Spell like abilities, Arcane or Divine?


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The line about defaulting to sorc/wiz version doesn't really speak to whether it is arcane/divine or something else or nothing... I believe it's mainly speaking of spell level issues... Which is the whole point of giving a descending hierarchy of sorc/wiz, cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger.

I'm pretty sure there are conditional Saving Throw bonuses that apply vs. Divine/Arcane magic only.


GreenMandar wrote:
Are there any other rules that call out or interact with magic (with the exception of just spells) differently depending on whether it's arcane or divine?

Certain feats and prestige classes require some level of either arcane or divine spellcasting ability. Those are the main issues with granting SLAs the status of being arcane/divine.

I'm not sure if that was what you meant :)


Quandary wrote:
I'm pretty sure there are conditional Saving Throw bonuses that apply vs. Divine/Arcane magic only.

And penalties:

PRD, feeblemind wrote:
A creature that can cast arcane spells, such as a sorcerer or a wizard, takes a –4 penalty on its saving throw.


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Wasn't that text the basis of Sean's post? I think he said that ordering suggests that they're arcane in origin.

As long as the farce of a very low level mystic theurge is prevented, I'm fine with any answer.


Nah, Mystic Theurge still takes 1 level of wizard/sorc (so you can gain in that class) and 3 levels of cleric (4 of oracle) That is silly!

I would convince my gm to let me take (from the alt. chart in Blood of Fiends)

81 - Once per day, you can use rage on yourself as a
spell-like ability.

"Hey, I am a Wizard, what good will that do me? Rage myself? Cant even cast spells while raged!"

Then I would take Boatmage at level 2!


GreenMandar wrote:
Are there any other rules that call out or interact with magic (with the exception of just spells) differently depending on whether it's arcane or divine?

Prerequisites for some feats and prestige classes. Arcane sight.


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Thank you Drachasor. Arcane Sight suggests also that the default for spell like abilities is that they are arcane.
Link to Arcane Sight

PRD wrote:
If you concentrate on a specific creature within 120 feet of you as a standard action, you can determine whether it has any spellcasting or spell-like abilities, whether these are arcane or divine (spell-like abilities register as arcane), and the strength of the most powerful spell or spell-like ability the creature currently has available for use.

While this isn't saying they are arcane, it is saying the appear arcane. I think it would be kind of silly for them to be divine and appear arcane.


I can't wait to see the verdict on this.

Prestige Classes really should require a number of ranks in a skill equal to their intended minimum entry level to avoid situations like this.


They almost always do, that isn't really the issue, because you can pick up skill ranks in any class.

But this is allowing SLA-enabled characters to enter into Mystic Theurge with 1Wiz/5Cleric instead of needing 3Wiz/3Cleric at minimum (technically they don't even need the 1 level of Wiz, but in order to get actual benefit from MT they need it), which means that such characters are evading most of the downsides that non-SLA characters get, since they can have a 'top' spellcasting class that is only degraded by 1 level, not 3 or 4.

So a possible solution is Errata/FAQ for all such examples to reference actual spell slots, not just casting a spell (allowing SLAs to qualify).


And SKR's post on the subject said that SLAs count as arcane when that is the only spell list they are on normally OR when it is on both arcane/divine spell lists. That still allows for divine SLAs, when it is not on ANY arcane spell list.

...Although the number of corner cases from Schools, Bloodlines, Archetypes, etc, which mix up spell lists really bring alot of 'normally' divine-only spells into 'sometimes arcane spells', and thus arcane SLA territory.


Drachasor wrote:
(...) suggest a spell needs to explicitly be said to be from a divine source to be divine.

That is correct, because a divine magic could get lost, so if it would be divine, that must be explicitly told.

Quandary wrote:
And Paizo has specifically said that there is more than just arcane and divine: psychic magic

In Psionics unleashed there are "psi-like abilities", and "(...)Unlike spells, which are cast, psionic powers are manifested to achieve their effect.(...) The innate power of the mind is present within all creatures. But it is those who choose to take levels in psionic classes who can unlock and develop this immense power contained within. ".

EDIT: After reading again I think: a part of every magic is "psionic", but only those who learn levels in psionic classes use "psionic magic".

And in FAQ it was said, that spell-like abilities could be arcane and divine - there was nothing said, that it could be psionicpowers.


