Is my ninja build going to remain viable at higher levels?


Advice


Hoping for some more feedback...

Playing a Second Darkness campaign. Built a Fetchling Ninja and just hit level 2. I've had an idea for this character for a while, but haven't really penciled it all in yet, as I'm not sure what feats are most useful in what order.

Setim, LE male Fetchling Ninja (Scout) level 2
Str 16
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 12
Wis 8
Cha 13

Improved Init

Acrobatics +7, Bluff +5, Climb +6, Disable Device +7, Disguise +7, Intimidate +6, Kn (Planes) +4, Kn (Local) +5, Perception +4, Sleight of Hand +6, Stealth +9, Survival +4, Use Magic Device +5.

2-handing a katana, with a supply of shuriken.
AC 16 (studded leather)
HP 17
F +1
R +6
W 0

2 ki points and Vanishing Trick

I've read the optimization guides for both ninjas and rogues, and wanted to try something different. I was really interested in the Knife Master / Scout combo rogue, but wanted to play a ninja, so I kept the Scout part. I know that Brute Rogues can be effective, but haven't yet seen anything on brute ninjas. I know that shuriken can dish out lots of damage in monk builds.

The idea is a brute ninja. With a high stealth, I'd like to be able to close in on opponents, open with a shuriken flurry (Flurry of Stars), and then move to sneak attack with a high crit range katana and power attack. I'd like to take advantage of poison use on the shuriken, especially since I can flurry and then Vanish as a swift action to let the poison take it's effect before finishing the kill. With the scout, I'd also like to take Charging Hurler, so I can make charging ranged sneak attacks on surprise rounds, and then (hopefully) win initiative to move 10 feet and sneak attack with a katana.

Seems really feat heavy, though. Power Attack, Weapon Focus (katana), Point Blank Shot, Deadly Aim (probably, eventually), Charging Hurler, Improved Crit. Also seems like there is little room for adjustment on ninja tricks, as I need to use at least some of them for feats.

In the two sessions we've had so far, the character has been a blast to play, has been highly effective in combat, and is seeing character development. I want this to work.

What are my best options? Where should I be concerned (AC, Will saves, BAB, etc)? Are there aspects of this that I should just scrap, or ninja tricks I can't pass up?


Your build will work better than a base rogue, I can say that much. I wouldn't bother with Deadly Aim, you lose as much as you gain, and I'd be in two minds with Power Attack unless you also take Furious Focus (your to-hit will be down enough as is).


No Deadly Aim. I guess Point Blank Shot would be a better use of a feat, and required for Hurling Charger, which is essential. I can understand that.

Power Attack seems too important for a Brute based character to give up, though, especially with a high crit range weapon. I guess Furious Focus works better with a character without full BAB. Trade off Deadly Aim for Furious Focus, then. Probably a good trade.


The biggest problem I can see is that your saves will be terrible. Especially your will save, since you dumped Wisdom.

I'd go with Str 16, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 10 and Cha 14.

Remember: Rogue/Ninja saves are terrible. And saves are extremely important at mid/high levels...

After 10th level, your Fort and Will saves will start to lag behind, so keep in mind that Cloaks of Resistance, cracked Pale Green Ioun Stone and traits such as Resilient and Indomitable faith are your friends!

Being a Native Outsider at least means you don't have to worry with Charm/Dominate Person.

Your AC will never be amazing, but with Offensive Defense, Shadow Clone and Vanishing Trick/Invisible Blade, you'll have decent defenses.

You might want to consider a Finesse build with Dervish Dance and simply refluff the scimitar as a Katana.

This way you could go with Str 11 Dex 18 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 14 and have better AC, Initiative, Reflex, Fort and HP.


I see the saves as being my biggest weakness. My strategy is to try to stay untargetable by being hidden or invisible, or else to have engaged enemy spellcasters in melee. I did take a trait to give me a +1 Will bonus. I'm going to have to figure out ways to offset it further, obviously, and I won't be able to afford to take Iron Will until probably the double digits.

