Goblin Squad Member
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Regardless of whether old PCs will be an option, I do think every town needs a crusty old prospector dude, who tells the PCs to get off his porch, and that they don't know nuthin' bout proper adventurin' like in his day.
"Whaur's yer ten foot pole, BOY? How far d'yer expec' ta git, without yer TEN FOOT POLE? Huh?"
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Goblin Squad Member
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Perhaps that is where we are not meeting, I want to portray a child character, not simply have a character that looks childish. Perhaps this is just another aspect that is dissappearing in the storm of the new generation of RPGers.
Honestly, I don't see how pedophilia has anything to do with it.
GW have decided that the only reason you would want to play a child character is because you are a paedophile (see the post by its CEO above, where he says that anyone wanting to play a child character for any reason creeps him out).
They evidently find it difficult to get over that basic assumption, or to produce child avatars that are unable to be stripped to skimpy underwear or dressed in sexy clothing.
The fact that the 'new model' halflings and gnomes might be seen as child-like has evidently passed them by. They took the decision to use more childlike images for these races (compare them to the older AD&D versions), yet are perfectly happy to use such avatars in their game.
I'm sorry to say that this approach is hypocritical and illogical. Yes, there is a problem with online paedophilia. No, it should not be promoted by using 'sexy' child images. But that does not mean either than everyone who thinks playing a child character might be interesting is a paedophile (or stupid), and nor that every graphically-produced child image online needs to be portrayed as being 'sexy'.
The children in other games (Dragon Age is an example) are examples of how children can be portrayed. You don't need to look at Korean and Japanese versions as your example of how it must be done.
Yes, I feel strongly about this. I actually don't think that portraying children in PFO is a good idea, but not because I assume that any child image is going to be used by paedophiles for nefarious purposes. Nor would I assume that anyone who disagrees is a paedophile or otherwise 'creeps me out'.
I thought we had left this sort of 'won't somebody think of the children'/'RPGs are the work of the devil'/'we have to design the game around small-minded bigots' rubbish behind us in the defeat of campaigns by the likes of BADD in the 1980s.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...GW have decided that the only reason you would want to play a child character is because you are a paedophile (see the post by its CEO above, where he says that anyone wanting to play a child character for any reason creeps him out)...
Don't be absurd, and stop asserting fictions and alleging they are quotes. It is dishonest, unworthy, and will provide no return.
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Goblin Squad Member
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GW have decided that the only reason you would want to play a child character is because you are a paedophile (see the post by its CEO above, where he says that anyone wanting to play a child character for any reason creeps him out).This is what he said:
And TBFH, advocacy in favor of children in Pathfinder Online creeps me the hell out.
I can't deduce either of your two claims from that statement.
1) It does not suggest that any proposer of children as player avatars is a paedophile.
2) It does not suggest that the people who want to play children for non-sexual reasons are creepy.
also,
After reading mr. Dancey's posts and seeing the examples of armor in the recent video, I see no reason to believe that halflings and gnomes will look like children dressed in skimpy outfits, wearing lipgloss and having overtly suggestive animations.
I don't see the hypocricy.
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Frankly, Despite thinking it would nice to play a child character, I would have a problem if it was all about kids wearing skimpy and sexy armor. I didn't expect skimpy from goblinworks and am happy about them not doing skimpy.
However, Ryan's comment does imply that he doesn't see any reason to want to play a child character the he doesn't see as creepy, whether those possible reasons are pedophilic or creepy in some other way is left unspecified, but basically he did say he finds my desire to play a kid as creepy.
I don't agree, but then, I don't agree with most people so I won't hold it against him. But it does irritate me that people are getting more and more afraid of small issues and the doings of a minority of people. The way I see it, there will always be someone who feels insulted by, someone who hates it, and someone who will darkly andcreepily twist, any peice of artwork, so I just don't see the point in worrying about it. Of course, this a country where people will sue a company for having the parmesan and paprika reversed (if it were my country, that would get kicked out of court as a waste of the courts time within 2 minutes)
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Goblin Squad Member
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...GW have decided that the only reason you would want to play a child character is because you are a paedophile (see the post by its CEO above, where he says that anyone wanting to play a child character for any reason creeps him out)...Don't be absurd, and stop asserting fictions and alleging they are quotes. It is dishonest, unworthy, and will provide no return.
When someone says that anyone advocating something 'creeps me the hell out', it is fairly obvious that they believe that person to have something creepy in mind. If not, they would not be 'creeped out'. Yes, it is possible that we are talking about a simple psychological fear of people advocating child characters, but it is unlikely in context. It is far more likely that he is 'creeped out' because he thinks the advocate is doing so for 'creepy' reasons.
