"Ignore me!" Problems with an ultra high AC.


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I've gotten around this by custom building the opponents. I use swarms, I attack cmd, use touch attacks, 4 guys aiding 1 guys attacks, or just try building foes with big bonuses to hit by adding class levels (barbarian) and choice templates like half fiend or the like.

Also, I use walls. Pits. Tanglefoot bags. Necklace of fireballs with 1 10 hd fireball. True strike with purple worm poisoned daggers. Monsters with multiple attacks. Last session an eidolon got killed outright by a pouncing fast zombie dire lion (8 attacks at +16 due to haste!).

Overcoming the AC isn't hard, but my job is to not over do it. I still throw stuff at them that lets that AC shine, but they know I've always got something coming, likely later in the round, that can target one of their vulnerabilities.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
That's if you can tell which is scissors and which is rock.
You usually find out real quick when all your attacks miss.

Make up your mind, are they looking from a distance and then deciding to charge in on one of them or are they going for the big AC-tank and changing their mind only after SEVERAL ROUNDS unable to hit?

It's way too damn late to just take a guess on which to attack and only when you find you cannot hit them to try to switch your focus. It's also metagaming as hell for ALL the NPCs to have a psychic realisation that the fighter/cleric cannot be hit so lets go blat the other one who I guess is a wizard.

Remember what OP said, they aren't actually wearing "ignore me!" signs that can be seen from a distance, their AC Arms-Race hasn't made them look that much different, they are only going to be obviously ignorable to EACH NPC that has many successive failures to hit.

If these fighters have got reach and good positioning, they aren't going to be able to get around to get to the Wizard before they are done for. If they all scatter every direction they can make it, but not all trying to close in.


There's a sort of logical fallacy within the "My character missed, so I am going to try to hit someone else after 1 round." Your character, being a martial of some type, should have some reasonable confidence in themselves. If they miss a guy for *one round,* the reaction ought be to double down and try to kill this guy that is clearly a strong combatant and equally gifted in swordplay... not "f@!$ this, hitting the other guy cause clearly this guy is worthless."


Greg.Everham wrote:
There's a sort of logical fallacy within the "My character missed, so I am going to try to hit someone else after 1 round." Your character, being a martial of some type, should have some reasonable confidence in themselves. If they miss a guy for *one round,* the reaction ought be to double down and try to kill this guy that is clearly a strong combatant and equally gifted in swordplay... not "f$&~ this, hitting the other guy cause clearly this guy is worthless."

That argument only flies if characters have no perception of how well they roll. Given that many characters have abilities that allow them to force rerolls, this is almost certainly not the case.

"I threw a blow that should have easily hit, and this guy effortlessly dodged it. Bleh, this is going to take a while. I might try to reach the guys in the back and take them out first so I can double down on this guy in peace" sounds like exactly the sort of thing a competent combatant who wants to live tomorrow would be doing.


Funny how in the thread about skill checks the consensus was that giving characters qualitative information on their roll was problematic and at least implicitly supported by the rules that you don't. But in this thread about attack rolls the consensus seems to be that you must have qualitative knowledge about your roll.


Talos the Talon! wrote:

I've gotten around this by custom building the opponents. I use swarms, I attack cmd, use touch attacks, 4 guys aiding 1 guys attacks, or just try building foes with big bonuses to hit by adding class levels (barbarian) and choice templates like half fiend or the like.

Also, I use walls. Pits. Tanglefoot bags. Necklace of fireballs with 1 10 hd fireball. True strike with purple worm poisoned daggers. Monsters with multiple attacks. Last session an eidolon got killed outright by a pouncing fast zombie dire lion (8 attacks at +16 due to haste!).

Overcoming the AC isn't hard, but my job is to not over do it. I still throw stuff at them that lets that AC shine, but they know I've always got something coming, likely later in the round, that can target one of their vulnerabilities.

[furiously takes notes]

What I also found worked if I wanted effective mobs who didn't need expensive magic items was to craft NPCs with extremely high dex and arm them with crossbows. I actually had to scale them back they got so good as even HD4 goons with rapid-shot could get off two shots each they were wiping out my party of munchkins. It was only raw crossbow damage but they were hitting at such a rate.It didn't matter I had to dump almost every stat except Dex, their AC was high their hit rate was high, crossbows are insensitive to low strength. Others I gave Bullseye Shot, HD4 mobs with point-buy-1 were able to shoot with a +14, 25% of the time they could beat AC30.

