I did try to find something about this combination of feats, but most of the discussions are talking about monks and flurry of blows. My question does not pertain to flurry of blows, and just the normal number of attacks.
Here are my Feats:
Improved Unarmed Strike
Feral Combat Training
Two-Weapon Fighting
Catfolk Exemplar: 1d6 claws
Improved Two-weapon fighting
I obtained Weapon Focus as a class feature.
Does Feral Combat Training allow Two-Weapon Fighting and Improved Two-Weapon Fighting to be applied to Natural Weapons?
No. Natural weapons are not manufactured weapons. They never are.
You cannot use TWF/ITWF with natural weapons.
Options are: Attack with natural weapons only. Secondary nat weapons are at -5.
Attack with manufactured weapons, TWF/ITWF as normal.
Attack with manufactured and natural weapons. TWF/ITWF can work on manufactured. Nat weapons are all treated as secondary (-5 and 1/2 str) assuming you didn't use the limb it is on for a manufactured weapon attack.
No. Natural weapons are not manufactured weapons. They never are.
You cannot use TWF/ITWF with natural weapons.
Options are: Attack with natural weapons only. Secondary nat weapons are at -5.
Attack with manufactured weapons, TWF/ITWF as normal.
Attack with manufactured and natural weapons. TWF/ITWF can work on manufactured. Nat weapons are all treated as secondary (-5 and 1/2 str) assuming you didn't use the limb it is on for a manufactured weapon attack.
Feral Combat Training allows effects that would be added to your unarmed strikes to be added to your natural weapons. TWF and ITWF affect unarmed strikes. Unarmed strikes are treated as light weapons.
From Two-Weapon Fighting:
"Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. See Two-Weapon Fighting.
Normal: If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light."
An unarmed strike is considered a light weapon. With improved Unarmed strike, I am treated as having weapons in hand.
Edit: I am treated as being armed even when unarmed to use exact terms.
Not quite, quote the benefit instead of paraphrasing.
Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike.
TWF does not have IUS as a prerequisite. Nor does it augment an unarmed strike.
Your full attack (assuming you have bab 6 and str 10) would be: Unarmed strike 4/Unarmed Strike 4(This is from TWF)/Unarmed strike -1/Unarmed Strike -1(This is from ITWF)/Right Claw 1/Left Claw 1
What you cannot do is: Right Claw 4/Left Claw 4/Left Claw 4(TWF)/Left Claw -1(ITWF).
Why would the Claw only be 1?
If you make natural attacks in conjunction with unarmed strikes or weapons, they are all treated as secondary weapons. As a result, they get a -5 on the attack, and use 1/2 str damage.
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If I'm understanding the OP correctly the real question being asked is can you use a natural weapon as a normal weapon to get iterative attacks out of it.
The justification being used is that the latest faq update says you CAN use two weapon fighting with unarmed strikes.
Previously the answer was a solid no you can't but with the faq update it becomes a LOT less certain especially if the character in question has any levels in monk.
You've always been able to use two weapon fighting with unarmed strikes.
You can never get iterative attacks with natural weapons.
Feral combat training does not make TWF suddenly improve IUS, and thus natural attacks can't benefit from TWF via feral combat training.
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The assumption was that you could TWF with unarmed strikes, the faq update solidly confirmed it.
Natural attacks DO have their own mechanics for use BUT they have also been solidly confirmed that they should be treated as normal weapons for most purposes now.
The OP is simply asking whether the ability to use them like normal manufactured weapons to use their iterative attacks (and the greater penalties that come with that).
THAT is an unclear question since in at least one case natural weapons CAN be used with TWF (monk unarmed strikes are considered natural attacks and the Devs have specifically stated flurry of blows works exactly like TWF).
Personally I don't believe this works but there is enough vagaries in the rules now that the question can be asked.
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It was not an assumption, it was clear TWF worked with unarmed strikes.
