadowdancer must attempt a DC 15 Fortitude save. If the saving throw fails, the shadowdancer gains one permanent negative level. A successful saving throw avoids this negative level. A destroyed or dismissed shadow companion cannot be replaced for 30 days.
Shadow Call (Sp) A shadowdancer can create creatures and effects out of raw shadow. This ability functions as shadow conjuration, using the shadowdancer's level as the caster level. A shadowdancer can use this ability once per day at 8th level, plus one additional time per day for every four levels attained beyond 8th (2/day at 12th level, 3/day at 16th level, and 4/day at 20th level). Upon reaching 15th level, this ability functions as greater shadow conjuration. The DC for this ability is Charisma-based. The shadowdancer must be at least 8th level before selecting this affinity.
Hungry Darkness (Sp) The shadowdancer creates an area of intense blackness, filled with unseen, ravenous maws. This ability functions as hungry darkness, using the shadowdancer's level as the caster level. A shadowdancer can use this ability once per day at 14th level, plus one additional time per day for every four levels attained beyond 14th (2/day at 18th level). The DC for this ability is Charisma-based. The shadowdancer must be at least 14th level before selecting this affinity.
Shadowstrike (Su) As a standard action, the shadowdancer makes a melee attack while create an illusory double of his weapon. This double cloaks the shadowdancer's real attack. The shadowdancer's opponent is caught flat-footed against this strike, as the hidden attack from a new direction ruins his defenses.
Prerequisite: Greater Feint.
Shadow Specialization (Ex) When a shadowdancer casts shadow conjuration, shadow evocation, and similar illusion spells that have a listed fraction of the strength of real effects, he increases the percentage of damage caused by the spell’s effect or summoned creatures by one-fifth (+20%) against creatures that make their saving throw against the effect, up to a maximum of 100% of the strength. For example, shadow evocation and shadow conjuration deal 40% normal damage on a successful save instead of 20%.
Prerequisites: Shadow call or shadow power.
Shadow Jump (Su) A shadowdancer gains dimension door as a spell-like ability. The limitation is that the magical transport must begin and end in an area with at least some dim light. A shadowdancer can jump up to a total of 40 feet each day in this way; this may be a single jump of 40 feet or four jumps of 10 feet each. Every three levels higher than 10th, the distance a shadowdancer can jump each day doubles (80 feet at 13th, 160 feet at 16th, and 320 feet at 19th). This amount can be split among many jumps, but each one, no matter how small, counts as a 10-foot increment.
Shadow Power (Sp) A shadowdancer can use raw shadow to damage her foes. This ability functions as shadow evocation, using the shadowdancer's level as the caster level. A shadowdancer can use this ability once per day at 11th level, plus one additional time per day for every four levels attained beyond 10th (2/day at 14th level, and 3/day at 18th level). The DC for this ability is Charisma-based.
Shadow Master (Su) At 20th level, whenever a shadowdancer is in an area of dim light, she gains DR 10/— and a +2 luck bonus on all saving throws. In addition, whenever she successfully scores a critical hit against a foe who is in an area of dim light, that foe is blinded for 1d6 rounds. (This ability replaces master strike.)