But as I said, when you actually deploy this it doesn't go down well. The fighters didn't get high AC just to be hit anyway, I feel I still need to give them the impression that their investments in AC have gotten them something.

I'm reminded of all these RPG games that have really in depth ways to boost defences and damage rolls... only to have enemy hit-rate and HP scale by almost the exact same amount! This supposed RPG where my character was changing, wasn't changing, he was having the same hit rate and hits to kill as level 1, effectively it had all the RPG scaling of Halo! A "plus one minus one" game is a zero change game. Well, I suppose the enemies only being able to use base-crossbow damage and dumping every other stat to be totally useless if you ever get close to them is getting something.

I love your idea of multiple Aid Another attempts, the AC the fighter invested in grants them a new way of fighting where you instead must deal with a flurry of prodding jabs trying to knock you off your balance before a single terrible blow, the focus in on avoiding the last nasty blow. Giving your NPCs the trait "Aid Allies" should make this even more effective, with three successful aid-another jabs then the 4th has a +9 bonus to hit on top of flanking bonuses. Wise Teacher trait is even more potent with +4 bonus with each successful Aid-Another check which stacks. Flanking teamwork feats have powerful synergy here.

I'd recommend flanking feats that give flanking bonus without being on opposite sides:
(1) it shuts down arguments on what's considered an opposite side,
(2) it means the flank bonuses come more reliably which helps consistency for GM planning
(3) it leads to more enemy bunching, good if you want to have cleave not go un-wasted
(4) Bunching all on one side also doesn't shut down paper mages who can still land an area of effect to hit all mooks without hitting fighter
(5) the fighter actually has a viable escape route if things get REALLY bad
(6) the NPCs have a lot of soft cover from any archers in the backfield so archer is encouraged to deal with other things

Alchemical Fire is also a good one since it's a low-cost way to get touch attacks to deal 1d6 fire damage. Touch attacks are generally good items to deploy as they do more to level the playing field. Fighter and paper-mage tend to have much the same touch AC as they use similar buffs to non-armour AC. Alchem fire is especially good if you combine it with the feat Opening Volley, so the enemy mooks burst out from hidden positions, fanning around with their +1 BAB drawing alchem fire, throwing it, then they each charge with a +2, +4 from Opening Volley and many will have +2 from flanking as well.

But it wouldn't be easy, the fighter would have plenty of time to stop herself being surrounded and overwhelmed. But that isn't a bad thing, that's how you make a good game, lots of dynamic actions, choices and downsides. The fighter will have to really stop and think before they do things and not so willingly charge into things.

This would also help the paper-mages since if the NPCs have invested feats into being flankers then in order to succeed they must pour as many BGs as possible on an AC tank to stand a chance of bringing them down.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
Make up your mind, are they looking from a distance and then deciding to charge in on one of them or are they going for the big AC-tank and changing their mind only after SEVERAL ROUNDS unable to hit?

What are you rambling about? I've been very clear that enemies will move on to easier targets when they realize they can't hit the tank. I never said how long it would take. Sometimes it takes one attack, sometimes more. My Holy Vindicator specifically works to extend that time with his armor. The enemy sees a dwarf in clerics robes and a buckler casting spells and thinks he hasn't invested in AC. Then their attacks clang on his robes and they realize his AC is around 40. I didn't think I would need to spell it out for a necrothread like this one.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
Make up your mind, are they looking from a distance and then deciding to charge in on one of them or are they going for the big AC-tank and changing their mind only after SEVERAL ROUNDS unable to hit?
What are you rambling about? I've been very clear that enemies will move on to easier targets when they realize they can't hit the tank. I never said how long it would take. Sometimes it takes one attack, sometimes more. My Holy Vindicator specifically works to extend that time with his armor. The enemy sees a dwarf in clerics robes and a buckler casting spells and thinks he hasn't invested in AC. Then their attacks clang on his robes and they realize his AC is around 40. I didn't think I would need to spell it out for a necrothread like this one.

Hooookaythen.

Sorry for not keeping track of everyone's stance on this, there seem to be several different sides to this.