I hate Dervish Dance as a feat. I think it's cheesy, and think that there should be an Improved Weapon Finesse feat or something that allows a character to treat a weapon you can use with Weapon Finesse as dealing Dex damage instead of Str. And I liked the idea of a ninja using a katana. A ninja using a scimitar just doesn't have the right flavor.

I will concede that I could have gone with a Con of 14 by dropping my Int to 10 and Cha to 12, and then getting that extra skill point via favored class bonus. I always get strung out with skills. There's only five that I think I need to keep maxed with this character, but I wanted to splash 8 others for situational circumstance and roleplay, and now I'm thinking I should max Craft (Alchemy) to concoct cheaper poisons for my shurken flurry tactic.

Shadow Lodge

martryn wrote:

Playing a Second Darkness campaign. Built a Fetchling Ninja and just hit level 2. I've had an idea for this character for a while, but haven't really penciled it all in yet, as I'm not sure what feats are most useful in what order.

Setim, LE male Fetchling Ninja (Scout) level 2
Str 16
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 12
Wis 8
Cha 13

1. I like higher CHA for better Ki pool. (STR is overdone here; you'll notice that by 5th when the amount 0f damage from stat bonuses diminishes compared to sneak dice.)

2. Better avoid will saves (somehow)

3. Are those rolled stats? That's only 18 points post-racial on a Fletchling. 15/14/14/14/12/07 is the most bonus-friendly 20pt buy array (put 15 in prime stat for a racial 17 & raise 4th + item for a 20; put 7 in INT and raise 8th).

BTW, is your GM aware that Fletchlings have a "race point" cost of 17? ...if not, he's going to be unhappy (and the other players annoyed by your outclassing them) when you start claiming 50% miss chances all the time and cake-walk the encounters. Unless he either doesn't care or is running 35pt buy, your build is either undercooked or overdone, depending.

Quote:
2-handing a katana, with a supply of shuriken.

Buy a Goz Mask and a wand of Obscuring Mist to UMD. Take the Flurry of Stars Ki power (and imagine the number of sneaks you'll get versus denied-DEX opponents). This concept is particularly good with halflings and/or dippers in Darkness domain clerics.


1. I wanted a higher Str because the last two rogues I attempted to play in Pathfinder were useless without Sneak Attack, and my groups in the past have sorta been jerks about helping me set up a flank. The build is largely intended to make the most of every opportunity I have to Sneak Attack (Flurry of Stars, Charging Hurler, Scout archetype), while allowing me to dish out high Str, Power Attack crit damage against opponents I face 1-on-1. The idea is to severely weaken an enemy with early surprise round Sneak Attacks and be able to finish off quickly, solo, after that. I think I'll be spending a lot of time scouting ahead, and want to make sure that I can take out my opposition without aid from others.

Plus, I've recently played a dual wielding Dex based rogue, and wanted to try something different and go against the grain.

2. Hopefully they'll be dead, or I'll be invisible, to avoid most Will saves I'd otherwise have to make. I accept the danger of the low Will save. It comes with playing a rogue.

3. It's 20 points. You made a math error somewhere. Base stats:
16/14/12/12/10/11 = 10+5+2+2+1+0. It's the downside to playing a high Str character without a racial bonus to Str and a point-buy system.

I realize that I could dump something to a 7, but... I mentioned how enamored I am with skills, and getting 6 skill points per level with a class that needs so many... I would have to make sacrifices. Plus, I'd have trouble playing a low Int character. It's roleplay choices I don't want to sacrifice.

Ninjas need Cha, my build requires a high Str and at least a mediocre Dex to offset my lower AC. You can't dump Con. I decided to go with Wis and eat the Will save and Perception penalties. The Barbarian in the party already has a much better Perception, so Will saves are where I'll need to watch out, as you mentioned.