In this situation, we are fairly obviously talking about paedophilia. I can't see anyone being 'creeped out' by someone advocating using child characters if it was that they were difficult to render or too small for the armour modelling.
It is a post that says; 'If you advocate child characters then it is creepy, so arguing in their favour you are labelling yourself in the most negative way possible.'
Now it is entirely possibly that Mr Dancey used the phrase in error, or meant something else (in which case I invite him to clear up exactly what he meant), but the phrase used at face value is extremely offensive to anyone thinking to advocate children as characters.
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Goblin Squad Member
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When someone says that anyone advocating something 'creeps me the hell out', it is fairly obvious that they believe that person to have something creepy in mind.
...
It is a post that says; 'If you advocate child characters then it is creepy, so arguing in their favour you are labelling yourself in the most negative way possible.'
Again, I don't agree. Firstly, he didn't say that anyone advocating it creeps him out. He said advocacy of it does. It was directed against the subject, not the proponent. Secondly, dislike of the discussed subject does not (necessarily) imply questioning of the motives of the proponent.
Advocacy of a subject may creep one person out because he considers one set of implications of that subject. The proponent might, obviously, very well concider a completely different set of implications. If the first person says that 'advocacy of this subject creeps me out', it does not automatically follow that 'you are creepy for advocating this subject'.
Putting words into other people's mouths is risky and unfair, especially when it concerns a sensitive subject matter.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So you are saying that he is creeped out just by people advocating it, but not because of the implications of that advocacy? That doesn't make any sort of sense.
You are 'creeped out' (or subject to any other emotion) by something because of the implications of it. It is not simply the act of advocacy that is 'creepy', but the fact that such advocacy suggests behaviour or sympathies that creep him out.
I don't accept that Mr Dancey has a fundamental fear of the act of advocacy itself, even in this situation. That would suggest a very complex psychological disorder.
As to the sensitivity of the subject, I agree. That is why I find it extremely offensive for the CEO of a gaming company to suggest what he has.
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Goblin Squad Member
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So Billy, do you like gladiator MMO's?
Back to the models, this thread has made me do a 180 on the need for sliders. I got no issue with swapping as long as there are many options to swap. Body types for example, 10 for humans broken across 3 different heights and maybe 6 for demi humans broken across 2. A good 20-25 heads and hair styles per race that actually look different from each other and of course full palettes on hair and skin colors.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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@Sadurian PM'd me directly last week about ths making the same accusations and here's my response, verbatim with typos included:
Sent Mon, Jul 15, 2013, 09:15 PM
From Ryan Dancey
To Sadurian
Subject Re: Your post about children in PFO
Do you have any idea how ridiculous you sound?
The problem is not people who might want to play a child character for any of a hundred legit reasons. The problem is the small number of pedophiles who want to play them for sexually deviant purposes.
No lawsuit will be filed over harmless Roleplaying, No FBI search warrant will be served for innocent storytelling. No PR fiasco will embroil my company, my staff, me personally, or my friends and partners at Paizo because someone tells a charming story about a child character.
But all of those things are likely, nay, inevitable, because of what the small number of sexually deviant people who seek a most let for their twisted desires will do of we let them.
That us compounded by the knife-edge of ease by which a reporter, on a slow news day, sees a video where some child characters are murdered into a sensationalist explosion of unwanted media, advocacy and government attention.
Such should be manifestly, rampantly obvious to anyone who has spent any time around any public anonymous Internet forum and the modern "crucify them" media complex.
RyanD
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So now I'll add that continuing to advocate on this topic after this exchange TBFH creeps me the hell out too.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Ryan Dancey
I'm surprised you wanted to publicise that.
Given that most CEOs would try to deal with complaints in a mature and professional manner, telling a customer 'Do you have any idea how ridiculous you sound?' in response to the raising of concerns really puts you into a different league. Not a good one.
You still fail to deal with what I said, instead swerving off to attack internet paedophilia. You have not addressed my concern that your broad comment that anyone even advocating playing as a child 'creeps you out'. Not makes you concerned for the game, angers you or frustrates you, 'creeps you out'. Not that paedophiles creep you out, but that someone suggesting including child characters creeps you out.
You are, of course, at liberty to trample over any complaints that your own language and terminology is offensive. You have done. I would have preferred that you deal with it constructively, but you are obviously struggling with an enormous ego that cannot be overcome in order to accommodate complaints. God help anyone who has a complaint when this game is launched, I hope you will have people who understand customer service to answer such complaints instead of dealing with them personally.
You obviously have little faith in your programmers to be able to design child avatars that cannot be depicted in a sexual manner. This despite children appearing in non-sexual avatars in other MMOs. I don't recall a wave of media concern over them, but you seem to believe that, if they have to provide child characters, PFO will somehow have to make child avatars that will cater to paedophiles.