There's a big difference between being able to realise "that's their paper mage, hugely powerful yet easy to hit, lets gank him" and on the other hand "HOLY MOLY! This guy is UNTOUCHABLE! I mean he looked easy but he's not... lets try to hit one of the other guys who looks easy but maybe isn't"

Though that's all banking on someone seeming to be an easy target but actually isn't, AC40 is REALLY high. something like:

THIS:
10 +9(Full Plate) +1(armour enhance) +1(Jingasa) +1(Fate's Favoured) +1(Defender of Society) +4(Tower Shield) +2(shield Enhance) +1(Shield Focus) +1(Dodge) +4(Dex) +2(Ring of Protection) +2(Amulet of natural armour) +1(Dusty rose iuon stone)
=AC40

The tower shield and heavy armour and such high dex only possible thanks to them being a FIGHTER and that Armour Training bonus.
-----END SPOILER------

But that's going with a tower shield that means you can't have proper reach (lunge doesn't give reach on your enemies go) and don't get particularly good attacks, -2 on each hit. That's not simply a buckler and some discrete armour under Cleric's clothes. Even if cleric could get all that (not cheaply or easily) they would obviously look really well armoured.

Yet even a crazy setup granting AC40 it is still possible for even a group of Point Buy Zero HD4 mooks to deal with... using the right feats, traits and tactics. Traits give flanking bonus of +3 (rather than +2) Wise Teacher Trait also gives a +4 from Aid Another rather than +2. So three NPCs make Aid Another checks for a bonus of +12+3 to the 4th NPC to attack, they hit on a 16-20 roll. Aid another attempts only fail on rolling a natural-1 so around 22% hit rate every round. Not bad for only 4 weak ass mooks with sharp stick.

Pilum can be damn good, though it needs a full hit to work this can be fairly reliably achieved using True Strike (from potion or a buffing sorcerer) when it hits all bonuses related to the shield are lost. This is a freaking disaster in close quarters as they need a free hand to pull the Pilum free, so they must drop whatever weapon is in their non-shield hand then somehow pick it up again without provoking a barrage. 7AC is basically gone. Ditto for CM to sunder the shield, quite easy as the mooks can have reach and the Tower-Shield dude won't.

Also their touch AC is not that good, they can be hit with things like Alchemical Fire which can invoke Opening Volley feat. AC40 can be seriously threatened even by a motley band of impoverished desperadoes. Because the GM can have them do something that PCs almost never do due to special snowflake syndrome and that is to agree to work together as a teach, to combine their meagre resources and abilities to stand a fighting chance.

One thing I've had on the back burner is a little imp character who has invested in whip proficiency and weapon finesse to spam Dirty Trick blind acting on the end of the NPC's go so every time. Blind leaves them with an AC penalty as bad as losing their shield. A sorcerer can also use Mud-ball spam to much the same effect. Blinded and de-shielded they can be hit about 35% of the time by regular mook attacks. So much for AC40 is hopeless and you should just give up.

You know what's what I think is really smashing about this setup, at base they've only got a +9 to hit and deal 1d8+6 damage. Their will save is abysmal. If ONE of them has an obvious chance to attack a Wizard PC who has let his guard down then it's not going to be insta-death for the wizard. They have a fighting chance.

That's what I hear a lot of people complaining over, how can I have one enemy who is enough of a challenge to my super-high-AC fighter but isn't a 95% probably insta-death for the party's paper mage?

You use the things that I and Talos the Talon! have suggested, instead of having one super foe use multiple weak foes in such cooperative combinations to get a a high enough roll to hit.

Oh yeah, and it's up to the Paper mage to think of ways to not draw attention. There's 1001 ways to avoid that.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

You can get a feel for what I'm talking about here. Kurik is my paladin without paladin levels, and while he has some weaknesses, they aren't quite so easy to exploit. He should probably pick up Blind Fight to help against being blinded. But Dirty Trick isn't likely to be assured considering his CMD.


If the tank is effective then enemies will have no choice to try and attack it no matter how high the AC. It is still terrible strategy to ignore the guy with high AC if that guy is tearing things up. Unless there's a caster too, in which case the caster taking on the guy with the AC is not an unusual strategy.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

My tank usually stands there to draw the initial attacks and lets my wife's archer do the damage. (Even if they get to her, she's a fighter in full plate as well and doesn't provoke when firing.)

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

I was wondering where that huge sacred bonus to AC was coming from. Very last item. Only good for 1 hit, and that hit could be a touch attack. It doesn't say 'until damaged', after all. Excellent defense against a surprise attack, however.

But yeah, that's a monster of a dwarf! And of course, gotta love that travel domain.