Natural attacks are not treated "as normal weapons for most purposes". Here is the bit from the core book:
Natural Attacks: Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites, are melee attacks that can be made against any creature within your reach (usually 5 feet). These attacks are made using your full attack bonus and deal an amount of damage that depends on their type (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks). If you possess only one natural attack (such as a bite—two claw attacks do not qualify), you add 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage rolls made with that attack.
Some natural attacks are denoted as secondary natural attacks, such as tails and wings. Attacks with secondary natural attacks are made using your base attack bonus minus 5. These attacks deal an amount of damage depending on their type, but you only add half your Strength modifier on damage rolls.
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.
You can never use your iterative attacks with a natural weapon. That is not unclear, it is stated explicitly.
Monk unarmed strikes are: "A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons."
Spells or effects. It is not actually a natural weapon. It is a bad example.
An easy way to solve this problem is to make sure you have the claws trait and buy some claw blades as equipment. It turns your claws into light weapons and solves all the problems of two weapon fighting and feats not working with natural weapons. It doesn't help with the question of the feral combat and unarmed strike feats, or the use of monk abilities since they are not monk weapons, but it would open up at least one more feat you can use elsewhere.
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It was not an assumption, it was clear TWF worked with unarmed strikes.
Natural attacks are not treated "as normal weapons for most purposes". Here is the bit from the core book:
Natural Attacks: Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites, are melee attacks that can be made against any creature within your reach (usually 5 feet). These attacks are made using your full attack bonus and deal an amount of damage that depends on their type (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). You do not receive additional natural attacks for a high base attack bonus. Instead, you receive additional attack rolls for multiple limb and body parts capable of making the attack (as noted by the race or ability that grants the attacks). If you possess only one natural attack (such as a bite—two claw attacks do not qualify), you add 1–1/2 times your Strength bonus on damage rolls made with that attack.
Some natural attacks are denoted as secondary natural attacks, such as tails and wings. Attacks with secondary natural attacks are made using your base attack bonus minus 5. These attacks deal an amount of damage depending on their type, but you only add half your Strength modifier on damage rolls.
You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack. For example, you cannot make a claw attack and also use that hand to make attacks with a longsword. When you make additional attacks in this way, all of your natural attacks are treated as secondary natural attacks, using your base attack bonus minus 5 and adding only 1/2 of your Strength modifier on damage rolls. Feats such as Two-Weapon Fighting and Multiattack can reduce these penalties.
You can never use your iterative attacks with a natural weapon. That is not unclear, it is stated explicitly.
Monk unarmed strikes are: "A monk's unarmed strike is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the...
Not quite, natural ATTACKS refers to the mechanics used to determine Hits and Damage.
Natural WEAPONS refers to the weapons that can use the natural attack mechanics. Re-read your quoted line again and you'll see that these are two totally different subjects.The OP is asking about using the weapons but using the OTHER weapon attack mechanics.
@Stormhammer, That would easily resolve the OP's request and lend strong support to you NOT being able to use natural weapons for your iterative attacks.
(Completely forgot about the claw blades since I hate catfolk and their racial gear)
Not quite, natural ATTACKS refers to the mechanics used to determine Hits and Damage.
Natural WEAPONS refers to the weapons that can use the natural attack mechanics. Re-read your quoted line again and you'll see that these are two totally different subjects.
I'm not sure what you are saying here. Natural attacks are attacks made with a natural weapon.
You can't make additional natural attacks from increased bab. If you are attacking with a natural weapon, that is a natural attack. You can not get additional attacks from BAB, for a natural weapon. Period.
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Not quite, natural ATTACKS refers to the mechanics used to determine Hits and Damage.
Natural WEAPONS refers to the weapons that can use the natural attack mechanics. Re-read your quoted line again and you'll see that these are two totally different subjects.I'm not sure what you are saying here. Natural attacks are attacks made with a natural weapon.