In short, Mr Dancey, you are a projecting a very surprising public image for the CEO of a company.
Please explain further why this 'creeps you out' if you are defending that it is not because you believe anyone defending the position is doing so for unsavoury reasons. Maybe you use the term 'creep me out' in a different way to the majority. I would also be interested to hear why continuing to debate it 'creeps you out'. Either you are continuing to label those who argue with you as suspicious, or you are creeped out by debate and advocacy.
I will say again, however, that I see your comment as offensive to anyone who advocates having child characters.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You have been calling Ryan out for about 2 pages now, clearly looking for a public response on THIS thread. And yes you are definitely insulted out of proportion to what was said and yes it's really creepy. We get it, your absolutely positively NOT a pedophile under any circumstances.
I actually enjoy the fact that the "big guns" of this project not only come here to give us updates but engage in the occasional off the cuff remark and bond with the player base. It's a beautiful thing we won't have anymore if we take them to the shed for posting on message boards like normal people.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Sadurian, PLEASE DROP IT...or continue it with Ryan *only* in private. Even this debate could be spun by irresponsible, bored, or ill-meaning folk into something that could harm GW at this early stage of their development.
I want to play this game, which means GW has to produce it, and I could not possibly care less about what words Ryan used; he's explained the issues with child characters clearly. I do care that he's looking out for the best for his company, his game, and, by extension, his players-someday-to-be.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yes, I will drop it.
I responded because Ryan Dancey decided to publish his PM on this thread. I think I was entitled to do so on the forum as he had evidently decided to 'make it all public'.
I am quite prepared to continue any discussion by PM or email, either with GW or with Paizo.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Sadurian and Pap: You should consider that we all express goodwill towards each other, even though we may disagree or not fully agree with various ways of communicating. I think the topic has a serious side to it that has been made clear and we'd do well to walk away and discuss something less dark ie games for entertainment and lightness of being.
==
Back on topic: OP: What are you preliminary thougths on the graphics and art and animation in the vid? I'm too lacking in knowledge of this area to be able to form an opinion?!
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ AvenaOats
The graphics look good for a early build, I'm estimating the Poly count of a character wearing clothes to be between 40k to 70k.
I'm guessing they are using the Biped setup, though I could be wrong and they are using CAT (Character Animation Toolkit).
And it looks like the hand bones are using the Mitten setup, (1 or 3 bones for all four fingers, and 1 or 3 bones for the thumb).
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Goblin Squad Member
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And it looks like the hand bones are using the Mitten setup, (1 or 3 bones for all four fingers, and 1 or 3 bones for the thumb).
I just watched the video from Making Movies again, paying particular attention to the hands and fingers. I remember a number of people commented on the fingers/hands in this picture from Till I Reach the Highest Ground. They certainly looked good - proportional and at the right angles - to me. I especially liked the hands on the Troll (or whatever it is) at the end.
Thanks for pointing this out and inspiring me to go back and take a closer look.
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Goblin Squad Member
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This picture Confirms the number of Bones in the hand; 1 Palm bone, 3 bones for all 4 fingers, and 3 bones for the thumbs.
The only way it'll get proven wrong is if we see an in game render with a character using a complex hand gesture, at which point. The fingers have 3 bones each, and not sharing the bones.
I know most of the basic reasons GW would go with the Mitten setup, and I would have to agree with it at this time.
As long as the character creation is as in-depth or more than GW2's, I will be happy.
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Goblin Squad Member
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If you want to cover it, cover it in another thread. Not here mate.
.......
(As a side note, Ryan, I find it interesting that you basically called the staff of Paizo creepy, given that they included detailed rules for child characters in the recent Ultimate Campaign sourcebook. Perhaps you should learn something about the culture of the people you're making this game for?)
But there is a difference between a private game played with friends than a public game played with strangers.
If you took a percentage of people would be be fine with it, or not fine by it, the Majority would likely be "Not Fine" with it, and likely find it creepy........
we're the innovators of the world, the ones who still use our imaginations and see what could be and PUSH BOUNDARIES.
yes, gamers are innovative. But some boundaries should never be pushed, EVER.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I'm confused about why the CEO shouldn't be a businessman, or what Gaming cred isn't present.
I didn't consider the porn angle because I was using cached thoughts regarding why the European version of Fallout 2 didn't have children, and why the children in Fallout 3 were undamageable in all versions.
Black Dog Publishing and Max Imprints exist for a very real reason, and Introversion was nearly destroyed because they were falsely accused of a crime. A good businessman does not risk ruin for a small marginal return.