==Aelryinth

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

As for opponents not knowing if they hurt you:

I can drive my sword through a tree, it just bounced off this guy's armor!
His shield is freaking everywhere!
That was my BEST move, and I didn't even scratch his cheek!
Gorum, he's parried everything I sent at him!
What's his skin made of, iron?!?
I've ripped an ogre off his feet with that hit, and this guy looks like I was giving him a friendly tap!
It's like trying to hit the wind!
I got my claws on him, I'm gnawing on his throat, and I still haven't drawn blood?
There's four of us wolf packing him, and nobody has blood on their spears yet?

It's not a case of hit or dodge...it's if they HURT you. Remember, they are actually hitting you if it smacks into your armor, shield, or Nat AC. It just doesn't DO anything, it bounces.

So yeah, people know how well they roll, just like you do. They did everything right and perfect with great timing...and it was useless.

Only an idiot doesn't change tactics at that point.

==Aelryinth


The kobold fighter in my Runelords game routinely had an AC high enough that even 'boss' critters needed a 20 to hit him. After failing to score a hit for a few rounds, they'd shift tactics to combat maneuvers (sundering his shield, bull rushing him, trying to disarm him), or switch to a softer target. It's obvious to the players if they're failing to do damage (even DR calls that out), no reason it shouldn't be obvious to the NPCs.

As for 'threat', sure, the guy in platemail is injuring you, but so is the rogue in leather armor who's stabbing you in the back and the archer filling you full of arrows. Killing them could let you live long enough to whittle down the tin can. If your tank is mediocre at stabbing people and has no other ways of keeping their attention (combat maneuvers, etc.), they shouldn't be too surprised if they don't hold attention over someone who's dealing out more damage.


TriOmegaZero wrote:
You can get a feel for what I'm talking about here. Kurik is my paladin without paladin levels, and while he has some weaknesses, they aren't quite so easy to exploit. He should probably pick up Blind Fight to help against being blinded. But Dirty Trick isn't likely to be assured considering his CMD.

Aid-Another only ever has to beat AC10 regardless of your AC, of course. They will only fail Aid Another checks on a natural-1. Four guys (each about CR2) working as a team can land a hit 30% of the time. Your Touch AC is not that high so you are vulnerable to things like Alchem Fire and other low-cost touch attacks. I should note that Mud-ball doesn't grant a save until the beginning of your next turn so it effectively guarantees a blind if the NPC caster hold their turn to act just before the mooks.

So I put it to you that your character is easy enough to exploit, 30% hit rate is good enough to make fights interesting. As it's easy to arm NPCs with reach weapons and you don't have them then they can make disarm checks with impunity. Or worse, sunder, Lucerne Hammer has +2 to sunder attempts. Your Sacred bonus is in your shield right? Your character is hugely vulnerable to having their shield damaged or destroyed. That's what fights are now about, they aren't going after your HP, they are sundering to wreck your AC buffs. There you go, there is the challenge some thought was lost.

This is reason enough to refute the idea that NPCs have no choice but to give up trying to hit a high-AC character.

This is reason enough to refute the idea that NPCs must be made so individually powerful to challenge a high-AC melee combatant that the Paper-Mages stand no chance against any individual.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Aelryinth wrote:

But yeah, that's a monster of a dwarf! And of course, gotta love that travel domain.

==Aelryinth

It's a wonderful option for your 20ft movement races. The Defense subdomain is the big one for Barkskin in a domain slot.

Shadow Lodge

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:

This is reason enough to refute the idea that NPCs have no choice but to give up trying to hit a high-AC character.

This is reason enough to refute the idea that NPCs must be made so individually powerful to challenge a high-AC melee combatant that the Paper-Mages stand no chance against any individual.

Your coming up with tactics based on my characters stats is not a valid argument against ignoring high AC opponents. Most opponents will not know to exploit these specific weaknesses unless they have prior knowledge of the character. And if they are wasting their time on my equipment, my team has won the action economy war.

The second argument is not against anything I have suggested, so I do not see any reason to discuss it.


TOZ wrote:
Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:

This is reason enough to refute the idea that NPCs have no choice but to give up trying to hit a high-AC character.

This is reason enough to refute the idea that NPCs must be made so individually powerful to challenge a high-AC melee combatant that the Paper-Mages stand no chance against any individual.

Your coming up with tactics based on my characters stats is not a valid argument against ignoring high AC opponents. Most opponents will not know to exploit these specific weaknesses unless they have prior knowledge of the character. And if they are wasting their time on my equipment, my team has won the action economy war.