You can't make additional natural attacks from increased bab. If you are attacking with a natural weapon, that is a natural attack. You can not get additional attacks from BAB, for a natural weapon. Period.
What I'm saying is Natural attacks are a set of rules that determine how some weapons determine success or failure of attack rolls, how certain bonuses or penalties are added to damage and how those specific weapons interact with other specific weapons in the game. Period.
Natural weapons are a subset of items in the game that specific PC/NPC's use that allow them to make use of the Natural Attack rules.
Natural weapons are ITEMS, distinct physical objects that can be manipulated or targeted. Natural ATTACKS are immaterial rules that do not have a physical presence. Natural attacks are just a means of determining whether your attempt to affect one physical object (the Target) with another physical object (the natural weapon) succeeds or not.
The OP's question was since there are two separate rulesets for determining the outcome can you choose which set of rules you use?
In this specific case the answer is no but that is only because there is an official rule that says to use catfolk claws as something other than a natural weapon you need to use this item (cat's Blades).
This rule however is specific only to Catfolk and their claw attacks, the item in question is specific in saying it ONLY works on catfolk and their claws. Other natural attacks do not have any official rules saying no but the existence of the Cat's claws item does push the probability towards the negative as well.
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Natural attacks are how to resolve attacks made using a natural weapon.
Natural weapons are not an item. You can't buy them. They are granted by the creature you are, or by a class ability/feat.
There are not two separate rulesets. If you attack with a natural weapon, it uses the natural attacks rules. You don't get to decide.
This is true for catfolk, clawed tengu, half-orcs with bite attacks, alchemists with claws, beast totem barbarians, sorcerers who grow claws, eidolons or any other creature/monster that has natural attacks.
In fact, eidolons might be your best bet to see all the discussion about manufactured vs natural weapons, and how they interact.
The claw blades is an item, that changes the cat claws from a natural weapon to a manufactured weapon. As far as I know, this is the only such item that does this. So catfolk are the only ones who could possibly TWF with claw blades.
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Actually you CAN buy natural weapons, Helm of the Mammoth Lords is an official item that if you purchase it you are given a natural attack. So is the Cloak of the Manta Ray, the Tentacle cloak, etc. Where you get them however doesn't matter, the fact that when you get them you are given a physical object to interact with is.
HOW you can use that physical object is what is being questioned here.
There ARE two separate rulesets, the rules you follow for using natural attacks and the rules you follow for using iterative attacks. Two completely different set of rules with different ways of determining success. They do however share one significant part, the both require you to use a physical object called a weapon.
Eidolons are not a valid option, they are specifically spelled out in their rules entry as being unique in how they function.
I think helm of the mammoth lord is written poorly. It should explicitly state that the gore attack granted is a natural weapon.
Cloak of the manta ray is written poorly as well. It says you turn into a manta ray per Beast Shape 2 when in saltwater. But then says you get a spine attack at 1d6 in addition to normal attacks. But by virtue of using Beast Shape 2, you lose your attacks in exchange for those of the form you take, which would be a manta's attacks. Which is a single tail slap.
RAW: You would get to make a single tail slap and the 1d6 spine attack with a cloak of the manta ray when in saltwater.
Tentacle cloak is better written, it states the 2 tentacles are natural attacks.
My point is, you cannot purchase a natural weapon. You can't craft it. You can't get a masterwork one. They are not manufactured weapons, and cannot use those rules. You provided examples of purchasing magic items, whose effect grants you a natural attack. Not purchasing a natural attack.
There are two separate rules. Lets look at them.
We have the following categories:
Melee attacks, Unarmed attacks, Ranged attacks, Natural attacks, Multiple attacks.
Melee attacks cover normal melee weapons and melee weapons with reach.
Unarmed attacks cover not using any weapon.
Ranged attacks cover using ranged weapons.
Natural attacks cover natural weapons.
Multiple attacks covers what you have to do to get more than a single attack in a round.