Quote:
BTW, is your GM aware that Fletchlings have a "race point" cost of 17? ...if not, he's going to be unhappy (and the other players annoyed by your outclassing them) when you start claiming 50% miss chances all the time and cake-walk the encounters. Unless he either doesn't care or is running 35pt buy, your build is either undercooked or overdone, depending.

I sent him a description of the fetchling before we started play, and cleared it with him before I rolled up my character. Lighting rarely comes up in play. It's just one element of the game we seldom pay much attention to. Either you're standing in bright light, or you're in total darkness. Seldom does it come up, so I doubt it'll be something I abuse much, if ever. I think the biggest contribution to that 17 point fetchling is 5 points for "shadow travel", which I think translates to the ability to planeswalk to the shadow plane at level 13, something that he won't have to worry about for a time. Take that, and the 2 points for a +2 in Kn (The Planes) and you've got a 11 point race, like the dwarf. I still think it's slightly more powerful due to the Med sized, 30 feet of movement, AND Darkvision, plus a bonus to Stealth AND Dex, with great synergy as a ninja, but I've never been accused of power gaming within my circle of gaming friends, so if I start dominating combats, they'll probably look at me and say, "It's about f-in time."


Martryn,

I am playing a brute Ninja in our Skull and Shackles campaign, and having great fun.

Tatsuyo, lvl 5 Angel blooded Aasimar Ninja (Scout)

20 point buy. The Angel Blooded Aasimar gives a bump to both STR and CHA, so the final scores are:

Str 17 (+1 bump at 4th)
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 16

Feats:
Dodge, Iron Will, Weapon Focus: Katana

Tricks:
Vanishing Trick (INCREDIBLE), Combat Trick: Power Attack.

I’m at 5th now, and love playing this character. Sneak attacks absolutely wreck things, especially when double handing a +1 Keen Katana.

Also, I disagree strongly that STR is overdone on your build. A good high STR will keep you hitting, which is critical with the 3/4 BAB Ninja.

A favorite tactic is:

1st turn - Charge, scout sneak attack on charge, swift action vanish at the end of the turn.
2nd turn - sneak attack, vanish.
Repeat for fun and profit and a low likelihood of being hit.

The only concern I have with your build is your ki pool. I intentionally boosted CHA for just this reason. More vanishing trick is a good thing.

I would see if your GM would consider the following home rule. Instead of +1 skill point or +1 hit point, see if your GM will consider +1/4 ki pool ala human monk. If so, this is a great way to get another ki point or two for not a lot of expenditure. At 5th level, I have 6 ki total thanks in part to this and in part thanks to my CHA bonus.

Finally, I am just getting to the point where I am considering Shuriken. Flurry of stars seems like it could have some great synergy with Pressure points if you can get all sneak attacks with them. Attack and suddenly the enemy is down 2, 3 or even 4 STR damage. Not shabby.


tocath wrote:

Martryn,

I am playing a brute Ninja in our Skull and Shackles campaign, and having great fun.

Tatsuyo, lvl 5 Angel blooded Aasimar Ninja (Scout)

20 point buy. The Angel Blooded Aasimar gives a bump to both STR and CHA, so the final scores are:

Oh, and the Aasimar is a bit higher race buy, too, but my GM solved this by dropping the spell like ability. No biggie.


I'm glad to know someone else is playing a similar character at a slightly higher level and is being effective. That's what I wanted to see.

I might take the Extra Ki feat a bit later in my build if I find myself running out too often. I don't think I'm going to overly abuse Vanishing Trick, though, because of the ki limitations. Hopefully the Scout archetype will keep me Sneak Attacking while I maneuver into position. I plan on taking Flurry of Stars sooner rather than later, hoping that when I do get a surprise round and win initiative I can bombard an enemy with tons of shuriken sneak attacks. This is why charging hurler is so important to the build, so I can charge within range of my shuriken during the surprise round, and then follow up with more devastation.