The second argument is not against anything I have suggested, so I do not see any reason to discuss it.

(Hang on a minute... TOZ... TriOmegaZero? Are you the same person? It's going to be hard to keep this going if you are going to try to keep on with "my character" I don't know if you are someone else talking about something else.)

The argument for ignoring high AC opponents is that there is a lack of valid tactics.

I have presented valid tactics.

"Most opponents will not know to exploit these specific weaknesses unless they have prior knowledge of the character."

These aren't specific to weaknesses of your character, this is specific to the strength of your character, the generally high AC. Which cannot be kept such a secret if you really are adventurers. Aid Another works on anyone. It is something generally true that highly armoured and shielded individuals tend to have much lower touch AC.

"And if they are wasting their time on my equipment, my team has won the action economy war. "

They may very well have time to waste, or in this case, time to invest giving you a profound material detriment. Or at least trying to. Hey, it's okay if they lose, that's kinda the idea, the idea is that the party wins. Pathfinder games aren't supposed to be statistically impossible to finish, you are supposed to have an overall advantage. The question was over what could NPCs do that was WORTHWHILE against such high-AC player character. Well you now have that answer. They don't HAVE to ignore the fighters and pick on the Paper-Mage despite all a paper-mage might have done to seem inconspicuous.

The only issue seems to be over whether they could actually come to this conclusion, I see this as a dilemma that always leads to the same outcome:

If NPCs are aware of their rolls then they can know how to adjust as per flanking and aid another and aiming to sunder, etc

If NPCs are UNAWARE of their rolls then how do they know they aren't just getting unlucky? They keep attacking with futility.

Either way, NPCs don't ignore the (armoured) elephant in the room, they keep going after him.

"The second argument is not against anything I have suggested, so I do not see any reason to discuss it."

It is fairly on-topic for what this thread is, though I'm not entirely sure what you are referring to, the "make individual NPCs super powerful" argument???

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

I would be highly skeptical of NPCs that do not attempt to gain mechanical advantage over my PC with flanking and the like. Multiple opponents and the like are certain to increase the challenge of a fight, but that rather immaterial to the original discussion. We've had to add specialization to an enemy's repertoire and extra support, to overcome the fact that most encounters are with one strong opponent who is not going to waste time attacking a high AC target when low AC targets are available, barring low or no Int scores.

It occurs to me that you are thinking that I am dismissing tactics completely, which is the opposite of what I am doing. I am speaking to the general response to a high AC target. You favor altering tactics to suit the target, and I am favoring altering targets to a more suitable victim.

Shadow Lodge

Alex Trebek's Stunt Double wrote:
(Hang on a minute... TOZ... TriOmegaZero? Are you the same person? It's going to be hard to keep this going if you are going to try to keep on with "my character" I don't know if you are someone else talking about something else.)

It's a quirk of mine. You can see whose alias a name is by hovering the mouse pointer over their username.


TriOmegaZero wrote:

I would be highly skeptical of NPCs that do not attempt to gain mechanical advantage over my PC with flanking and the like. Multiple opponents and the like are certain to increase the challenge of a fight, but that rather immaterial to the original discussion. We've had to add specialization to an enemy's repertoire and extra support, to overcome the fact that most encounters are with one strong opponent who is not going to waste time attacking a high AC target when low AC targets are available, barring low or no Int scores.

It occurs to me that you are thinking that I am dismissing tactics completely, which is the opposite of what I am doing. I am speaking to the general response to a high AC target. You favor altering tactics to suit the target, and I am favoring altering targets to a more suitable victim.

I hope you take in precisely HOW MUCH multiple opponents can increase the challenge of a fight, I did do a breakdown of how it's changed from needing a natural-20 to hit to a 25% hit rate even against a steady AC40 player character. Lets not forget that the original discussion was "there's no way to hit this guys except with natural-20 and that's not good enough" and I presented what IS good enough. Hitting on a 16+ is a very good challenge rate. It's worth going for them. And remember, this is only building on any NPC with a measly +9 to hit.

What I've suggested is not actually that specialized, it is a scalable tactic for dealing with all sorts of threats though against relatively moderate AC threats they'd only need one assisting ally. But overkill is under-rated, if they worked as a group of 4 they could near guarantee success against fairly-tough opponents and stand a fighting chance against even the toughest conceivable foes.