Ok, so now we know there are normal melee weapons, reach melee weapons, ranged weapons, natural weapons, and attacks without a weapon.
Where would we find such weapons? I know, the equipment chapter. Ok, this provides information on melee weapons, reach melee weapons, ranged weapons, and unarmed strikes. Where is the info on a natural weapon?
It is completely located within the Natural attacks section of the combat chapter.
Some additional information is in the Bestiary under Universal Monster Rules. But since the PC is a race that does not get HD and instead uses class levels, monster rules don't apply to them.
If you are attacking with a natural weapon, you don't "get to choose" if you can use the "melee attacks" section, or the "natural attacks" section. Natural weapons are not "normal melee weapons" they are "natural weapons". They use the rules listed for attacking with a natural weapon.
Lastly, the only thing special about an eidolon, is it has a limit of how many natural attacks it can have at a given level. Other than that, it still uses the same natural attacks rules.
I am trying to go with a theme for my character, and I don't want to use crafted weapons. I personally feel rules as written are vague. It hints that this is something that you could do. In the TWF description it goes on to say that unarmed strikes are light weapons. IUS makes you "armed". As if you had a weapon. Feral Combat says 2 things:
"Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike."
AS WELL AS EFFECTS THAT AUGMENT AN UNARMED STRIKE.
From Weapon Finesse: "Special: Natural weapons are considered light weapons."
The section you are quoting about Natural Attacks is from the Universal Monster Rules. Catfolk are not monsters, it is a playable race. Do playable races follow the same rules as monsters?
If you look at http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Attack Unarmed Attacks towards the end it references unarmed attacks being augmented by TWF.
TWF augments your unarmed strikes by giving you an extra one. So wouldn't this then work with the claws? Since you can apply feats that require IUS AND effects that augment unarmed strikes.
I feel that the spirit of the rules, though it may be unclear, is that TWF and ITWF work with Natural Weapons if you have Feral Combat Training. It also specifically points out that it works with flurry of blows, which is like a unarmed combat version of TWF.
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All creatures, PC or monster, follow the same rules.
You cannot gain extra attacks with Natural Weapons through two weapon fighting.
Two weapon fighting does not augment unarmed strikes.
Feral Combat Training does not change this.
Feral Combat Training does let you use the selected Natural Weapon during Flurry. In this case, it basically functions as a Monk Weapon.
I am trying to go with a theme for my character, and I don't want to use crafted weapons. I personally feel rules as written are vague. It hints that this is something that you could do. In the TWF description it goes on to say that unarmed strikes are light weapons. IUS makes you "armed". As if you had a weapon. Feral Combat says 2 things:
"Benefit: Choose one of your natural weapons. While using the selected natural weapon, you can apply the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite, as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike."
AS WELL AS EFFECTS THAT AUGMENT AN UNARMED STRIKE.
From Weapon Finesse: "Special: Natural weapons are considered light weapons."
The section you are quoting about Natural Attacks is from the Universal Monster Rules. Catfolk are not monsters, it is a playable race. Do playable races follow the same rules as monsters?
If you look at http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Attack Unarmed Attacks towards the end it references unarmed attacks being augmented by TWF.
TWF augments your unarmed strikes by giving you an extra one. So wouldn't this then work with the claws? Since you can apply feats that require IUS AND effects that augment unarmed strikes.
I feel that the spirit of the rules, though it may be unclear, is that TWF and ITWF work with Natural Weapons if you have Feral Combat Training. It also specifically points out that it works with flurry of blows, which is like a unarmed combat version of TWF.
Simple solution: Monk. With Feral Combat Training you can Flurry & do a full 'twf' sequence with your claws. Don't like the magicy stuff or lawfulness? Go martial Artist.
You've always been able to use two weapon fighting with unarmed strikes.
You can never get iterative attacks with natural weapons.