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Honestly my only problem with Ryan's comment is that it implies his inability to accept that some individual (namely myself) may have wanted it for completely none creepy reasons. He pointed out things I hadn't considered and while I may not have made the same choice (or agree with certain evidential perceptions) I can understand and see why he's making it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Ryan Dancey
LOL
@ DarkLightHitomi
It's a hypersensitive topic. I don't know what your level of experience with it is, but I can tell you from mine that mere approximation to it can make someone react very strongly whenever the subject pops up. I can tell you for a fact that if RD has been anywhere near an actual case of that to someone he cares about and has seen the damage first hand he is never going to back down from his stance and never going to apologize.
Hate to put words in Ryan's mouth, but I'm pretty sure that's what is going on here and add to that RD is clearly appalled by what he believes to be a rampant evil in his own industry that promotes psuedo child porn.
So yeah, let's all let it go.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ AvenaOats
The graphics look good for a early build, I'm estimating the Poly count of a character wearing clothes to be between 40k to 70k.
I'm guessing they are using the Biped setup, though I could be wrong and they are using CAT (Character Animation Toolkit).
And it looks like the hand bones are using the Mitten setup, (1 or 3 bones for all four fingers, and 1 or 3 bones for the thumb).
Thanks and good to know. There was a mention of Wayne Reynolds not drawing characters wrists and ankles, I saw in some other forum. What do you make of that criticism? And if true (in the art?) it has not made it into these (graphical) models?
=Jerrycnh wrote on:
Jan 15, 2013, 10:01 PM
Okay, so... now that I'm $175 poorer, I feel like I've earned the right to raise my voice in this chorus. ;) And I just want to put it out there to Paizo: I hope you don't really see "crowdforging" as "taking a bunch of polls about your own ideas and having people vote".
That's not Crowdforging, that's you releasing your own game with player priorities taken into account. Not that that's a bad thing, but at the end of the day, it's still all your own ideas, your own creative input, and your own sense of how things should be.
I would respectfully submit that Crowdforging can be so much more. :) It should begin with 8,732 surveys stating "What do YOU want to see in this game?" and drawing a lot on us for the creative process, and with that mindset in mind, I'd like to submit my own ideas and hopes for the game a bit early, and invite my fellow backers to use this thread to do the same.
Three things I desperately want to see in this game:
1) Ultimate flexibility in character demographics. At MINIMUM, what I mean by this is the ability to play child characters and elderly characters.
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No, it's not. It's really not. I pray for you to never find out the difference. Ignorance can be very bliss.Yeah I mean It's exactly the same thing with Apple and sexual content in general ....or religion....or political statements...or any opinion whatsoever.
The only difference is that people have an instinct about protecting kids, thus any emotions involving anger or fear or similar are felt more strongly, otherwise they aren't much different, people will still throw a fit if they feel they can "justify" doing so, never mind whether it is right of them to do so.
Obviously Ryan wants to avoid any fits being thrown. Which makes sense.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
@ AvenaOats
The graphics look good for a early build, I'm estimating the Poly count of a character wearing clothes to be between 40k to 70k.
I'm guessing they are using the Biped setup, though I could be wrong and they are using CAT (Character Animation Toolkit).
And it looks like the hand bones are using the Mitten setup, (1 or 3 bones for all four fingers, and 1 or 3 bones for the thumb).Thanks and good to know. There was a mention of Wayne Reynolds not drawing characters wrists and ankles, I saw in some other forum. What do you make of that criticism? And if true (in the art?) it has not made it into these (graphical) models?
I don't know about Wayne Reynolds not drawing characters wrists and ankles, so I can't make a proper call on any criticism.
When a character model is made from concept art, the concept artist has to provide 2-3 drawings of the character in a T-pose; 1 side, 1 front, and or 1 back drawing.Position the concept art pieces in the 3D modeling software, and build the character from there, always checking with the concept art against the 3D model as he/she makes it.
This Image Confirms the number of Bones in the hand; 1 Palm bone, 3 bones for all 4 fingers, and 3 bones for the thumbs.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm curious as to the number of customisation options we players will be getting in EE, and later in OE.
I'm figuring a minimum of four sliders/dials;
Race, Gender, Hair, and Head/face.
Though I would be happy if they included sub-head/face options along with body and or sub-body sliders/dials.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Nihimon
Height and weight would fall under body customisation, and given the Quick view in the movie.
I think we players will only have one body option for each race and gender combo at the moment.
Which I would add is sad, but not bad for Alpha builds.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Height and weight would require either
A) Morphing (which will not be used during this time)
or
B) Swap method using Alternative body models, which means they have to make each armour N times to cover every race/gender combo, times X times for each alternate body for each race/gender combo.
I figure the number of starting bodies will be 3 times the number of Race/gender combos at the start.
Though I will admit there is a Hack they could do for Height and or weight and it's using the scale factor of a model, but it's poor system design, and animations might get messed up with it's new scale.