"to overcome the fact that most encounters are with one strong opponent who is not going to waste time attacking a high AC target when low AC targets are available, barring low or no Int scores."

And while it may be a "fact" for your campaign that most encounters are with one strong opponent that isn't actually a fact of Pathfinder. GMs can use any sort of threat they think is best. Multiple threats can be better for making good use of invested feats like cleave and combat reflexes.

Noticing other tempting targets wouldn't really be an Int thing that would be a sense motive, or perception or something like that to realise that such an option is viable.

Now as far as I am concerned I have conclusively solved the problem of AC being too high, because I have explicitly laid out ways a GM can legally and reasonably have even D-Grade mooks can attack AC40 PCs without it being a waste. 25% hit rate is not a waste of time. So if they are going to stop attacking the fighter it's not going to be because they CAN'T hit him.

Where we are now going is off topic.

The topic was "I CAN'T hit them except on a natural 20" to "I can hit fighters at a decent rate, but Paper-mages are such better targets."

This is where it gets pretty dynamic because the more the low AC support classes are targeted the more they are going to do to avoid that. Things casters can do to stop being considered a caster, there's so many tricks. It all depends on what rumours are spreading and what they look like when combat begins. Realise, it's extremely obvious who is a fighter, they are wearing a buttload of armour and have a huge melee weapon but casters don't look like anyone in particular, it's a heck of a perception check to notice their spell component pouch and identify it, also can wear Mock Armor (90gp) to appear like they are incapable of being arcane casters, combine with lack of visible holy symbol in being a Divine caster why would they attack them?

It makes a lot of sense if they start casting spells in the open, it's pretty obvious who is casting a spell and if they are casing a summoning spell which is usually a 1 round action that's an obvious impetus to gank them. But what if they cast Vanish or Invisibility then they will stay almost completely undetectable till they cast a directly offensive spell, even obscuring mist can give all the cover needed to cast long difficult spells like

It's a very dynamic thing, which one will they go for? It could go any which way. I don't think it's so absolutely set in stone as you make it out to be, while other's AC may possibly be lower it might not and they might not be as easy to get to. You say they are "not going to waste time attacking a high AC target" I say they aren't going to waste their time trying hopelessly to get around a reach fighter while both the archer and fighter are wailing on them but he won't go for the fighter who is within easy reach. Things can change if a wizard uses the spell Stone Call to create a huge area of difficult terrain that the archer is on the other side of.


I think some people are losing sight of the problem.

The problem isn't "How do I hit the high-AC guy?" The problem is "How can the high-AC guy get enemies to attack him instead of the squishies?" That is, he didn't mind them having high-AC, but he wanted to have a reason intelligent enemies would continue attacking the meatshield instead of the wizard.

The fake armor someone linked earlier isn't a bad choice. Glamored armor to make the high-AC guy look easy to hit would work as well.

If I were DMing, I'd just houserule in a feat to let them either do more damage to someone who's attacked their buddy (maybe have them designate a "ward" they're guarding) or let them get opportunity attacks on an enemy when they attack someone else. Something that says "Pay attention to me, thou evil jerkwad!" It would be easy enough to justify in character. "I get super angry when someone hits the person I'm protecting!" or "I take advantage of the fact that he's focusing on Melgrim the Incandescent instead of me!"


Snowblind wrote:


That argument only flies if characters have no perception of how well they roll. Given that many characters have abilities that allow them to force rerolls, this is almost certainly not the case.

I take most of those to be fairly metagamey abilities - they represent the PCs better "luck" but they are invoked by the player to fit their narrative preferences rather than explicitly evoked by the PC.


Aelryinth wrote:

As for opponents not knowing if they hurt you:

I can drive my sword through a tree, it just bounced off this guy's armor!
His shield is freaking everywhere!
That was my BEST move, and I didn't even scratch his cheek!
Gorum, he's parried everything I sent at him!
What's his skin made of, iron?!?
I've ripped an ogre off his feet with that hit, and this guy looks like I was giving him a friendly tap!
It's like trying to hit the wind!
I got my claws on him, I'm gnawing on his throat, and I still haven't drawn blood?
There's four of us wolf packing him, and nobody has blood on their spears yet?

<snip>
Only an idiot doesn't change tactics at that point.

The question is: when does "at that point" occur? Some of the statements above suggest multiple attempts.


I am fond of the Warder class, which removes "ignore me" from being a sound tactical option for enemies.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Gambit wrote:
I am fond of the Warder class, which removes "ignore me" from being a sound tactical option for enemies.