Quandary wrote:
The line about defaulting to sorc/wiz version doesn't really speak to whether it is arcane/divine or something else or nothing... I believe it's mainly speaking of spell level issues... Which is the whole point of giving a descending hierarchy of sorc/wiz, cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger.

This.

I haven't read anything that SKR has written in the FAQ that says that SLAs are suddenly arcane or divine.

-James


james maissen wrote:
Quandary wrote:
The line about defaulting to sorc/wiz version doesn't really speak to whether it is arcane/divine or something else or nothing... I believe it's mainly speaking of spell level issues... Which is the whole point of giving a descending hierarchy of sorc/wiz, cleric, druid, bard, paladin, and ranger.

This.

I haven't read anything that SKR has written in the FAQ that says that SLAs are suddenly arcane or divine.

-James

What you and Quandary want to believe it is trying to say is immaterial. The text clearly says they are treated as sorcerer/wizard spells if possible, which are arcane. It's also clearly talking about CLASSES here, not just the spell list. This also fits in with other facts about spells and how divine spells are a bit more precisely defined as such than arcane spells. And with the fact that spell-like abilities can qualify you for arcane strike.

Grand Lodge

Arcane Strike is actually lower on the list of concerns in my mind.

PrC requirements are higher.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Arcane Strike is actually lower on the list of concerns in my mind.

PrC requirements are higher.

Easy way to stop that. Houserule that Spell-likes don't count. RAW, I believe they do, especially if we have Devs talking about how Spell-likes are good for feats.


The quote regarding monster spell-like abilities being wizard/sorcery .... where is that quote? CRB or beastiary?


I asked the design team this question yesterday at the Pathfinder Rules Q and A.

The answer given was that they are generally considered to be arcane.

I brought up the mystic theurge, but don't remember the answer well enough to state it here.


gourry187 wrote:
The quote regarding monster spell-like abilities being wizard/sorcery .... where is that quote? CRB or beastiary?

CRB just has language repeatedly indicating that Spell-likes are like spells in all ways except where otherwise noted. There's only a little text in the CRB on spell-likes at all.

The Bestiary has the Wizard/Sorcerer->Cleric->Druid->Etc text. It also has a much more detailed section on spell-likes.

Paizo Employee Official Rules Response

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FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qt6

Spell-Like Abilities: How do I know whether a spell-like ability is arcane or divine?

Most spell-like abilities should be considered arcane, unless the spell in question only appears on the standard* cleric or druid spell list (such as holy smite) or something about the creature strongly indicates its spell-like abilities should be considered divine (such as a solar's spell-like abilities, as a solar usually directly serves a deity).

("Standard spell list" meaning "not altered in some way by an archetype, prestige class, racial ability, and so on.")

Grand Lodge

Whoa.

Did not see that coming.


O.O

Hmmm... I guess that means level 3 eldritch knight is legit then.


If somebody knows the actual Paizo response to the early entry Mystic Theurge/Casting PrC (sub)question, I'd be interested to hear that.
That felt like more of an issue than Arcane Strike.
And that seems like if it's undesired, it could be dealth with separately from the SLA ruling itself,
rather, as a FAQ/Errata for the PrC pre-reqs clarifying that they need qualifying spell slots, which SLAs don't count for...????

I mean, I've always actually thought that Mystic Theurge and Eldritch Knight were perhaps overly penalizing with the number of split levels you need to get into them... But it feels 'off' if only 'certain' races can easily bypass those, and in fact have been able to do so all along, while other classes must deal with the full level slog. When they're clearly based around progressing caster classes that you have taken before entering the PrC, it seems dubious to allow SLAs to qualify. Specifically, the PrCs have a 'de facto' requirement that you have class levels in a caster class since you must select an existing casting class to advance via the PrC's castinga advancement, but that casting class (or specific number of levels of it) is not technically enunciated as an offical pre-requisite... Thus allowing SLA races to only take 1 level of the caster class before entering the PrC advancing that class' casting.


Sry for digging out this old thread, but I have a question. If you want to create a Mystic Theurge using an Aasimar, who can cast Spear of Purity (cleric/oracle 2) instead of Daylight (Rolled from the D% chart in the Pathfinder Player Companion - Blood of Angels) as an SLA.

Spear of Purity can only be cast by cleric/oracles and deals positive energy damage...

- can this spell count as a true "divine spell/SLA"?

- Would this allow an Aasimar to enter the Mystic Theurge by Sorcerer 4/Oracle 1?


Thread Necro!

Yes to both.

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