I guess my issue is that there are too many options, and I need to focus on something.


Get the Ultimate Campaign guide and then you will not have to worry about how early feats will be sub-optimal later on, since you can change them out for better ones.

Play what is fun for you now, worry about changing your feats later.


The nice thing about vanishing trick is that between that, scout charge, initiative, and flanking, you can get a sneak attack every round with no difficulty. And if your build is based on SA, using it every round is a good bet.


Quote:
Get the Ultimate Campaign guide and then you will not have to worry about how early feats will be sub-optimal later on, since you can change them out for better ones.

Have it. Know what you're talking about. I'll see if my GM will allow that section.

Quote:
The nice thing about vanishing trick is that between that, scout charge, initiative, and flanking, you can get a sneak attack every round with no difficulty. And if your build is based on SA, using it every round is a good bet.

The character is already built, so I can't up my CHA to get more ki. I will look into buying a CHA item later on, obviously, and might put a +1 into CHA at level 4 to bump it to a 14. I guess I could, like I mentioned, take Extra Ki as a bonus feat to get more ki, but it looks like I'll be strapped for feats as it is.

Shadow Lodge

martryn wrote:
Quote:
BTW, is your GM aware that Fletchlings have a "race point" cost of 17? ...if not, he's going to be unhappy (and the other players annoyed by your outclassing them) when you start claiming 50% miss chances all the time and cake-walk the encounters.
I sent him a description of the fetchling before we started play, and cleared it with him

Your mileage may vary, but I predict trouble down the road once the other players realize what you have, and how much it sucks for their 20pt characters when the GM starts ramping encounters to challenge your 37pt build. (You've basically taken advantage of an inexperienced GM; and that may eventually dawn on him as well.)


Bah... Fetchlings are OKAY. Their racial point buy is higher than most races, but their racial mechanics are far from being too powerful.

I honestly don't think Fetchlings have any significant advantage over other playable races.


With that little ki I would strongly look at a level of shadowdancer for the hide in plain sight ability, which should work with the clarified stealth rules.

Shadow Lodge

Lemmy wrote:
I honestly don't think Fetchlings have any significant advantage over other playable races.

You honestly don't think a 50% miss chance in dim light and Shadow Walk as a supernatural ability at 9th aren't significant advantages?

If I permitted one in my campaign as a 20pt alongside the other CRB races, I'd make the player forfeit the following: *everything* except the bonuses to skills and the two visions (dark- and low-light). (Basically, a "Half-Fletchling".) Even with that nerfing, they'd still be very attractive, given that the bumps to DEX+CHA come without croaking CON or STR and shrinking to size small. (You could make a machinegun paladin who easily papers over his dump-stat WIS score, and outclasses the halfling who typically shines in that role.)


Sir Thugsalot wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
I honestly don't think Fetchlings have any significant advantage over other playable races.
You honestly don't think a 50% miss chance in dim light and Shadow Walk as a supernatural ability at 9th aren't significant advantages?

The extra miss chance is okay, but not incredible. I'd rather have na extra feat or a bonus to my saves (especially for Rogues).

Getting a daily use of a few spell is great , but not OP, IMO. Disguise Self is mediocre, and Plane Shift limited to the Plane of Shadows is not all that great either. Shadow Walk can be really useful, but by the time Fetchlings get it, the party casters have better means of transport anyway. It's not a game breaker. Not to mention those spells help the whole party, they won't make the Fetchling overshadow any other character.

Sir Thugsalot wrote:
If I permitted one in my campaign as a 20pt alongside the other CRB races, I'd make the player forfeit the following: *everything* except the bonuses to skills and the two visions (dark- and low-light). (Basically, a "Half-Fletchling".) Even with that nerfing, they'd still be very attractive, given that the bumps to DEX+CHA come without croaking CON or STR and shrinking to size small. (You could make a machinegun paladin who easily papers over his dump-stat WIS score, and outclasses the halfling who typically shines in that role.)