I was going to note the Warder as well. There aren't really any good "marking" mechanics in core PF (I think the Cavalier's challenge has a few decent options depending on your Order), but such a mechanic is pretty necessary if a tanky but comparatively low threat character is going to serve their purpose.


Jack Mann wrote:

I think some people are losing sight of the problem.

The problem isn't "How do I hit the high-AC guy?" The problem is "How can the high-AC guy get enemies to attack him instead of the squishies?" That is, he didn't mind them having high-AC, but he wanted to have a reason intelligent enemies would continue attacking the meatshield instead of the wizard.

I've had good luck with maneuvers. In a previous game, I had a fighter who was good at grappling and shield bash/bull rush. Hard to ignore someone who's immobilizing you and keeping you from using both hands. Same goes for trip. The -4 to hit and melee AC while prone is a good incentive to take out the person keeping you on the ground.

If you have trouble keeping them on you, you could somewhat bypass the problem with feats like Saving Shield and Bodyguard. Bull Rush works for knocking them more than 5' from the squishy people in your party so they can't get their iterative attacks.

The point, after all, is to keep your ally from getting hit as much as possible; there's nothing that says you can only accomplish that goal by getting people to attack you directly.


Jack Mann wrote:

I think some people are losing sight of the problem.

The problem isn't "How do I hit the high-AC guy?" The problem is "How can the high-AC guy get enemies to attack him instead of the squishies?" That is, he didn't mind them having high-AC, but he wanted to have a reason intelligent enemies would continue attacking the meatshield instead of the wizard.

The fake armor someone linked earlier isn't a bad choice. Glamored armor to make the high-AC guy look easy to hit would work as well.

If I were DMing, I'd just houserule in a feat to let them either do more damage to someone who's attacked their buddy (maybe have them designate a "ward" they're guarding) or let them get opportunity attacks on an enemy when they attack someone else. Something that says "Pay attention to me, thou evil jerkwad!" It would be easy enough to justify in character. "I get super angry when someone hits the person I'm protecting!" or "I take advantage of the fact that he's focusing on Melgrim the Incandescent instead of me!"

I see the two issues as inherently related. Why? Because OP said that the reason they weren't being attacked was their high AC. OP opened this complaining about hopelessly high AC and using that as a reason for them to ignore the meatshield.

A reach fighter can do a very good job of shielding a paper-mage under their threatened area, especially if this is combined with a potion of Enlarge Person. A potion of enlarge person is way better as potions always take effect immediately after imbibed regardless of the actual spell's casting time and Enlarge Person has a 1-round casting time. There's your attacks of opportunity as it creates a huge wide and deep threatened area that they have to get through.

Also the feat "cut from the air" is great as allows you to attack incoming projectiles as if they provoked attacks of opportunity.

All this should buy enough time for the Paper-mage to do his own job. We are generally talking about very high level here, something like Level 11 to 13. So Wizard has buttloads of spells on tap and super powerful high level spells, easily enough time to call down all manner of hell onto them, either area denials, immunities, summons or direct blasting. Remember, sticking close to a reach fighter with combat reflexes no one can charge at you without going through his spear first.

The main problem wizard has is getting jumped before they can begin to get their spells out, Fighter just has to buy the party's paper mage some time. And if they are going for the fighter first and giving up only when AC seems too hard then fighter has achieved in wasting their time.

One thing that is going to oblige the mobs to attack the fighter is if the Wizard goes invisible in the first round. As long as the wizard sticks to casting spells that aren't directly harmful such a summons, area denial, party buffs and so on then they will remain invisible. Hell, at CL10 they can use Vanish spell as it will have a long enough duration. The wizard can also stick the archer on a floating disk and drag the archer around with him keeping the archer out of danger as he gets out full attacks. But generally archers are fighters, and should have armour training AND be high dex, their AC should be as high or higher than the reach fighter. They should also have snap-shot and point-blank-master so can defend themselves if it gets really hairy in close quarters.

If you want still more protection while travelling, consider mounts, they disproportionately aid casters who are granted mobility on top of their rounds spent casting and can fight off attempts. if you don't want to be endlessly surprised then a trained hawk to fly high above and ahead of you see the tricks in the Handle Animal page that you can have others train for you. They can both spot enemy forces and "tag" them by bombarding them with splash-weapons to show you where to hit.

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