Feral combat training does not make TWF suddenly improve IUS, and thus natural attacks can't benefit from TWF via feral combat training.
Well, you can use TWF with with unarmed strikes, but an unarmed strike is only one weapon. In answer to the OP, you can use natural weapons as secondary attacks, applying TWF penalties to your weapon attacks. I am not aware of any way for a PC to gain iterative attacks with a natural weapon.
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Well, you can use TWF with with unarmed strikes, but an unarmed strike is only one weapon. In answer to the OP, you can use natural weapons as secondary attacks, applying TWF penalties to your weapon attacks. I am not aware of any way for a PC to gain iterative attacks with a natural weapon.You've always been able to use two weapon fighting with unarmed strikes.
You can never get iterative attacks with natural weapons.
Feral combat training does not make TWF suddenly improve IUS, and thus natural attacks can't benefit from TWF via feral combat training.
Actually there is and it's the reason I was open to the idea of this working. Multi-attack will allow a creature with natural attacks to gain an iterative attack with one of them. This was confirmed as the intent of the feat in the below quote from the blog update.
Multiattack changes the secondary attack penalty from –5 to –2. Very few animal companions actually use secondary weapons with primary weapons, so that –5 is almost never an issue, and therefore Multiattack is almost never needed.For example, the level 12 small cat in the preview has bite/claw/claw... but those are all primary attacks, so all of them are at +0/+0/+0 (plus BAB and Strength and Weapon Focus), so Multiattack does absolutely nothing for the animal. Instead, it uses the "gain an iterative attack for one of those weapons" option, which is why its bite attack has a slash and a second attack bonus. Giving the small cat Multiattack in this situation is as useless as giving Multiattack to Ezren as a bonus feat... it doesn't provide the character any benefit, and is likely to confuse someone who is looking at the stat block and trying to figure out where Multiattack has a role.
Standard secondary natural attacks in the UMR are hoof, tentacle, wing, pincers, tail slap, sting. Unless an animal has one of those natural attack types and at least one other natural attack type, Multiattack doesn't do anything for you. It was a handy feat in 3E where having multiple natural attack types meant you always had a penalty, but the PF change to the primary/secondary attack modifiers means that it's much less common.
Multiattack does not grant iterative attacks. There is a special clause for Animal Companions that they gain a second attack at -5 rather than Multiattack. What is being described in that blog update is how that rule affects small cat Animal Companions. As stated in that quote, Multiattack is useless to creatures that only have primary attacks. It specifically calls out how giving the cat Multiattack would be useless.
Do you have to use TWF rules and the like with claw blades? I mean, it makes sense rules-wise, but it sort of seems ... wrong.
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Multiattack does not grant iterative attacks. There is a special clause for Animal Companions that they gain a second attack at -5 rather than Multiattack. What is being described in that blog update is how that rule affects small cat Animal Companions. As stated in that quote, Multiattack is useless to creatures that only have primary attacks. It specifically calls out how giving the cat Multiattack would be useless.
You might want to read it again. I actually recommend going ahead and reading the whole thread. They specifically state ALL animal companions who get multiattack gain an additional attack and he specifically calls it out as an iterative attack.
Here, I'll quote it for you.
So, an animal companion could take the extra attack instead of Multiattack even if it has three natural attacks?
(I agree that Multiattack is useless, I just thought an animal companion got it anyway).Sean K Reynolds Response
Yes, because otherwise some animal companions gain nothing from that ability, and others gain something.
This is a complete change in how natural attacks work from the normal rules and makes me re-think what the intent is for natural attacks now.
Also for the record I personally don't believe the OP's idea works I'm simply open to discussing the possibility.
Again, that is only an erratum for animal companions. They are a special case in that they can take Multiattack or a special option. Quoted, with emphasis added:
So, an animal companion could take the extra attack instead of Multiattack even if it has three natural attacks?
No changes to Multiattack here. Only to ACs.