So it'd go from a supposedly OP race to a considerably UP one? It's basically a "This race has Darkvision. That's it." I'd take a Halfling over your Half-Fetchling any time. Halflings are not even that good of a Paladin. They're not bad, but they don't shine at role any more than humans, half-elves, half-orcs, catfolk or vishkanyas, IMO.

Fetchlings are okay.


martryn wrote:

Hoping for some more feedback...

Playing a Second Darkness campaign. Built a Fetchling Ninja and just hit level 2. I've had an idea for this character for a while, but haven't really penciled it all in yet, as I'm not sure what feats are most useful in what order.

Setim, LE male Fetchling Ninja (Scout) level 2
Str 16
Dex 16
Con 12
Int 12
Wis 8
Cha 13

Improved Init

2 ki points and Vanishing Trick

Martryn,

So interesting topic, I am in a campaign playing as a Tiefling Kensai and my Buddy is a Fletchling Ninja.

To be honest he never seems to get hit, many encounters he will be invisible and the opposition is dead before he acts. however his character is incredibly strong by itself. His main 2 stats are CHA/DEX. He runs High Stealth and CHA for Disguise/Bluff/Intimidate so that he can assassinate in crowds.

Uses weapon finesse to get dex base to hit and ignores strength its not really needed and if your focusing a build off one feat, power attack probably wont get you that far in comparison to other builds that work with your stats and not against. Remember another stat you really kind of want more of is Wisdom because its also part of the skills that you will need to be the parties rogue. By being a ninja you lose some of the bonuses rogue gets for basic things like finding traps.

Btw we are level 6 and not that this is very high but our builds are planned until lvl 20 and each level they get so much stronger it seems OP.

My best recommendation would be to look at your 5 things and after that everything you pick out for feats/skills/other should relate to those.

example.

1. weapon (Katana) if your goal is to use this weapon review what benefits it gets and which feats make it strong.

2. Skills (if your party rogue...) may want to think ahead about how you will be scouting or disabling traps, that sort.

3. Stats (too little) you cant do everything, pick skills and features that tie together your top 2 or 3 stats.

4. Defenses (Ac vs Saves) to me this seems kind of moot. Our ninja has high stealth and disguise in addition to ki point invis. He can get in and out of combat easily removing him from most attacks to begin with. Dont think like a fighter, think how a ninja will go for initial attack or perfect attack in a fight. Play your role dont just be a target on the battlefield. OH DONT FORGET FLETCHLING DEFENSE BONUS IN DARKNESS.

5. Utility (what you bring to table) this in my opinion is the ninjas benefit over other rogues. Because they get Ki points, they are able to pull off some interesting tactics. 1 hint which you may or may not know hidden trick (any trick use - 2 ki points) and ring that reduces cost of tricks by 1 point to a minimum cost of 1. Basically with hidden trick and that ring you get all ninja tricks for 1 point. So yah wow, add your other class features and your build and wow.

Hope that helps, if you message me more i have some more insights.

Shadow Lodge

Lemmy wrote:
Sir Thugsalot wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
I honestly don't think Fetchlings have any significant advantage over other playable races.
You honestly don't think a 50% miss chance in dim light and Shadow Walk as a supernatural ability at 9th aren't significant advantages?
The extra miss chance is okay, but not incredible.

There are a lot of players our there under the impression that blowing three feats on the Crane Style chain is a good deal -- while Fletchings get a 50% miss chance on all attacks if they're in dim (or worse) light, which you can bet will be damn near 100% of the time if they win initiative (something that's likely in a DEX-focused build). Yeah; sign me up for that at no extra cost, please.

Sir Thugsalot wrote:
If I permitted one in my campaign as a 20pt alongside the other CRB races, I'd make the player forfeit the following: *everything* except the bonuses to skills and the two visions (dark- and low-light). (Basically, a "Half-Fletchling".) Even with that nerfing, they'd still be very attractive, given that the bumps to DEX+CHA come without croaking CON or STR and shrinking to size small. (You could make a machinegun paladin who easily papers over his dump-stat WIS score, and outclasses the halfling who typically shines in that role.)
So it'd go from a supposedly OP race to a considerably UP one? It's basically a "This race has Darkvision. That's it." I'd take a Halfling over your Half-Fetchling any time. Halflings are not even that good of a Paladin. They're not bad, but they don't shine at role any more than humans, half-elves, half-orcs, catfolk or vishkanyas, IMO.

A halfling with two levels of rogue and the rest paladin is a bloody slaughter machine versus anything evil with an Oathbow; Sneak-Smite ranged-attacks up the yinyang. Their AC quickly goes from awesome to unhittable; and so long as they manage a STR of 14 with a belt, are no slouches on the odd melee attack with a rapier and Power Attack (picking that up around 7th or so) -- I've played one of those in PFS, and it's frightening effective. Stat the build over the "half-fletching", and all the size penalties disappear (of which being swallowed by medium-sized aberrations is the worst mid-level thread, followed by modest damage until Manyshot). The half-fletching would lose a size bonus to AC and attack, but make up for it with heavy armor and exchanging the two rogue+Finesse levels for bard...or just raw paladin. As a paladin, WIS is your dump stat, so you don't care if it's a little lower.

Lastly, the "half-fletchling" would have Darkvision and low-light vision. That's a pretty good deal.


'Sir Thugsalot' wrote:
There are a lot of players our there under the impression that blowing three feats on the Crane Style chain is a good deal -- while Fletchings get a 50% miss chance on all attacks if they're in dim (or worse) light, which you can bet will be damn near 100% of the time if they win initiative (something that's likely in a DEX-focused build). Yeah; sign me up for that at no extra cost, please.

1- That increased miss chance only matters if the Fetchling has concealment, which is pretty unlikely if the opponent has Darkvision too. And if it doesn't, concealment chance doesn't matter, since the opponent is effectively blind anyway

2- Snake Style is only effective if you fight unarmed and has a good Sense Motive check. Fighting unarmed is a underpowered combat style and Fetchlings lose

'Sir Thugsalot' wrote:
A halfling with two levels of rogue and the rest paladin is a bloody slaughter machine versus anything evil with an Oathbow; Sneak-Smite ranged-attacks up the yinyang. Their AC quickly goes from awesome to unhittable; and so long as they manage a STR of 14 with a belt, are no slouches on the odd melee attack with a rapier and Power Attack (picking that up around 7th or so) -- I've played one of those in PFS, and it's frightening effective. Stat the build over the "half-fletching", and all the size penalties disappear (of which being swallowed by medium-sized aberrations is the worst mid-level thread, followed by modest damage until Manyshot). The half-fletching would lose a size bonus to AC and attack, but make up for it with heavy armor and exchanging the two rogue+Finesse levels for bard...or just raw paladin. As a paladin, WIS is your dump stat, so you don't care if it's a little lower.

Meh... 1d6 of situational extra damage is not worth losing 2 Paladin levels. I'd rather have my Paladin class features. Oathbows are not exclusive to Halflings or Fetchlings. Neither are bonuses to Dex/Cha.

Every Paladin is incredibly effective against evil opponents. You have to screw up your build pretty hard for that not to be the case. I still don't see how Halflings supposedly outclass Catfolk, Vishknaya, Human, Half-Elf or Half-Orc.

'Sir Thugsalot' wrote:
Lastly, the "half-fletchling" would have Darkvision and low-light vision. That's a pretty good deal.

Your half-fetchling is a medium race that gets Low-light vision (which is just okay, IMO), Darkvision (pretty good) and bonus to Stealth and Knowledge(Planes). Neither of which is a class skill for Paladins, and Stealth is not a particularly useful skill for the class, anyway, considering their limited skill points, armor check penalties and aura of good. Knowledge(Planes) requires constant investment to be useful, and Paladins can't afford it with their 2 skill points per level.

Low-Light Vision is not all that good... And a bunch of different races offer Darkvision (it's also not all that incredible, unless your whole party has it and your opponenent doesn't).

I do not doubt that Halflings and Fetchlings make good Paladins and Ninja/Rogue... But you say it like they completely outclass every other race, and I think that's very far from the truth.

Shadow Lodge

Lemmy wrote:
'Sir Thugsalot' wrote:
A halfling with two levels of rogue and the rest paladin is a bloody slaughter machine
Meh... 1d6 of situational extra damage is not worth losing 2 Paladin levels.

It's a good trade for a DEX/CHA-based halfling archer-paladin: Evasion + stealth + perception + UMD'd wand of Heroism = seldom surprised, don;t care about AoE, and lots of hits and 1d6s added to several arrows first round. If UMD and finesse are on the wish list, two levels of rogue save a feat and a trait, and give you a TON of class skills to boot.


If your team has a properly played wizard, then sure!

You will probably be shown up by his simulacrum pit fiend though


Sir Thugsalot wrote:
Lemmy wrote:
'Sir Thugsalot' wrote:
A halfling with two levels of rogue and the rest paladin is a bloody slaughter machine
Meh... 1d6 of situational extra damage is not worth losing 2 Paladin levels.
It's a good trade for a DEX/CHA-based halfling archer-paladin: Evasion + stealth + perception + UMD'd wand of Heroism = seldom surprised, don;t care about AoE, and lots of hits and 1d6s added to several arrows first round. If UMD and finesse are on the wish list, two levels of rogue save a feat and a trait, and give you a TON of class skills to boot.

I'd still rather have those 2 levels of Paladin class features, BAB, saves and caster level. And taking Rogue/Ninja levels are not exclusive to Halfling/Fetchlings either.

I'm not a member of the "Humans are the best race ever!" camp, but IMHO, humans do make the best Paladins because the class is so feat starved and has very few skill points. Half-Elves and Half-Orc as pretty good too. Halfling make good archers and pretty much completely outclass Gnomes, as usual...

Anyway, we're really derailing this thread. We should go back to giving suggestions and advice to the OP.

Shadow Lodge

Humans are "best" only in comparisons in which their LEAST useful feat is considered more valuable than all the racial bennies the other guy is getting.

Humans are strong at first level, but steadily drop to even and then fall behind by mid-levels. (At high level, money can paper over some of the problems.)


Quote:
You've basically taken advantage of an inexperienced GM; and that may eventually dawn on him as well.

I'm not taking advantage of anyone. My GM isn't new and I've been gaming with him on an almost weekly basis for a decade. I had an idea for a fetchling rogue while I was flipping through the Advanced Race Guide, a concept I had from a previous edition that I thought I could finally pull off in Pathfinder. The important part is the fact that it's a fetchling. Take away it's stat increase in CHA and the spell-like abilities and I'd still play one, excepting it'd probably be a rogue and not a ninja.

Quote:


5. Utility (what you bring to table) this in my opinion is the ninjas benefit over other rogues. Because they get Ki points, they are able to pull off some interesting tactics. 1 hint which you may or may not know hidden trick (any trick use - 2 ki points) and ring that reduces cost of tricks by 1 point to a minimum cost of 1. Basically with hidden trick and that ring you get all ninja tricks for 1 point. So yah wow, add your other class features and your build and wow.

Thanks for the feedback. I'm not going to take advantage of the cheesy ring trick, though. I feel like that's pretty cheap and isn't in the spirit of the game. I did know about it before hand, but not only am I not going to take Hidden Trick, I'll likely not pick up one of those rings.

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